2012 MLB Thread (Cabrera Gets Triple Crown, first since Yaz 1967)

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I have no problem with Runge's call and I had a ton of problems with Joyce's call. Call me an old fashion curmudgeon, but in a situation like that you don't let a judgement call break up a perfect game. If he didn't want it to be a strike, he shouldn't have started to swing a pitch three feet outside in the dirt.

There is further no reason to gripe since he decided to argue the call rather than run the play out. Given how far that ball got away, There's a better than even chance he gets to first if he runs rather than stand there whining about the call.

Royals fans will be ready to burn down the ballpark combining Humber's perfect game with the current losing streak, since we waived Humber in December 2010. Granted, no one saw this coming much less Humber turning into a serviceable back of the rotation guy. But it still stings.

I think you are a good person and a good fan, but I HATE this attitude in sports. The ump/ref blows an obvious call and people try to justify it because the player did something wrong.

There is NOTHING wrong with starting your swing at a pitch outside. It's called a check swing. Now there are borderline check swing calls. If this was a borderline check swing call, then nobody is upset.

This wasn't borderline. There isn't a replay angle that exists that shows this was even close to a swing. The umpires job is to get it right. It's not to get caught up in the moment and act like a fan. It's to stay calm and do your job from the first pitch to the last. Has a team ever scored 4 runs with 2 outs and no men on base? (I'll save you the research, they have) Forget the perfect game, no hitter, whatever. The guy simply blew the call. It is only a perfect game because the hitter doesn't have the same recourse the defense does. (appeal to the base umpire)

It doesn't matter what I think. The game is in the books and Humbert will always have a perfect game. In my mind, he will have never had a perfect game. Gallaraga did, Humbert did not. The difference between the two performances? zilch. Both terrific games from guys who won't be competing for Cy Young awards.

Life goes on. I'm not going to be blaming the hitter for initially being fooled and checking his swing though. I'm going to blame the umpire for blowing an obvious call.

[cartman]

TroyF - The Al Sharpton of ref/umpire/official bashing. Anytime there is any kind of thing like this, he is sure to be there.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I just mean in general.

I seem to remember Pujols batting about .425 vs us and homering every 7 AB. And don't get me started on Lance Fuckin Berkman.

[molson]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The umpires job is to get it right.

And the pitcher's job is to get people out - and it's an amazing accomplishment when they do that perfectly over even a single game. But if the umpire makes a mistake you create an entire alternative sports history in your head. There must be thousands of different results in that alternative history. Which is actually kind of intriguing. There's probably wacky subplots, like maybe Hideki Irabu ends up an awesome pitcher or something if he got a better strike zone in his first few games.

And Humber made a mistake on the last pitch - since mistakes should be disregarded, maybe you can just disregard that too and the game's perfect again? And I didn't watch the game, but were there any really bad, even terrible swings (as bad as a missed umpire call on the level of mistakes) that created "mistake outs" that maybe we shouldn't consider either? Or if we want to only consider player success/failure/skill in the game but isolate out everything else, was the sun in anyone's eyes, were there any injuries/illnesses/personal issues that unfairly impacted players? It seems to be there's going to be a ton of chance/luck in any sport as complicated as baseball, especially when it comes to a small sample size accomplishment like a perfect game. I don't get why an umpire can tarnish the whole thing but the millions of other random factors - many of which have nothing to do with the skill of the players or even how they played that day - doesn't.

[Big Fo]

This is unfair on the team that is behind but in these perfect game/umpire call situations, I'd rather see the pitcher get the call especially when the pitcher's team is winning by a handful of runs anyway and the call is unlikely to affect who wins or loses the game.

Gallaraga getting wronged annoyed me a lot more than Humber getting a fortunate call did.

[dawgfan]

I'm having a hard time understanding why wanting the calls to conform to the rules is controversial. Momentum is not something that the arbiters of sport should be influenced by, only the rules.

I actually don't really give a shit that the M's got perfecto'd, I just think this one is slightly tainted. And given how many calls get botched in every game, it's not exactly a big deal. But I do like games to be called correctly.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Who is AJ Burnett?

Some schlub that the Yankees paid us 20 million to take.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by molson

And the pitcher's job is to get people out - and it's an amazing accomplishment when they do that perfectly over even a single game. But if the umpire makes a mistake you create an entire alternative sports history in your head. There must be thousands of different results in that alternative history. Which is actually kind of intriguing. There's probably wacky subplots, like maybe Hideki Irabu ends up an awesome pitcher or something if he got a better strike zone in his first few games.

And Humber made a mistake on the last pitch - since mistakes should be disregarded, maybe you can just disregard that too and the game's perfect again? And I didn't watch the game, but were there any really bad, even terrible swings (as bad as a missed umpire call on the level of mistakes) that created "mistake outs" that maybe we shouldn't consider either? Or if we want to only consider player success/failure/skill in the game but isolate out everything else, was the sun in anyone's eyes, were there any injuries/illnesses/personal issues that unfairly impacted players? It seems to be there's going to be a ton of chance/luck in any sport as complicated as baseball, especially when it comes to a small sample size accomplishment like a perfect game. I don't get why an umpire can tarnish the whole thing but the millions of other random factors - many of which have nothing to do with the skill of the players or even how they played that day - doesn't.

When an error of skill happens, the game is no longer perfect, right? We can agree on this, right? If the sun gets in an eye and a ball gets dropped, it's either a hit or an error, but either way the perfection is gone. That's part of the beauty of what makes a perfect game so rare. It's a team feat and it's something everyone who has a part in should feel terrific about.

And here I am being a jerk, right? Because I want the umpire to do his job. Again, forget the perfect game, that game was not over today. It should have been a guy on first with 2 out and the M's down 4. Now of course the M's aren't scoring four runs, right? Of course. And I'm pretty sure the Cardinals still don't have a chance after being down to their last strike in October, right? If that happens to end a WS, is it ok then? When is it ok for a ref to blow a call?

The people here saying that they like this more than the Joyce botched call confuse me. BOTH calls were CLEARLY wrong. BOTH calls impacted the history of the game.

Who cares what I think? It makes people feel really good to pretend the guy actually had a perfect game today. It's a wonderful story. Maybe he promised a dying kid with cancer that he would throw him a perfect game and now the cancer is cured. I'm good with anyone enjoying the guys perfect game. Me? Sorry, it was an exceptionally well pitched game that is only "perfect" in the record books. This isn't me projecting a guys career if a strike zone was different his first two games. If you want to believe I'm doing that, good for you. People can get pissed at me all they want for my opinions, but I can tell you they are consistent. It doesn't matter if it's for my team or for yours. It doesn't matter if it's soccer, baseball, basketball or hockey. It doesn't matter if the call decided a championship or a meaningless game between two garbage teams.

I want to right calls to be made by the guys making hundreds of thousands of dollars to make them. I want video replay to be used to help them get the calls right. And when an ump or ref does something exceptionally bad (such as get so caught up in the hoopla of a perfect game that he stops doing his job correctly like happened today), I want him called out on it.


Joyce went through hell because he missed the call. The reason is because it "took away" a perfect game from someone. I believe he deserved the criticism (not the death threats) and that he handled it with class. This guy is going to get a pass. Because he gave a kid the perfect game. Both calls were equally botched. Both calls deserve someone saying what happened. If people get pissed off that some of us are saying that, so be it.

[PilotMan]

All this conjecture is interesting, but from the one center field camera that I saw, even though he pulled it back fast, and didn't swing hard, the bat clearly got to at least the forward part of the plate.

It's the kind of call that is maybe a 50-50 call for the ump, and maybe if he doesn't call it, it goes to the 1st base ump, but in this case, the ump made the call, and that was that.



Shadows being what they are, you can see that the shadow at least is past the plate. The swing was close enough that maybe 50 percent of the time the ump makes that call and the other 50 the first base ump makes it. Either way, all of you whining about it not being close at all need to lighten up. Let him have his day in history.

[Scoobz0202]

I agree with Troy for the most part. He pretty much said exactly what I think. Nobody is rooting against a perfect game. Hell, even the Mariner's fans were perfect game fans by the 8th or so inning. Yet, this is probably where I differ from the majority, when something like that final call happens I instantly think, "The fuck, that sucks," because now every time I think of this perfect game I will think of that final out.

I don't care that it was a terrible pitch and that Ryan had no business even checking his swing on it. You don't alter the rules of the game so we can all get a special little memory. How is this fair to the other team? Where do you draw the line? How out do you have to be at first for it to go from a "close call that you have to give to the pitcher pitching a perfect game'" to an out. How big should the strike zone be for a pitcher throwing a perfect game in the later innings? You can't do that. It feels cheap. We yell and scream about the umps being shit all season, but when they miss a call to fit a special narrative it's okay?

That all being said, I am assuming that it was as clear cut a check swing as I remember. I haven't seen a replay since the game, and they didn't show any special ones. I really hope he went. Why haven't we seen a side shot that we see EVERY other time. Have they released one yet?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

All this conjecture is interesting, but from the one center field camera that I saw, even though he pulled it back fast, and didn't swing hard, the bat clearly got to at least the forward part of the plate.

It's the kind of call that is maybe a 50-50 call for the ump, and maybe if he doesn't call it, it goes to the 1st base ump, but in this case, the ump made the call, and that was that.



Shadows being what they are, you can see that the shadow at least is past the plate. The swing was close enough that maybe 50 percent of the time the ump makes that call and the other 50 the first base ump makes it. Either way, all of you whining about it not being close at all need to lighten up. Let him have his day in history.

The center field cam is the WORST camera angle to see that from. Shadows, especially from that distance can deceive. It's all about the angle of the sun. I saw a few side angle shots and in those it was not close. It was not 50/50. It was more like 95/5.

That's why unless the home plate ump is 150% certain, the first base ump is the one who makes that call on an appeal. There is no way in hell this was 100% certain he swung. The ump simply got caught up in the moment and made a horrific mistake. Nobody wants to act like they are being a dick about it and take anything away from Humber, so everyone is giving the ump a free pass. (see Ryan's comments after the game)

Again, congrats to the kid. Great game pitched, just not perfect. I'll get over it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Ah, a return to normal in KC. Mid-April and we're already eliminated from the playoffs. At least we have the All-Star game to look forward to this summer!

[cartman]

How were the rules of the game altered? It is entirely up to the umps to decide if it is a swing or a check swing. There is no definition in the MLB rule book of what defines a check swing. Every ump has their own method of determining a swing. Before you can say this call was a travesty, you'd first have to know how the ump has ruled on similar swing attempts in the past. No way you can do that off of one example.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by TroyF;2645318[I

]The ump[/i]........made a horrific mistake.

Horrific?

Kinda contradicting yourself there aren't you? Shit happens in sports and the umps/refs are a part of it too. They are as much a part of the game as the Astros fucked up centerfield hill. Why not computerize everything and standardize all the stadiums so that it's always a level playing field and nothing will ever go wrong? Because it wouldn't be baseball.

[Lathum]

Boo. Mets game postponed. Had a bunch of work to do around the house and was really looking forward to listening to the game.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by cartman

How were the rules of the game altered? It is entirely up to the umps to decide if it is a swing or a check swing. There is no definition in the MLB rule book of what defines a check swing. Every ump has their own method of determining a swing. Before you can say this call was a travesty, you'd first have to know how the ump has ruled on similar swing attempts in the past. No way you can do that off of one example.

If this ump ruled every check swing this way, he wouldn't be in the major leagues. It's fine. For those who think horrible umping is just part of the game, I am ok with it. I understand your position (bad calls are part of what makes sports great, etc), I hope you understand mine. (their job is to get the damned calls right and if they don't to deal with the heat) Lets get the thread back to the actual games and teams discussion. The umps aren't the reason the Rangers are so dominant, the umps aren't the reason Boston sucks right now. Matt Weiters is a stud and King Albert is struggling.

We can all be happy no matter if we think Humbert threw a real perfect game or not.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Shadows being what they are, you can see that the shadow at least is past the plate.

Uh, no. Look at the shadow of Ryan and the direction it's going. Unless you think Ryan himself was well past the plate, that shadow only proves that the bat hadn't made it over the plate yet.

[cmp]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The ump simply got caught up in the moment and made a horrific mistake.

Horrific? Sure, maybe it was a missed call but to call it horrific is ridiculous.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Boo. Mets game postponed. Had a bunch of work to do around the house and was really looking forward to listening to the game.

Same with the Nationals. I don't have cable, and Sunday is the day the games are on broadcast television and for once I am home Sunday afternoon. So, of course, the game is postponed. Just my luck.

[DaddyTorgo]

Test...

[cartman]

Rangers win in the 11th to take the series 3-1 over Detroit. Next up, the Yankees come to town for 3 games followed by another 3 against Tampa Bay. I wish I could be there tomorrow night to see them honor Pudge Rodriguez before the game.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by stevew

I seem to remember Pujols batting about .425 vs us and homering every 7 AB. And don't get me started on Lance Fuckin Berkman.

Well, we took 2 of 3 in our first series against them this year, so it's all good.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by cmp

Horrific? Sure, maybe it was a missed call but to call it horrific is ridiculous.

This is TroyF you're talking about.

[larrymcg421]

Comparing this to the Joyce call is pretty silly. The Joyce call is 100% without a doubt the wrong call. There is no legitimate argument otherwise. Here we have a judgment call. I disagree with the judgment for sure, but I even more strongly disagree with the sentiment that the umpire should err on the side of the pitcher in a situation like this. To me, that's just as bad as saying it's wrong for a hitter to try and bunt in that situation.

[k0ruptr]

[tarcone]

Looks like he went to me.

[Buccaneer]

Easily went to me.

[jbergey22]

Yup, same here. Looks like a swing.

Just goes to show how tough that call really is.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by cmp

Horrific? Sure, maybe it was a missed call but to call it horrific is ridiculous.

Ridiculous? Sure, maybe it was a tad harsh but to call it ridiculous is a travesty.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Just watched the replay of that check swing and yeah...it was a ball, but he went. He had no business swinging at all with a ball that far outside.

Originally Posted by Hammer755

I've not seen a single replay yet where it looks like he went.

Originally Posted by k0ruptr

Exhibit A, your honor.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Looks like he went to me.

Assuming that replay is legit, it's a clear swing through the zone.

[larrymcg421]

I have to say that's a pretty ballsy pitch with a 3-2 count, 2 outs, and a perfect game on the line.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Exhibit A, your honor.

Yup. Good call.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Exhibit A, your honor.

Consider me still not convinced.

Look at the shadow instead of the bat. It clearly never breaks 90 degrees.

[PurdueBrad]

This may be colored by the fact that I was a pitcher and have played in numerous softball leagues where people try waaaaaaaaaay too hard to work walks but I always give the benefit of the doubt on a close check swing to the pitcher and so I'm definitely calling a strike there. Honestly though, I also think based on the last couple replays I've seen, I may not have to rely on benefit of the doubt, I'm fairly convinced he went around enough.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Hammer755

Consider me still not convinced.

Look at the shadow instead of the bat. It clearly never breaks 90 degrees.

That doesn't matter.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by cartman

Rangers win in the 11th to take the series 3-1 over Detroit. Next up, the Yankees come to town for 3 games followed by another 3 against Tampa Bay. I wish I could be there tomorrow night to see them honor Pudge Rodriguez before the game.

Not to belabor the point, but the umpire screwed up this game as well. The go-ahead squeeze bunt obviously hit the batter and should have been declared a foul ball. The Rangers would have probably won anyway considering they still had the bases loaded with nobody out, but these blown calls have me leaning towards supporting expanded replay.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Hammer755

Consider me still not convinced.

Look at the shadow instead of the bat. It clearly never breaks 90 degrees.

The idea of "breaking the wrist" has nothing to do with a called strike. Does the bat cross through the plate? Definitely.

[MrBug708]

At the apex of his swing, his wrists are almost 1/4 of the way to the pitchers mound

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Exhibit A, your honor.

Can we possibly get worse angles of this play? The two they showed on the telecast from down the lines clearly showed the swing wasn't even close to a swing. The dugout and CF cam show different.

When they appeal the call from now on, I think the catcher should point to the second baseman or umps stationed in the dugout if that's such a better angle then.

Rangers did win on a blown call today.

Rockies actually win on a Sunday. Something they do rarely, if ever. I have to hand it to the Cardinals,I was pretty convinced they'd suck this year. (not because of Albert leaving, but because a lot of guys played ridiculously above their heads at the end of the year) As of now, most of those guys are still playing at that level. Kudos to them.

The Royals look terrible. The AL east looks brutal even with Boston sucking.

The Nats are pitching out of their ever loving minds. The starters have combined to allow 20 earned runs in close to 100 innings. The staff has combined for an average of 8.64 k's per nine and a whip of 1.05, ERA of 2.34

That is just a ridiculous stretch of games.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Can we possibly get worse angles of this play? The two they showed on the telecast from down the lines clearly showed the swing wasn't even close to a swing. The dugout and CF cam show different.

Even if the angle is poor, you made it sound like this was just an absolutely terrible call. From any angle I have seen it is a 50/50 call when it is slowed down.

I was not seeing this "This wasn't borderline. There isn't a replay angle that exists that shows this was even close to a swing" which was a comment in an earlier post.

So if we take a 50/50 call which will often go to a home team but in this case the crowd was treating the White Sox as the home team later in the game I dont think this call is as bad as you want to think.

Now whether or not these umps were calling it this way the entire game is a different story. I vaguely remember either reading an article or hearing that when broken down by the book rules the batter swings on check swings over 80 percent of the time but its not actually called that way.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Can we possibly get worse angles of this play? The two they showed on the telecast from down the lines clearly showed the swing wasn't even close to a swing. The dugout and CF cam show different.

Which telecast are you referring to?

[MrBug708]

If I'm going to watch an umpire "blow a call", I'd hope it would be in the favor of a perfect game as opposed to blowing a perfect game

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

If I'm going to watch an umpire "blow a call", I'd hope it would be in the favor of a perfect game as opposed to blowing a perfect game

I vehemently disagree with this. A blown call that results in a perfect game is just as much a travesty as one that prevents a perfect game.

[MrBug708]

Nope

[Logan]

I still haven't seen a single screenshot of the typical side view of that play. The closest I have is the gif posted here. Can anyone post one?

[lordscarlet]

Bah. West coast swing for the Nationals this week, I won't hear more than a couple of innings each day before I have to get to bed.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Easily went to me.

This. There is no doubt in my mind that he went and the ump made the proper call.

Regardless, jeez Red Sox - can you try not to have your biggest rival totally embarrass you on the 100th anniversary of your stadium ok?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Bah. West coast swing for the Nationals this week, I won't hear more than a couple of innings each day before I have to get to bed.

Hmm, I actually like this - much more of a chance post 10PM that I can catch games (kids and wife in bed).

[sterlingice]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/buy-cap-jose-canseco-wearing-home-run-bounced-140538832.html

Own a silly piece of baseball history!

SI