Corn

[tarcone]

When does the United States take the 1st step of providing incentives to produce engines run on corn?
Right now you can heat your house will corn. You can buy gas with a limited amount of corn in it. For a cheaper price.
Is corn a dirty fuel? Or does it burn cleaner then oil?
Corn is a fuel source that can be restocked every year. Does the oil conglomerate hold so much power that it would prefer a profit to anything else? (I know, I know).

Isnt corn the way to go? we grow plenty of it every year. Wouldnt this put us back into the worlds economic leadership position?

So many questions. So few answers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The most meaningful thing that corn-as-fuel has produced is higher food prices.

[tarcone]

Why is that? Because of supply and demand?

[stevew]

I believe you also neglected to mention shitty fuel economy as well

[Grover]

It takes an incredible, incredible amount of corn to make it worth it as a fuel. This is one thing I will agree with Jon on.

Subsidizing it for energy was a bad idea.

[tarcone]

Does corn produce terrible fuel economy? I was discussing this with a friend today, And he did mention that when he used the ethanol that his truck ran worse.
So is it a matter of making a better fuel or a better engine to run on that type of fuel?

[JPhillips]

We don't grow enough to feed the world and power our cars. Laws that mandate a certain percentage of corn ethanol pull corn out of the food market and raise the costs for everyone.

If anything we should at least temporarily revoke ethanol laws to compensate for the drought and poor harvest to come.

[Surtt]

It takes more energy to grow the corn and turn it into fuel then you get out of it.

Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study.

Biomass for biofuel isn't worth it

[claphamsa]

Corn is very dirty, the enthanol subsidies we have are awful

[lungs]

And then when there is widespread drought in the corn belt, you have this year......

[britrock88]

Nevermind the preexisting subsidies for corn that helped create the HFCS-filled American food marketplace.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

When does the United States take the 1st step of providing incentives to produce engines run on corn?
Right now you can heat your house will corn. You can buy gas with a limited amount of corn in it. For a cheaper price.
Is corn a dirty fuel? Or does it burn cleaner then oil?
Corn is a fuel source that can be restocked every year. Does the oil conglomerate hold so much power that it would prefer a profit to anything else? (I know, I know).

Isnt corn the way to go? we grow plenty of it every year. Wouldnt this put us back into the worlds economic leadership position?

So many questions. So few answers.

The simple answer to why this doesn't happen is if we started producing corn as a fuel it would end up costing considerably more than what we're paying now for a gallon of gas.

That's the primary reason why these alternative fuels don't catch on.

[INDalltheway]

Funny you mention this. I just listened to a speech my Senator Richard Lugar on this very topic on Friday. He still stands behind corn ethanol as a viable and worthwhile change in the nation's energy future. Like J Phillips stated the drought has taken a toll on the production of corn ethanol. He also mentioned that the Farm Bill will have some changes to the production of corn ethanol brought on by the recent drought.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The most meaningful thing that corn-as-fuel has produced is higher food prices.

Maybe we should stop relying on corn as a filler to feed all the livestock and that wouldn't happen. And yes there is a double meaning in there.

[CU Tiger]

Well you neglect to count all the thousands of gallons of diesel fuel needed to break up the earth, plant the seed, run the water pumps, run the combines, then haul the finished product. I read once and cant find where now, that it takes 3.5 gallons of diesel fuel tto produce 1 gallon of ethanol from corn.

Then the latent heat energy of ethanol is lower than gasoline and the flash point is higher than diesel, so you have a fuel that has less energy and is harder to spark than our two primary alternatives today.

Its funny when both of the two most popular ICE (spark ignited and compression ignited) were invented they were invented by very intelligent men without biases. And no fuel was readily available. One of the first steps was to research the shit out of it and find what works best as a fuel . Gas and Fuel Oil were the conclusions. Then big oil grew out of the created demand. Its funny to think that a man that invented an ICE with its hundreds of moving parts from an otherwise unknown theory, wouldnt have thought to fburn corn, or coal, or whale dung if it would work better.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

i think there's viable bio-fuels out there but they don't have the lobbying power of oil or agra

it's like a kid being asked to do something he doesn't wanna do so he gives the most half assed half hearted attempt just to frustrate the parent. that's what ethanol feels like.

[Warhammer]

Sugar is a much better ethanol alternative than corn. There is an 8 to 1 input to output ratio for corn, sugarcane approaches 1 to 1.

[judicial clerk]

Sweet

[BrianD]

Isn't hemp even higher than sugar?

[lungs]

It's going to be an interesting few months here in the dairy industry. With the drought that hit, western dairies that don't grow their own feed and have to buy it all are really going to be taking it on the chin. It's pretty much a disaster of epic proportions. Right now, feed costs in California are $15 per 100 lbs of milk produced. September 2012 price of milk is currently $18.85 per 100 lbs of milk. That sure doesn't leave much left over for other costs. Essentially, western producers would need the pay price to be $25-26 just to keep their heads above water. And once yield reports come in from this drought stricken year, things won't be any better.

While I lost a good percentage of my crop and will have to buy some corn, we've got disaster insurance to cover those costs. I'm not making any money right now, but that's pretty much part of the cycle where we take it on the chin once every three years and do fairly well for two years. It's just a matter of how hard of a beating we take and 2012 won't be nearly as bad as 2009 was for us.

I don't fault the corn farmers in this. They've gone years and years without making money and it's nice to see them make some money for a change. But it'd be nice if we could make the boom and bust cycles a little easier on everybody, from farmer to consumer.

And for everybody's information, ethanol plants are subsidized but even with corn at prices they are plus the subsidies they get, a lot of ethanol plants are going on standby as it's not economically viable to produce ethanol with corn prices where they are at.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why is that? Because of supply and demand?

You have a limited amount of space to grow corn on. If you use that corn for fuel, you no longer have that corn available to use as a food source resulting in either higher prices to buy the corn or buy the alternative.

On a side note, my friend who works in the biofuels industry was telling me they get blamed for causing starvation in developing countries since biofuel demand has priced staple crops out of the reach of the poor.

[Ben E Lou]

I'm just glad this wasn't another I don't eat corn thread.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

....

On a side note, my friend who works in the biofuels industry was telling me they get blamed for causing starvation in developing countries since biofuel demand has priced staple crops out of the reach of the poor.

I've always made this correlation on the basis that...If we use our corn production to make fuel, we don't have relatively cheap corn to use in our own food production as in corn syrup solids or as additives in animal feed. The same cheap corn that is/was used for these puproses is also shipped around the world as exports or by humanitarian organizations to feed the poor.

We already see the lack of cheap corn causing a trend in Throwback sodas that use real sugar, because sugar is cheaper. So I definitely buy that corn as fuel will increase our food costs, see also Lung's post above. I'll just assume that the same market pressures flow through the other consumption channels as well.

The only thing to make me doubt my take that corn as fuel isn't a valid plan, is that Dick Lugar is a fan. I consider him a pretty sharp and principled fellow, though he has tilted at a couple of windmills over the years. I guess maybe Indiana's corn production is enough to dull his intelect and principles.

[DanGarion]

This is a really cool movie if you have an hour or two to burn.

King Corn | The Peabody-winning documentary from Mosaic Films Incorporated

[lungs]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

This is a really cool movie if you have an hour or two to burn.

King Corn | The Peabody-winning documentary from Mosaic Films Incorporated

I haven't seen this, nor do I plan to (agenda driven documentaries of all kinds simply aren't good sources of info IMO). But in general, I'm getting the drift that corn has a big target on its back.

Argue the subsidies all you want (I'm not for them), but on my end (dairy), the unquestioned most efficient way for me to produce the volume of milk I do is to feed my cows corn. It's become less efficient with higher prices, but nothing beats homegrown corn for economic efficiency. If I were to switch to a 100% grass based diet (actually corn is a grass, but that's beside the point), I'd expect to lose around half of my total production.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Sugar is a much better ethanol alternative than corn. There is an 8 to 1 input to output ratio for corn, sugarcane approaches 1 to 1.

Unfortunately we don't have enough land that is capable of growing sugar. Brazil has always used it in ethanol, IIRC.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Sugar is a much better ethanol alternative than corn. There is an 8 to 1 input to output ratio for corn, sugarcane approaches 1 to 1.

This. Brazil has shown that sugar works great for creating ethanol. But Brazil also produces about 200 times more sugar cane than the US produces. Also, researchers are working on a way to use E. Coli to process sugar into bio-diesel.

[lungs]

We could use Cuban sugar..... oh wait.....

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by lungs

I haven't seen this, nor do I plan to (agenda driven documentaries of all kinds simply aren't good sources of info IMO). But in general, I'm getting the drift that corn has a big target on its back.

Argue the subsidies all you want (I'm not for them), but on my end (dairy), the unquestioned most efficient way for me to produce the volume of milk I do is to feed my cows corn. It's become less efficient with higher prices, but nothing beats homegrown corn for economic efficiency. If I were to switch to a 100% grass based diet (actually corn is a grass, but that's beside the point), I'd expect to lose around half of my total production.

I haven't seen King Corn either, but based on similar reading my guess would be that the "anti corn" people would also be against your method of producing milk. Well, our volume of milk/beef consumed, really. That our demand for cow products are what creates the demand for corn (which is bad for the soil, etc, etc).

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

from what i remember (saw it years ago) it was less anti-corn and more the history of corn and how it came to be in everything. cheap, plentiful, easy to grow etc.

some stuff about corn based diets being bad for you and big agra being evil but that's to be expected.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I haven't seen King Corn either, but based on similar reading my guess would be that the "anti corn" people would also be against your method of producing milk

Very true. The thing is, there's a reason we produce it the way we do. And that's largely a matter of geography, land and climate. In Wisconsin for example, the ideal grass season is May-August. Four months basically. Whereas a country like New Zealand has perfect land and climate to be 100% grass based. Different styles of farming work in some areas and not others.

I just find it interesting that the general public has the debate on what the 'correct' way to farm is when any farmer with an ounce of sense knows that there's no such thing as a 'correct' way. The lobbying and propaganda machines from the big money interests fuel this debate. Obviously Big Ag throws as much money into our crooked political system as anybody so I'm not sitting here shocked that there is backlash.

[Autumn]

Be honest, you just started this thread with hopes that someone would make a parody thread of it titled Porn.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by lungs

Very true. The thing is, there's a reason we produce it the way we do. And that's largely a matter of geography, land and climate. In Wisconsin for example, the ideal grass season is May-August. Four months basically. Whereas a country like New Zealand has perfect land and climate to be 100% grass based. Different styles of farming work in some areas and not others.

I just find it interesting that the general public has the debate on what the 'correct' way to farm is when any farmer with an ounce of sense knows that there's no such thing as a 'correct' way. The lobbying and propaganda machines from the big money interests fuel this debate. Obviously Big Ag throws as much money into our crooked political system as anybody so I'm not sitting here shocked that there is backlash.

Maybe I'm coming from a slightly different point of view, but the arguments I have heard aren't really "we should be farming differently to eat what we do" but "we should eat differently to match what the land/our bodies were meant to do". We eat too much meat, throw away too much food, etc.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I'm just glad this wasn't another I don't eat corn thread.

+1

[lungs]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Maybe I'm coming from a slightly different point of view, but the arguments I have heard aren't really "we should be farming differently to eat what we do" but "we should eat differently to match what the land/our bodies were meant to do". We eat too much meat, throw away too much food, etc.

I could use the same general argument though. Everybody should farm like me and everybody should eat like me.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

This is a really cool movie if you have an hour or two to burn.

King Corn | The Peabody-winning documentary from Mosaic Films Incorporated

King Corn, huh? What about....



KIN CORN KARN????

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

King Corn, huh? What about....

i watched that entire thing. oh sweet nostalgia

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Isn't hemp even higher than sugar?

Not sure, but it can get you higher.