Hugo Chavez, we hardly knew ye

[DaddyTorgo]

Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez dies - CNN.com

[DaddyTorgo]

You guys are slipping - this has been out for like...2 hours now. 4PM EST apparently.

[Young Drachma]

Huge? Really?

[molson]

Huge Chavez is a great porn name

[stevew]

Good riddance to bad garbage.

[DaddyTorgo]

damn autocorrect on my ipad...lol

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

Huge Chavez is a great porn name

or band name.

[cuervo72]

I see your Chavez is as huge as mine!



Had a friend in college who would use "hey huge!" as a greeting. I hadn't thought about that in years. Yay auto correct.

[lungs]

And the Castro boys in Cuba keep plugging away....

[Abe Sargent]

Really sad to South America. Good for us I guess.

[RainMaker]

Area Man Unsure If He’s Supposed To Want Hugo Chavez To Die Or Not | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[panerd]

Originally Posted by stevew

Good riddance to bad garbage.

Yeah I have lived the past ten years of my life scared to death of the threat Venezuela posed to our country. (When I'm not worrying about Iranian nukes and North Korea that is)

[Desnudo]

dasvidaniya comrade

[stevew]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yeah I have lived the past ten years of my life scared to death of the threat Venezuela posed to our country. (When I'm not worrying about Iranian nukes and North Korea that is)

My friend Guillermo is from Venezuela and has detailed to me the various issues (money transfers, etc) he's seen with his country from the perspective of his middle to upper class Venezuelan family. It's a shame I moved away from the beach because it would be party time tonight.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

it's amazing he lasted as long as he did

[ISiddiqui]

I never really understood why people got all up in arms about him. As far as dictators go, he was pretty benign. He wasn't involved in mass murder or anything like that. He was far better than the lot that the American right still wishes was in charge in North Africa / Mid East, he just talked against the US a lot more.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I never really understood why people got all up in arms about him. As far as dictators go, he was pretty benign. He wasn't involved in mass murder or anything like that. He was far better than the lot that the American right still wishes was in charge in North Africa / Mid East, he just talked against the US a lot more.

I never had an issue with him. I think the anti-US stuff was good for Venezuela and S America in general, to help crack out of the Monroe Shell we created. I don't mind that he wanted to use Venezuela's oil funds to give everyone stuff in a socialist manner. He was elected fairly, even though numerous watchdog groups always went there, they came back clean. Yeah, he was a bit too against people who spoke out against him, and maybe a bit too much Cult of Personality, but he was good for them and their continent.

[lungs]

His blowhard stuff kind of turned me off but in general I do believe that a lot of South/Central American countries needed to be broken from their oligarch leaderships.

That said, my favorite South American leftist is Lula from Brazil.

[molson]

He's most known on the international scale for the anti-U.S. stuff but he was also a raging anti-semite who harassed the jewish population of Venezuela (most of whom ended up leaving the country) and he seemed to have some big ideas about what should happen to the jews generally. That didn't make him particularly dangerous outside Venezuela (unless there was some kind of unlikely domino effect that spread his version of socialism throughout South American and the world), but that part shouldn't be ignored.

[Buccaneer]

So some of you have no problems with restricting free speech, freedom of the press and eliminating political opposition? How sad and pathetic,

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

So some of you have no problems with restricting free speech, freedom of the press and eliminating political opposition? How sad and pathetic,

Someday, somebody smarter, more effective, and more dangerous than Chavez is going to gain a ton of power, and keep the world at bay for a long time, by "standing up to America." As long as you're perceived as doing that, a lot of human rights transgressions will be overlooked (as long as you're not a scary muslim). The template is there.

Edit: I mean, check this out. Senn Penn is in mourning today. The guy had a lot of admirers and I think it relates mainly to the trendy anti-U.S. posturing. Penn previously said that anyone who called Chavez "should be jailed." I mean, it's wacky. How would Penn react if someone said that anyone calling Bush a criminal "should be jailed"? Does Penn think that the Human Rights Watch is full of shit for what they've reported about Venezuela, or does he just think that a few human rights violations here and there are necessary for progress?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21683426

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

So some of you have no problems with restricting free speech, freedom of the press and eliminating political opposition? How sad and pathetic,

To be clear, those are the reasons I believe Lula is a better model for the left in South America.

Of course suppressing speech and opposition is a step up from the right-wing paramilitary death squads that were employed to "fight communism".

[Breeze]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I never really understood why people got all up in arms about him. As far as dictators go, he was pretty benign. He wasn't involved in mass murder or anything like that. He was far better than the lot that the American right still wishes was in charge in North Africa / Mid East, he just talked against the US a lot more.

Buddy of mine worked in St. Croix at an Oil Refinery for a couple of years, and he said Chavez was A LOT worse than the US Media realized...

He told some stories about things that went on, but it has been several years and I don't recall enough of the details to post them, but I remember being surprised that none of the stories seemed to ever see the light of day...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by lungs

Of course suppressing speech and opposition is a step up from the right-wing paramilitary death squads that were employed to "fight communism".

Bingo.

We're talking Latin America here. The fact that was just suppressing speech and press is an upgrade.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I never had an issue with him. I think the anti-US stuff was good for Venezuela and S America in general, to help crack out of the Monroe Shell we created. I don't mind that he wanted to use Venezuela's oil funds to give everyone stuff in a socialist manner. He was elected fairly, even though numerous watchdog groups always went there, they came back clean. Yeah, he was a bit too against people who spoke out against him, and maybe a bit too much Cult of Personality, but he was good for them and their continent.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Bingo.

We're talking Latin America here. The fact that was just suppressing speech and press is an upgrade.

I'm trying to understand this thinking. So, he wasn't as bad as some others, so he's good?

[DanGarion]

It seems every Venezuelan that I know is happy that he's dead, so that is enough for me to understand that it's a good thing he is gone.

[Young Drachma]

http://observer.com/2013/03/two-week...ezs-venezuela/

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm trying to understand this thinking. So, he wasn't as bad as some others, so he's good?

And this post, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example why binary thinking causes so many problems.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And this post, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example why binary thinking causes so many problems.

Nice dodge. You can quibble about my qualifying your opinion as "good", but you're really just avoiding the question. Probably because you don't have an easy answer for it.

[stevew]

I really think they should be crushing in tourism as the country is beautiful and has a great location. However, kidnapping and whatnot...no thanks.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm trying to understand this thinking. So, he wasn't as bad as some others, so he's good?

While not up to standards we hold, I'm merely taking a pragmatic position here. We can't expect a region with the history it has to turn into a bastion of democracy. Especially given our own tendency to subvert democracy in South America when we don't like the result (see: Allende, Chile).

I'd say the fact that the CIA hasn't decapitated these left-wing regimes also shows progress on our own part (though I'm anticipating JIMGA strongly disagreeing with this point if he pops into this thread!)

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm trying to understand this thinking. So, he wasn't as bad as some others, so he's good?

I would say, from a realpolitik view, yeah, better than his predecessors, and setting an example that others followed to improve is very muc hgood.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

While not up to standards we hold, I'm merely taking a pragmatic position here. We can't expect a region with the history it has to turn into a bastion of democracy. Especially given our own tendency to subvert democracy in South America when we don't like the result (see: Allende, Chile).

I'd say the fact that the CIA hasn't decapitated these left-wing regimes also shows progress on our own part (though I'm anticipating JIMGA strongly disagreeing with this point if he pops into this thread!)

I don't even know if democracy is supposed to be the end all, be all, but I generally view totalitarianism negatively, at least with respect to human civil rights. I am thinking heads of governments like those deserve to be crucified by us whether they are left wing nuts or right wing nuts. It seems an iffy line to dance around if that is how we're judging them.

Just because we (the neutral American observer) might tend toward the right or the left here in our own politics, I don't think we should then view dictators with political leanings that tend somewhat to match ours more positively than those who tend the other way. We should be decrying all of them.

And, yeah, I 100% agree that this opinion is irrespective of the context of the history of the region and the role the US government has played in supporting or taking down these same governments. That might make my opinion less of a qualified one, but it doesn't make these dictators any better or worthy of even an ounce of leniency in our regard for them.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I would say, from a realpolitik view, yeah, better than his predecessors, and setting an example that others followed to improve is very muc hgood.

I can get behind the idea that as part of a string of more increasingly progressive governemnts, that the existence of the Chavez regime in Venezuela is acceptable in terms of the reality of that country's growth and hopefully movement toward a more open and free society.

(And I'll just acknowledge that point, as I am not familiar enough with Venezuela prior to Chavez, nor what is likely to follow him now that he's gone, to know if he does indeed represent "a step forward"...)

But even accepting that point, I don't think we need to be any less harsh in our judgment of him and his regime.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But even accepting that point, I don't think we need to be any less harsh in our judgment of him and his regime.

That's fair.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Just because we (the neutral American observer) might tend toward the right or the left here in our own politics, I don't think we should then view dictators with political leanings that tend somewhat to match ours more positively than those who tend the other way. We should be decrying all of them.

I don't view it as a right or left thing. It just so happens that a majority of this region wide progress has come from the left. Colombia leans the other way and there is also modest progress taking place in that country in terms of political discourse.

I guess the point is that they are moving away from having coup'd'etat after coup'd'etat. Despite the word 'Dictator' being thrown around to describe Chavez, he won election after election. And he wasn't the only choice on the ballot either.

But like I said earlier in the thread, Chavez got all the attention. Another interesting one is Jose Mujica in Uruguay, self-proclaimed "World's Poorest President".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Nice dodge. You can quibble about my qualifying your opinion as "good", but you're really just avoiding the question. Probably because you don't have an easy answer for it.

It's just an apt way to deal with a strawman.

No one ever claimed Chavez was "good". Better than other Latin American dictators only ever equals good if you are subjecting yourself to binary thinking.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It's just an apt way to deal with a strawman.

No one ever claimed Chavez was "good". Better than other Latin American dictators only ever equals good if you are subjecting yourself to binary thinking.

Match my strawman with your character assassination, eh? Fair enough.