Friendship and Infertility issues

[panerd]

I know there have been several threads with similar stories about this so I am hoping for some thoughts from the other side of the issue.

So I have a good friend at work whose wife has been having infertility issues for the past several years. She understandably gets annoyed when people start talking about their kids especially when some of the women get going on how kids will change your life and how life was nothing until they had kids. However my wife is not like that at all.

So rewind to last year. My wife had started to become really good friends with her and was a sounding board for her to vent about trying to get pregnant. Then my wife and I got pregrant. The husband was really cool with me but she never once even offered a congrats to my wife. Then about 9-10 months ago they actually got pregnant and she was back to being on great terms with my wife (calling her all the time, asking questions about pregnancy) Well they lost that baby and so she started ignoring us again. She never went to any of the showers and has never once come to visit our baby much less even call to congratulate us. Well this week they found out they were pregnant again. Now she texted my wife and wants to be friends again. My wife really wants nothing to do with her because of how she has treated her. I am kind of stuck in the middle in a bind because my friend has always kind of been the voice of reason and has been a good friend to me. I know that I will never understand what they have to go through but I also don't think my wife owes her a thing after giving her multiple chances. I am not sure if I am attempting to do much more than vent here but is this really a simple as convincing my wife to be a bigger person or is she justified in not wanting to try and be friends again with someone who has basically hung her high and dry twice?

[ISiddiqui]

I really thought this thread may have gone in a different direction after reading the title .

Seriously though, a dick move by your friend and his wife. Obviously coming from a position of envy and jealousy. I don't blame your wife for being upset, to be honest.

[molson]

Sounds fun!

I guess I would just say, this has nothing to do with your wife's relationship with your friend's wife. This is all about the friend's wife, her infertility issues, and the emotional issues that causes. I've never been through anything like that, but there's been times in my life I've been distant from people because of my own issues. It's been damaging to those relationships for sure, but usually whenever I got over myself, the friend was still there. They either understood or just accepted the situation. Your wife can do what she wants, and if she can't handle the start/stop stuff that's understandable, I just hope she gets that this isn't a case of her friend being "mean" to her or anything like that.

[spleen1015]

Your wife should talk to the other woman about it.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I really thought this thread may have gone in a different direction after reading the title .

As for the problem, I see no reason your wife must be friends with this woman. Friendly, sure I suppose. In social situations where all 4 of you are around. But you should be able to maintain your friendship, 1-on-1, with your buddy, and the two ladies have nothing more than a friend by association relationship.

I would imagine, too, if the (entirely understandable) mood swings in his wife are this apparent, he sees it, too. And if he's as good of a guy as you describe, he would understand your wife's perspective, even if he can never say that to his wife for fear of suffering her wrath.

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by molson

Sounds fun!

I guess I would just say, this has nothing to do with your wife's relationship with your friend's wife. This is all about the friend's wife, her infertility issues, and the emotional issues that causes. I've never been through anything like that, but there's been times in my life I've been distant from people because of my own issues. It's been damaging to those relationships for sure, but usually whenever I got over myself, the friend was still there. They either understood or just accepted the situation. Your wife can do what she wants, and if she can't handle the start/stop stuff that's understandable, I just hope she gets that this isn't a case of her friend being "mean" to her or anything like that.

+1

[Suicane75]

Yeah man, pain can be a bitch.

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know that I will never understand what they have to go through but I also don't think my wife owes her a thing after giving her multiple chances.

I don't think it's so much giving someone multiple chances as it is giving someone space and time to grieve the loss of an unborn child.

They are going on an extreme emotional roller coaster, with infertility issues, then getting pregnant, then the miscarriage, and getting pregnant again.

When my wife's first pregnancy ended on the first term we shut ourselves out almost completely from our friends who were already going on their second round of kids. It hurt deep, thinking we're not able to have kids, and hearing all about our friends' kids. But when we got pregnant the second time a year later, and then had our baby, all of our friends welcomed us back with open arms. It felt good to be friends again, and it washed away all the guilt I felt for cutting them out when we were at our all time low.

[panerd]

I guess I should add a little to kind of respond to a lot of the responses. The guy is a good friend of mine but the girls became good couple friends. I would agree with the fact that my wife should try and understand her grief but at what point do I wreck some of my own relationship when my wife doesn't agree with me at all? For example my wife does not want to go to dinner and talk about being pregnant. She tried to do this when she was pregnant and was ignored and then when the other woman got pregnant she tried doing it again and was abruptly cut off and not spoken to. It isn't her friend as much as the wife of one of my good friends. Of course we are both happy for them and don't dislike them but my wife doesn't really consider somebody a friend who can't even text a "Congrats" when we had our baby.

[Castlerock]

Your wife is not unjustified in feeling burned twice and she is under no obligation to "be a bigger person".

However, I can tell you from first hand experience how utterly devastating infertility can be. Even if she chooses not to pursue a friendship with her, I would encourage her to watch this short video:
Tears and Hope - the infertility awareness project
Nothing can accurately convey the loss that infertility brings but this video tries.

I do not know this other woman but I am certain that she is not being selfish. She is trying her best to SURVIVE. Survival often means withdrawing. I am certain that she is happy for you. I am certain that she WISHES she could express that. I am certain that very few people understand the REAL pain she is going through.

Resolve.org is a good place for info on infertility and there is information here
For Family & Friends RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association
for family and friends.

This woman's behavior is not 'ok' but it is normal. Understandable. Expected. Infertility takes years to resolve. Part of the pain is not knowing HOW it will be resolved.

If there is any real friendship there, I encourage your wife to try to understand what this woman is going through right now before giving up on the friendship.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by AnalBumCover

I don't think it's so much giving someone multiple chances as it is giving someone space and time to grieve the loss of an unborn child.

They are going on an extreme emotional roller coaster, with infertility issues, then getting pregnant, then the miscarriage, and getting pregnant again.

When my wife's first pregnancy ended on the first term we shut ourselves out almost completely from our friends who were already going on their second round of kids. It hurt deep, thinking we're not able to have kids, and hearing all about our friends' kids. But when we got pregnant the second time a year later, and then had our baby, all of our friends welcomed us back with open arms. It felt good to be friends again, and it washed away all the guilt I felt for cutting them out when we were at our all time low.

This is it exactly. I don't think you can blame them for cutting you out. You would do the same in their position. The pain of losing kids or never getting go to have them when everyone around you is, is unbearable. It was all they could do to back away. I say take them back as many times as necessary because you wouldn't want to go through it. This takes massive amounts of compassion. It's not about you at all. They don't mean to hurt you, it's totally for self preservation and coping with the pain and struggles they are going through.

[JediKooter]

She is projecting her expectations and feelings on others, which, isn't cool. It's not your fault that they are having fertility issues. Does she expect the whole world to just stop talking about kids because they can't have kids? Ridiculous. There's other ways to have kids; adoption, IVF, etc...

It's like bitching about all the tall people because you're short and you want all the tall people to stop being tall.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

She is projecting her expectations and feelings on others, which, isn't cool. It's not your fault that they are having fertility issues. Does she expect the whole world to just stop talking about kids because they can't have kids? Ridiculous. There's other ways to have kids; adoption, IVF, etc...

It's like bitching about all the tall people because you're short and you want all the tall people to stop being tall.

She doesn't expect the world to stop talking about kids. That's why she has to withdraw.

And yes, there are other ways to have a family. And she may get to that point someday. But the road to get there is full of pain and loss and grief. And you cannot just jump to the end of the road. I remember looking at an adoption website once. There were all these pictures of beautiful kids. I cried and I was angry because those were not 'my' kids. It took another couple of years before I was ready.

It's not at all like bitching about tall people.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

She is projecting her expectations and feelings on others, which, isn't cool. It's not your fault that they are having fertility issues. Does she expect the whole world to just stop talking about kids because they can't have kids? Ridiculous. There's other ways to have kids; adoption, IVF, etc...

It's like bitching about all the tall people because you're short and you want all the tall people to stop being tall.

No. It's not. It's like burying your closest love. Being told to go to Africa to get another just doesn't cut it.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

No. It's not. It's like burying your closest love. Being told to go to Africa to get another just doesn't cut it.

I'm talking about how she is treating others. She's upset because she is having problems having kids and then gets mad at others because they are able to have kids. She needs counseling to not only help with dealing with not being able to have kids, but, also with how she is treating others that do have kids. Here feelings and emotions are totally justified when it comes to not being able to have kids. What is NOT justified is how she is treating others.

[molson]

It doesn't sound like she's "treating anyone badly" unless you count withdrawing as that. If she was insulting everyone's kids and their parenting skills, that's one thing, but if she's just depressed and closed off, that's really not something to resent someone for, IMO.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

What is NOT justified is how she is treating others.

"Geez", she says, "I'm going through the shittiest time in my life and getting out of bed every day seems like a lot of work, but I'm so sorry I offended you." Said no one ever.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

"Geez", she says, "I'm going through the shittiest time in my life and getting out of bed every day seems like a lot of work, but I'm so sorry I offended you." Said no one ever.

She was acting that way before she had a miscarriage...before she was pregnant.

So you're saying it's cool to take out your frustrations and disappointments on others? That's cool. Just not my style.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I'm talking about how she is treating others. She's upset because she is having problems having kids and then gets mad at others because they are able to have kids. She needs counseling to not only help with dealing with not being able to have kids, but, also with how she is treating others that do have kids. Here feelings and emotions are totally justified when it comes to not being able to have kids. What is NOT justified is how she is treating others.

I am certain that she is not 'mad at others'. She is trying to survive.

I hope that you never experience the loss of infertility or some other equally devastating loss. But, if you do, I hope that you have someone in your life with more compassion than is shown here. You may not believe that infertility is devastating but anyone who has dealt with it will tell you otherwise.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

She was acting that way before she had a miscarriage...before she was pregnant.

So you're saying it's cool to take out your frustrations and disappointments on others? That's cool. Just not my style.

Yeah, because every month you are trying to get pregnant and you don't knocks you down. Not getting upset until after you lose one is unrealistic. I'm saying it's cold to expect someone to downplay one of the most significant life experiences and ignore the devastation they feel because of it.

I'm saying your reply is not uncommon, and when you are in the muck and your friends tire of your pain they leave too. They tell you it's time to get over it. They tell you to buck up and move on. They tell you it'll be ok and there are other options. And all you can think in that moment is "Shut up and die." So your friends leave, and you get mad because they let you down and they don't want to deal with you anymore. So you back away and effectively give the world the middle finger.

Sure it passes in time and good news helps heal all. You keep thinking if only this month and it could all be fixed. You can only remain optimistic for so long. Every baby, friend or not, is pain. Every kid who was abused, unwanted, lost becomes a cut to the heart because someone else fucked up but you are the one being punished by never being given the chance to fulfill your life's dream.

How is any of that wrong?

[AnalBumCover]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

You may not believe that infertility is devastating but anyone who has dealt with it will tell you otherwise.

It's devastating in that people will have spent most of their early adulthood planning on having children with their spouse, and then having the immediate realization that that might not be possible. Or worse, might never be possible.

[Young Drachma]

Thought surely this would be a thread about lending sperms to a friend in need. But I've read lots and lots of articles about this in casual internet readings and I've heard it's a huge issue for relationships between families/friends especially women.

[Suburban Rhythm]

I think a bigger piece is, as an adult, the friend's wife knows how she has behaved in the past. Whether you feel she's justified in acting this way or not is irrelevant.

If she's now on this pregnancy "high", she didn't somehow forget all the things she felt/acted/said during her down period.

I think most reasonable people would accept and understand the reasoning for her withdrawing, twice. But most reasonable people, IMO, would also not put themselves in the situation to be toyed with again, should it unfortunately come to that again.

Does your wife deserve an apology? Maybe. Is she going to get one? Doubtful.

She's as justified to her feelings of being over trying to befriend this woman, as this woman was justified to react how she felt necessary under her circumstances.

[molson]

Why is it so important that this lady keep up regular contact with everyone? What not just let grieving people have their space and be there if they need anything? If someone in my life had a huge loss I would hope I wouldn't be offended if they didn't talk to me enough. ("Ya, that's great about your dead whatever, but what about ME!")

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Yeah, because every month you are trying to get pregnant and you don't knocks you down. Not getting upset until after you lose one is unrealistic. I'm saying it's cold to expect someone to downplay one of the most significant life experiences and ignore the devastation they feel because of it.

I'm saying your reply is not uncommon, and when you are in the muck and your friends tire of your pain they leave too. They tell you it's time to get over it. They tell you to buck up and move on. They tell you it'll be ok and there are other options. And all you can think in that moment is "Shut up and die." So your friends leave, and you get mad because they let you down and they don't want to deal with you anymore. So you back away and effectively give the world the middle finger.

Sure it passes in time and good news helps heal all. You keep thinking if only this month and it could all be fixed. You can only remain optimistic for so long. Every baby, friend or not, is pain. Every kid who was abused, unwanted, lost becomes a cut to the heart because someone else fucked up but you are the one being punished by never being given the chance to fulfill your life's dream.

How is any of that wrong?

+1 for all your posts, PilotMan.

The pain of infertility does not start with a miscarriage. We never got to the point of a miscarriage.

From the Resolve.org site I posed above:
Infertility is, indeed, a very painful struggle. The pain is similar to the grief over losing a loved one, but it is unique because it is a recurring grief. When a loved one dies, he isn't coming back. There is no hope that he will come back from the dead. You must work through the stages of grief, accept that you will never see this person again, and move on with your life.

The grief of infertility is not so cut and dry. Infertile people grieve the loss of the baby that they may never know. They grieve the loss of that baby who would have had mommy's nose and daddy's eyes. But, each month, there is the hope that maybe that baby will be conceived after all. No matter how hard they try to prepare themselves for bad news, they still hope that this month will be different. Then, the bad news comes again, and the grief washes over the infertile couple anew. This process happens month after month, year after year. It is like having a deep cut that keeps getting opened right when it starts to heal.

[digamma]

As others have noted, this is a real bitch of an issue.

We have been on both sides of this, from having to leave some of our closest friends' child's birthday party immediately after walking in because my wife couldn't deal with being there to having a friend who sounds a lot your wife's friend here.

All I can say is that a little empathy can go a long way. There are no easy answers.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I think a bigger piece is, as an adult, the friend's wife knows how she has behaved in the past. Whether you feel she's justified in acting this way or not is irrelevant.

If she's now on this pregnancy "high", she didn't somehow forget all the things she felt/acted/said during her down period.

I think most reasonable people would accept and understand the reasoning for her withdrawing, twice. But most reasonable people, IMO, would also not put themselves in the situation to be toyed with again, should it unfortunately come to that again.

Does your wife deserve an apology? Maybe. Is she going to get one? Doubtful.

She's as justified to her feelings of being over trying to befriend this woman, as this woman was justified to react how she felt necessary under her circumstances.

I said in my first post, panerd's wife is not unjustified in her feelings. It is entirely reasonable for her to not wish to put any more into this friendship.

In fact, this woman has not resolved her infertility. If this pregnancy does not work out, all those old wounds get ripped open again. If that happens, she may very well withdraw again. It will not be because she does not value the friendship. It will be because she simply has to to get through the day.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by digamma

As others have noted, this is a real bitch of an issue.

We have been on both sides of this, from having to leave some of our closest friends' child's birthday party immediately after walking in because my wife couldn't deal with being there to having a friend who sounds a lot your wife's friend here.

All I can say is that a little empathy can go a long way. There are no easy answers.

There lies the real bitch of the situation. I have obviously been there for my friend and talked with him throughout the years about different medical things ranging from the serious stuff to doing his thing in a doctors office. My wife started to befriend his wife through me and was her closest ally until she told her she was pregnant. Then she becamse persona non grata. It certainly is a situation to be the bigger person but seeing as they aren't lifelong friends to begin with I am not sure what she really should do. It certainly does lead to some very uncomfortable conversations. The crazy part is they are only like 8 weeks along. Obviously you hope for the best and you know they are excited but it worries me that they are setting themselves up for a major letdown again if their past problems arise again.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

I said in my first post, panerd's wife is not unjustified in her feelings. It is entirely reasonable for her to not wish to put any more into this friendship.

In fact, this woman has not resolved her infertility. If this pregnancy does not work out, all those old wounds get ripped open again. If that happens, she may very well withdraw again. It will not be because she does not value the friendship. It will be because she simply has to to get through the day.

This is just where I will say that I will trust those who have gone through this that this is the typical response. It just seems like my wife was the one who was there for her and agreeing with her that life isn't all about how many kids you have or having a legacy but when my wife all of a sudden ended up on the other "team" she became one of "them". I would think having friends to talk to would be a better way to get though the day. It seems to be with most other forms of grief.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by panerd

This is just where I will say that I will trust those who have gone through this that this is the typical response. It just seems like my wife was the one who was there for her and agreeing with her that life isn't all about how many kids you have or having a legacy but when my wife all of a sudden ended up on the other "team" she became one of "them". I would think having friends to talk to would be a better way to get though the day. It seems to be with most other forms of grief.

The ways that people deal with grief are not always rational. I would encourage you to try not to take it personally. I am certain that she feels badly about withdrawing but she just cannot deal with it any other way.

[Galaxy]

Is the female friend usually catty or competitive? I understand what others are saying, but is it exclusive to this problem?

[spleen1015]

If having a relationship with this woman is important to your wife, then she should talk to her about it. People don't like to talk to each other in uncomfortable situations. Find out why she acted the way she did. Maybe talking to her helps with understanding why she acted the way she did.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Sounds like someone is in bragging mode & possibly wants a free babysitter. Bet she has a LOT of issues too...

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Is the female friend usually catty or competitive? I understand what others are saying, but is it exclusive to this problem?

See that's what I am saying also. Not going to a baby shower or a kids birthday where there will be a bunch of kids and parents... understandable. Not going out to dinner because you just went to the doctor and are feeling down... underdstandable. Just feeling like crap one day and ignoring the world... understandable. Friendly, then completely avoiding for 3 months, then getting pregnant and friendly for a few weeks, then completely avoiding for 10 months, then getting pregnant. A little extreme side of grief IMO.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

"Geez", she says, "I'm going through the shittiest time in my life and getting out of bed every day seems like a lot of work, but I'm so sorry I offended you." Said no one ever.

Disappearing is not a big deal. Once things turn around, not apologizing or at least acknowledging the disappearance is at least a little rude.

Whatever the situation, I would not get involved as a middle man if you value your relationship with your wife!

If your friend doesn't get it, then just explain it to him - your friendship should be able to withstand this kind of thing.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by panerd

See that's what I am saying also. Not going to a baby shower or a kids birthday where there will be a bunch of kids and parents... understandable. Not going out to dinner because you just went to the doctor and are feeling down... underdstandable. Just feeling like crap one day and ignoring the world... understandable. Friendly, then completely avoiding for 3 months, then getting pregnant and friendly for a few weeks, then completely avoiding for 10 months, then getting pregnant. A little extreme side of grief IMO.

If it's as instantaneous as this makes it out to be, even if I can be compassionate towards what the other woman is going through, I am firmly behind your wife (hee hee ) that after dealing with that twice already, I'm really not going back for a third helping.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by panerd

See that's what I am saying also. Not going to a baby shower or a kids birthday where there will be a bunch of kids and parents... understandable. Not going out to dinner because you just went to the doctor and are feeling down... underdstandable. Just feeling like crap one day and ignoring the world... understandable. Friendly, then completely avoiding for 3 months, then getting pregnant and friendly for a few weeks, then completely avoiding for 10 months, then getting pregnant. A little extreme side of grief IMO.

I would call these actions reasonable for your friend's wife. Normal grief can do this to people, but she has had the same grief compounded by multiple situations. This is the baggage that "friend" comes with, and it is likely to increase if they should suffer another loss.

Your wife needs to decide if that woman has enough potential as a friend to be worth the baggage. There is no shame in deciding that the friendship isn't worth it. We all make these decisions with all of our friends. Life is too short to start/maintain friendships with people that are too much of an emotional drain.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

I do not know this other woman but I am certain that she is not being selfish. She is trying her best to SURVIVE. Survival often means withdrawing. I am certain that she is happy for you. I am certain that she WISHES she could express that. I am certain that very few people understand the REAL pain she is going through.

Selfish isn't the word I would use to describe it but I'm not sold that she is happy for her and wishes she could express that. The evidence of annoyance panerd noted suggest that she doesn't have happiness for others, only jealousy.

I don't think ignoring her back is the best solution but I understand your wife's feelings. I think the honest thing to do is for your wife to diplomatically tell her how she feels. Clearly this woman needs help, whether its simple coping & depression or something more. Based on the past, if god forbid she has another troubled pregnancy, the emotional toll could be even worse for her.

If the friend takes the feedback, advice and offer to help positively, relationship saved and hopefully she will improve her emotional health. If she rejects it, your wife will know she did what she could.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by panerd

See that's what I am saying also. Not going to a baby shower or a kids birthday where there will be a bunch of kids and parents... understandable. Not going out to dinner because you just went to the doctor and are feeling down... underdstandable. Just feeling like crap one day and ignoring the world... understandable. Friendly, then completely avoiding for 3 months, then getting pregnant and friendly for a few weeks, then completely avoiding for 10 months, then getting pregnant. A little extreme side of grief IMO.

My question was she a generally a competitive, one-up you kind of woman before this situation?

[hoopsguy]

I know that my wife had a very difficult time at work when we were going through fertility issues. Both of the co-workers who shared an office with her, and who she considers good friends, were pregnant at the same time. The combination of wanting to be supportive and happy for friends while simultaneously feeling like "what did I do to deserve this?" was definitely a challenge. We skipped a few kids events over the years, but we also made a number of them and tried to have our best game faces on when we did attend.

The complete 180 degree scenario that you are describing with this woman seems a bit extreme. Your wife certainly has the option to understand/sympathize, but it isn't incumbent upon her to do so. She also has a right to her feelings, and I expect her natural inclination is to try and be a good friend to this person. If the friend's behavior has already exhausted your wife's good will and understand past their breaking point, she is absolutely entitled to shut down the friendship.

As far as what that means for you ... well, it is tough having a close friend when the wives don't get along all that well. I'm sure you could start a separate thread on this and get at least as many responses as we've seen in this thread. But it is doable if all parties involved can act like adults.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Your wife should talk to the other woman about it.

This - everyone involved is a grown up, talk to each other.

(my wifes family drives me absolutely nuts for their ability to sit in corners and sulk without actually explaining to each other why they're pissed off at each other .... much easier in my family where we shout, scream and swear at each other when we're annoyed ... at least you know where you stand )

I think both people have reasons for what happened and their current feelings - if they talk about them then they might be able to mend things or at least leave things amicably where they both understand whats going on.