I-5 bridge collapse north of Seattle

[cartman]

Another major infrastructure failure, this time a bridge on I-5 north of Seattle. Rescue of people in cars in the water is in progress.

http://www.king5.com/

[cartman]

Based on the map, this isn't too far from Schmidty.

[EagleFan]

Holy crap, that has always been one of my biggest nightmares. Driving over a bridge and suddenly it gives out, or a part of it gives out just ahead of me and I can't stop in time.

It doesn't keep me from going over bridges, I think the nightmare is more about the helpless feeling.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Holy crap, that has always been one of my biggest nightmares. Driving over a bridge and suddenly it gives out, or a part of it gives out just ahead of me and I can't stop in time.

It doesn't keep me from going over bridges, I think the nightmare is more about the helpless feeling.

EF - I'm right there with you on this nightmare. I absolutely hate when traffic backs up on the bridge and I'm stuck at the top.

[atatange1]

I almost posted this. Its crazy, I work in Mt. Vernon I'm on that bridge everyday, twice a day. Made it by a couple of hours, luckily so did many of my coworkers as were closed at 5:00.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Another major infrastructure failure, this time a bridge on I-5 north of Seattle. Rescue of people in cars in the water is in progress.

http://www.king5.com/

Yeah, not to get on too much of a political rant, but local governments all around the country are going to be paying huge costs for their lack of proper maintenance and investment in various infrastructure. This is probably the first of many such bridge collapses in my state's future - there are a lot of bridges out here in worse shape.

I only hope that the new 520 floating bridge is completed before disaster strikes the current one, and that the state has truly fixed the leak problems plaguing the new bridge pontoons.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

the leak problems plaguing the new bridge pontoons.

Now there's a particularly unpleasant sounding problem.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Now there's a particularly unpleasant sounding problem.

Imagine what it's like for those of us that drive on them

Some amount of leaking is unavoidable and manageable. But the first batch of concrete pontoons for the new bridge have had more leaking than they should, and the state DOT finally admitted the problem and are (supposedly) putting in place better building techniques with the contractors to reduce the cracking that occurs when they build them. It's been rather unsettling, and also infuriating given how much money is now coming out of my pockets to pay for it in the form of tolls.

[Lathum]

Having driven this road countless times I thought this was goin to be a much worse story.

[Desnudo]

I thought it was going to be the bridge going into downtown Seattle, which would be disastrous.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Yeah, not to get on too much of a political rant, but local governments all around the country are going to be paying huge costs for their lack of proper maintenance and investment in various infrastructure. This is probably the first of many such bridge collapses in my state's future - there are a lot of bridges out here in worse shape.

I only hope that the new 520 floating bridge is completed before disaster strikes the current one, and that the state has truly fixed the leak problems plaguing the new bridge pontoons.

I understand what you are saying, but I. Do not think it is all the governments fault. Some of it is, but far from all of it. In Oregon, a tax hike was voted down when peopleknew the police force would be slashed. Now a women gets raped because the police didn't have the resources to respond and the same people are throwing a fit.

With our current mindset that government should just control everything and there can be no cuts to anyones special programs, we get to a point where a local government ends up in a no win situation. Announce that you are budgeting 400 million for bridge fixes in your state, and people will be pissed school funding is down. Or upset. Their property taxes went up.

All of that, and I haven't even started in the corruption in most states when it comes to getting construction or repair contracts that slow down the process.

I agree with you, we will all pay for these errors, I just think there is plenty to go around when it comes to casting blame, and some of that falls the public.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Having driven this road countless times I thought this was goin to be a much worse story.

I thought it was going to be much worse as well. I definitely thought there would be more than 2 cars in the river. I'm glad to hear everyone seems to have been rescued. This is going to cause major problems with the holiday weekend traffic.

I just went over this bridge on Monday. It always seems that traffic slows down as people go over it (which ticks me off). Now, if they ever get it fixed, I'm going to want them to go even faster!

And as far as getting it fixed any time soon - forget about it. I'm sure WDOT will be working overtime to come up with something, but you can't just "patch" this one.

[nilodor]

This just seems nuts to me, it didn't sound like anything crazy weather related was going on. This would take years of neglect or a design flaw to happen. I can only think of corrosion or fatigue given the way the bridge failed and there should have been plenty of warning signs for both.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by nilodor

This just seems nuts to me, it didn't sound like anything crazy weather related was going on. This would take years of neglect or a design flaw to happen. I can only think of corrosion or fatigue given the way the bridge failed and there should have been plenty of warning signs for both.

Initial reports were an oversized load caused the collapse. But it was exacerbated by a low structural rating for the bridge.

Wash. I-5 Bridge Collapse Caused by Oversize Load - ABC News

The bridge was built in in 1955 and had a sufficiency rating of 47 out of 100 at its November 2012 inspection, Transportation Department spokesman Noel Brady said Friday. Washington state was given a C in the American Society of Civil Engineers' 2013 infrastructure report card and a C- when it came to the state's bridges. The group said more than a quarter of Washington's 7,840 bridges are considered structurally deficient or functionally obsolete.

[BYU 14]

The quote below is just plain scary, we're talking in the neighborhood of 2000+ other bridges that this could happen to. And people laugh at my phobia crossing bridges.

Quote:

The bridge was built in in 1955 and had a sufficiency rating of 47 out of 100 at its November 2012 inspection, Transportation Department spokesman Noel Brady said Friday. Washington state was given a C in the American Society of Civil Engineers' 2013 infrastructure report card and a C- when it came to the state's bridges. The group said more than a quarter of Washington's 7,840 bridges are considered structurally deficient or functionally obsolete.

[Schmidty]

We were just on the bridge the day before yesterday, and drive on it a few couple times a week. I've always told my wife that it looked like a death trap. It's like a smaller, crappier version of the one that connects Vancouver, WA and Portland, OR.

I'm just thankful no one got hurt, and that I live 25 minutes north of the bridge, so I don't have to deal with the I-5 clusterfuck this is going to cause.

[Schmidty]

Apparently, it was a Canadian truck driver. There have been complaints for a long time about Canadian semis with over-sized loads, and avoiding weigh stations.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Frankly, politicians don't care to spend money on fixing infrastructure problems until they become catastrophes. It's easier to convince the idiot voters that spending money on building new where there is nothing than on repairing or replacing what is already there. Our society tends to not give a damn about anything in the rear view mirror, whether it be the fast food bag they just tossed out the window or the neighborhood they moved out of. (However, we do an excellent job of blaming the people who live in the neighborhoods we leave or dump trash in for the problems they didn't necessarily create.)

What it comes down to is that as long as one politician gets elected on a platform of cutting taxes and spending over another who wants to spend money on improving infrastructure, this will continue.

God Bless America... (We need all the help we can get, thanks to the idiots out here.)

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

What it comes down to is that as long as one politician gets elected on a platform of cutting taxes and spending over another who wants to spend money on improving infrastructure, this will continue.

That has nothing to do with this state - It's been run by free-spenders for years and years. They just prefer to spend the money on saving endangered species of skunk weed and such instead of fixing the roads and bridges.

[RainMaker]

I'm paranoid about bridges. Not just driving over, but also under. I literally drove under this bridge 20 minutes before it collapsed and killed an older couple.

Two bodies found under wreckage of train derailment, bridge collapse - Chicago Sun-Times

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That has nothing to do with this state - It's been run by free-spenders for years and years. They just prefer to spend the money on saving endangered species of skunk weed and such instead of fixing the roads and bridges.

Not to be too much of a homer, but that's not really true. The transportation budget is more than 2.5x the natural resources budget in the state, and the latter budget includes the state's Ag agency and a lot more than your traditionally tree-hugging things.

The State also doesn't have much of a choice regarding endangered species protection -- those expenditures are required under Federal law.

The State's main problem is that it is funded mostly by the sales tax. Revenues get hammered when the economy declines. Efforts to change the tax system to something more stable have been consistently rejected by the voters.

Interestingly, earlier this week WA Governor Inslee proposed increasing the gas tax to pay for transportation infrastructure improvements, even citing the number of decaying bridges in the state as a reason for doing it. Republican leaders that control the state senate indicated their opposition immediately. I haven't seen any indication that they are changing their stance after this disaster.

[scooter]

It's looking like the collapse was caused by an oversized load truck hitting the bridge. This a quote from a local news report:

While the cause of the collapse was being investigated, witnesses reported seeing a semi-truck with an oversized load crossing the bridge and striking the beams on the north end before the bridge collapsed.

"I saw it. I was less than 50 feet away from the truck when it hit it," witness Dale Ogden told KING 5. "I had just passed it in the fast lane southbound and it had an oversized load. It was approximately 12 feet wide and over 14 feet tall. It was in the slow lane when I came by...I was behind the flag car and in front of the truck in the other lane and I saw the whip - normally tells you how high they can clear - start hitting the bridge. I looked in my rearview mirror knowing this was not going to turn out well."

"I saw the truck strike the right corner of the bridge. It almost tipped the truck over but it came back down. It tipped it up to about a 30 degree angle to the left and it came back down on its wheels and almost instantaneously behind that I saw girders falling in my rearview mirror."


If you look at the picture, you can see the bridge is arched and isn't as tall in the right lane as it is in the left. It sounds like the truck hit the corner, tipped up on it's side, veered into the left lane (where the bridge is taller) and continued on off the bridge on the other end and stopped.
052313-ST-Skagit-Bridge[1].jpg

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

Not to be too much of a homer, but that's not really true. The transportation budget is more than 2.5x the natural resources budget in the state, and the latter budget includes the state's Ag agency and a lot more than your traditionally tree-hugging things.

The State also doesn't have much of a choice regarding endangered species protection -- those expenditures are required under Federal law.

The State's main problem is that it is funded mostly by the sales tax. Revenues get hammered when the economy declines. Efforts to change the tax system to something more stable have been consistently rejected by the voters.

Interestingly, earlier this week WA Governor Inslee proposed increasing the gas tax to pay for transportation infrastructure improvements, even citing the number of decaying bridges in the state as a reason for doing it. Republican leaders that control the state senate indicated their opposition immediately. I haven't seen any indication that they are changing their stance after this disaster.

I see a state income tax coming soon. I don't actually think that would be a bad thing if they prioritize the additional revenue smartly.

[JPhillips]

Check the ratings on local bridges:

http://bridgehunter.com/

One I use regularly is labeled structurally obsolete!

[dawgfan]

So, yeah - initial reports last night suggested the collapse might have been triggered by the oversized truck load that had just crossed it, and officials are confirming that now.

The bridge was deemed "functionally obsolete", which means that it doesn't meet current design guidelines. Specifically, it's too narrow (among other things). That certainly seems to have played a role in this incident - not a lot of margin for error for oversized loads going across.

The good news from this incident is that this bridge was considered at risk for chain reaction failure, and it's fortunate that the collapse of this section didn't cause the remaining spans to also fail - it could have been a worse situation. It's also pretty amazing that nobody seems to have been seriously hurt.

[cartman]

Bridgehunter.com | Taos Gorge Bridge

This isn't a good one to be rated 'structurally deficient"

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I agree with you, we will all pay for these errors, I just think there is plenty to go around when it comes to casting blame, and some of that falls the public.

Oh, no doubt - we're all culpable in this. Nobody likes to see their pet areas of interest have their funding affected. An incident like this might cause a temporary increase in the public's willingness to see higher spending priorities on traffic infrastructure, but that will quickly be forgotten.

I don't think there's an easy solution here - I suspect there are fundamental issues underlying our public spending and revenue sources, all of which are tied into the global economy and our economic system.

I do foresee some serious issues growing in the coming decades as our highway systems, roads, sewers, electrical grid, etc. reach the end of their functional lifespans and we are faced with major costs to repair/replace/upgrade.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I do foresee some serious issues growing in the coming decades as our highway systems, roads, sewers, electrical grid, etc. reach the end of their functional lifespans and we are faced with major costs to repair/replace/upgrade.

This is why I didn't understand why more of the "Stimulus Package"(s) wasn't used on infrastructure, or at least sold that way. Seemed an easy way to prop up the construction industry, create jobs, and sell it to the public.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This is why I didn't understand why more of the "Stimulus Package"(s) wasn't used on infrastructure, or at least sold that way. Seemed an easy way to prop up the construction industry, create jobs, and sell it to the public.

I remember Obama making some speeches where he talked about building up infrastructure, around that time, but was not sure it was directly tied to the stimulus.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I remember Obama making some speeches where he talked about building up infrastructure, around that time, but was not sure it was directly tied to the stimulus.

That's my recollection too - it was a part of the stimulus, but not a very large part, and certainly not the part that was used to sell it to the public.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Check the ratings on local bridges:

Bridgehunter.com: Historic Bridges of the United States

One I use regularly is labeled structurally obsolete!

Ooh, fun. The Longfellow Bridge (a.k.a. main one between downtown Boston and Cambridge)

Deck condition rating: Poor (4 out of 9)
Superstructure condition rating: Serious (3 out of 9)
Substructure condition rating: Fair (5 out of 9)
Appraisal: Structurally deficient
Sufficiency rating: 18.8 (out of 100)

[DaddyTorgo]

Niiiiceee....

A lot of ones around me are functionally obsolete (due to being built long ago), but are structurally fine.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This is why I didn't understand why more of the "Stimulus Package"(s) wasn't used on infrastructure, or at least sold that way. Seemed an easy way to prop up the construction industry, create jobs, and sell it to the public.

Me either. Seemed like the perfect time to make some much needed infrastructure upgrades. Especially when so much of the world is ahead of us in that area.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Ooh, fun. The Longfellow Bridge (a.k.a. main one between downtown Boston and Cambridge)

Deck condition rating: Poor (4 out of 9)
Superstructure condition rating: Serious (3 out of 9)
Substructure condition rating: Fair (5 out of 9)
Appraisal: Structurally deficient
Sufficiency rating: 18.8 (out of 100)

To be fair, even when Boston builds new infrastructure if fails and kills people

Big Dig ceiling collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: And the big dig was necessary and awesome in a lot of ways, still, like with healthcare, it seems like more could be done with the money and that it's really the business entities between the public and the government (the insurance companies, the contractors), that are really the big winners. I feel like Europe could build an entire improved transcontinental road system for $22 billion. We get a bunch of new tunnels and bridges in one city with thousands of leaks and missing lighting fixtures. Here the only public emphasis is on the spending - people either are for it or against it. Just the act of spending the money is seen as solving all problems. By the time you get to the execution the political battle has already been won or lost, and that's when the businesses make a killing.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Me either. Seemed like the perfect time to make some much needed infrastructure upgrades. Especially when so much of the world is ahead of us in that area.

A huge failure of the stimulus IMO. I would guess that (one of) the issue(s) was that a lot of the needed upgrades were not "shovel ready", i.e. specific plans already outlined and just waiting for funding. But this is already enough of a tangent off of the main thread, so I'll stop here.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

To be fair, even when Boston builds new infrastructure if fails and kills people

Big Dig ceiling collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: And the big dig was necessary and awesome in a lot of ways, still, like with healthcare, it seems like more could be done with the money and that it's really the business entities between the public and the government (the insurance companies, the contractors), that are really the big winners. I feel like Europe could build an entire improved transcontinental road system for $22 billion. We get a bunch of new tunnels and bridges in one city with thousands of leaks and missing lighting fixtures. Here the only public emphasis is on the spending - people either are for it or against it. Just the act of spending the money is seen as solving all problems. By the time you get to the execution the political battle has already been won or lost, and that's when the businesses make a killing.

100% agree.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

To be fair, even when Boston builds new infrastructure if fails and kills people

Big Dig ceiling collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: And the big dig was necessary and awesome in a lot of ways, still, like with healthcare, it seems like more could be done with the money and that it's really the business entities between the public and the government (the insurance companies, the contractors), that are really the big winners. I feel like Europe could build an entire improved transcontinental road system for $22 billion. We get a bunch of new tunnels and bridges in one city with thousands of leaks and missing lighting fixtures. Here the only public emphasis is on the spending - people either are for it or against it. Just the act of spending the money is seen as solving all problems. By the time you get to the execution the political battle has already been won or lost, and that's when the businesses make a killing.

Yup, I remember that one, and the part that gets me is that we're basically trying to sue the old companies for negligence, while paying "new" companies made up of largely the same people to fix the problems. And somehow all that profit paid into the first company has been pulled out or moved around to different companies, so the negligent ones are free to effectively declare bankruptcy and fold so the state can't collect money or send people to jail for the negligence, and then they just start up a new company.

(To be fair on the specific bridge I pulled, they are doing some sort of construction on the Longfellow right now, and on the one next to Harvard Stadium, but it always seems like the answer is to patch up existing things and extend their lifespan instead of systematically going through and building things better one at a time. The MBTA is probably the most obvious example of that.)

And FWIW, I couldn't find the recently built bridges and overpasses on/next to 93 on the website, but I don't even know what they're called (other than the Zakim Bridge).

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by molson

. I feel like Europe could build an entire improved transcontinental road system for $22 billion. We get a bunch of new tunnels and bridges in one city with thousands of leaks and missing lighting fixtures.

Trust me, we are more than capable of spending billions and getting nothing back in Europe.

The widening of a 20 mile stretch of motorway near London is costing about $10bn, so $22 billion won't go as far as you think.

[BishopMVP]

Rough day indeed. (Wife has some internal bleeding, but expected to be fine.)

Bridge Collapse Survivor: 'Rough Day' - YouTube

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Ryan S

Trust me, we are more than capable of spending billions and getting nothing back in Europe.

The widening of a 20 mile stretch of motorway near London is costing about $10bn, so $22 billion won't go as far as you think.

im sure most of us are well aware governments across the globe are inefficient and wasteful

[JonInMiddleGA]

Why would you issue a 15'9" permit for a 14'9" bridge? That 17' figure is nice but from the pic Scooter shared, I'm thinking you just about have to give the tall load the middle lane to pull it off.

State officials approved the trucking company to carry a load as high as 15 feet, 9 inches, according to the permit released by the state. However, the southbound vertical clearance on the Skagit River bridge is as little as 14 feet, 9 inches, state records show. The bridge's curved overhead girders are higher in the center of the bridge but sweep lower toward a driver's right side.

The bridge has a maximum clearance of about 17 feet, but there is no signage to indicate how to safely navigate the bridge with a tall load.

The permit specifically describes the route the truck would take, though it includes a qualification that the state "Does Not Guarantee Height Clearance."

[dawgfan]

That they issued the permit doesn't bother me so much, but they really should have had signage on the bridge to indicate the minimum and maximum heights.

Of course, the escorts should have known better and instructed the truck to take the left most lanes it could.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Private ownership of bridges isn't the answer...

Crumbling concrete of Ambassador Bridge worries pedestrians, motorists | Windsor Star

[EagleFan]

It has not been a good week for bridges...

2 freight trains collide in Missouri, 7 injured

Edit: The crash caused a bridge to collapse.

[kcchief19]

The scary thing is that this will continue to happen. We've had some close calls here in KC ... the old I-35 bridge near downtown over the Missouri River had a chunk of pavement sink a few years ago and was closed for emergency repairs. We have another overpass on I-35 south of downtown undergoing repairs now.

I-70 across Missouri is a death trap waiting to happen. The bedrock underneath the highway is crumbling, and the state high department has been saying for 15 years the only way to fix it is to completely rebuild (and possibly move) most of I-70 from Kansas City to St. Louis. It's not just the bridges and overpasses ... chunks of the highway could just suddenly collapse due to the fragile foundation.

Problem is the same as everywhere else: fixing roads and bridges isn't sexy, and everybody is hoping someone else will do it.

Occasionally stupid politics do get in the way. Missouri is a weird state where you basically can't raise taxes without a public vote. Everyone has agreed that we need to have a statewide vote for a 1-cent sales tax dedicated to I-70 and other state roads. All the legislature has to do is vote to put it on the ballot. But some legislators are afraid that voting to put it on the ballot will look like voting for a tax increase, so there aren't enough votes to put it on the ballot. As a result, the heavy contractors and unions are going to foot the bill for a petition drive to put it on the ballot.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Why would you issue a 15'9" permit for a 14'9" bridge? That 17' figure is nice but from the pic Scooter shared, I'm thinking you just about have to give the tall load the middle lane to pull it off.

It sounds like the system used to issue the permit is pretty screwed up too. The news last night was saying that it is an online process that is very short. The trucking company inputs their route and the system flags "trouble spots" along the route. It is then up to the trucking company to verify the route and the safety of the load. But then this bridge in particular didn't have any signage. So the state DOT is pointing at the trucking company saying "you should have verified" and the trucking company is pointing at the state saying "there was no warning or signage". I think this one will end up in court with everyone getting tagged.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by scooter

I think this one will end up in court with everyone getting tagged.

This.

Pretty amazing to me that signage isn't required for all bridges on state highways, but then again, that's probably a pretty easy line item to cut on a budget.