Heat pump/Gas furnace questions

[clemsonfan]

We are getting a new heating and cooling system and are trying to decide between a traditional gas furnace and a/c or a dual fuel system (heat pump/gas furnace). Anyone have any experience with heat pumps? Do they really save that much money in the long run? Thanks!

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by clemsonfan

We are getting a new heating and cooling system and are trying to decide between a traditional gas furnace and a/c or a dual fuel system (heat pump/gas furnace). Anyone have any experience with heat pumps? Do they really save that much money in the long run? Thanks!

I'm a bad one to chime in on this. I got rid of all gas in my house because I have a lousy sense of smell. We had a gas water heater that apparently started to leak, but we didn't realise it because it had gradually built up. My wife occasionally smelled a bit here and there, but nothing consistent. Her parents stopped by, could really smell it, we called the gas company, and they found TWO leaks in the supply line for the water heater.

The fact that something in my house could explode without me or my wife noticing the warning signs meant I wanted nothing to do with it. So I'm all electric. I'll take the chance of an electrical fire starting and giving me a shot at getting out vs gas exploding. Especially at the rate we have leaks in the area that cause evacuations (once every few months some construction crew hits a gas line...). No thanks.

[cougarfreak]

I have the duel fuel, and love it. Mine is about 2 years old, have had zero problems. I'm located near cincy, so we would experience similar winters. My dual fuel has a setting to where, if it drops below 35 degrees, the gas furnace kicks on instead of the heat pump. I usually just set my thermostat to "emergency heat" in the winter, and that keeps the gas on regardless. My model is a Trane, not sure what brand you are looking at.

[clemsonfan]

We are actually looking at a Trane heat pump and furnace. Does the dual fuel system save you a good bit of $ on your utility bills?

[cougarfreak]

Yes, it saved quite a bit vs. my old house. Mine is in a brand new house, so I don't know what the bills would be with a regular furnace.

[EagleFan]

Wht are the winter temperatures like where you live?

If it gets below freezing for extended periods of time a heat pump is basically nothing but an electric heater as it will be working off the backup heating coils in order to provide enough heat. If it is below 25 a lot it definitely may not be worth it as the heat pump works against itself (the stored up air gets pushed through first and may be cold air which makes the syste use the backup heating coils that much more).

We had a heat pump where we used to live. It was great when the temperatures were in the 40's and 50's. Once it got below freezing our bills shot through the roof.

[clemsonfan]

Well, I live in Ohio so it gets pretty cold in the winter, that's why we would have a gas furnace for the days it gets below freezing.

[cougarfreak]

How big is your house, and what year was it built?

[clemsonfan]

It was built in 1945 and it's about 1100 square feet. We live in quite a modest abode.

[cougarfreak]

Have you had it reinsulated, etc.? And how old is your current furnace?

[clemsonfan]

Current furnace is upwards of 20 years old and our current a/c does not work. We have not have the house reinsulated but we will probably tackle that project in the next few years as money allows.

[cougarfreak]

Then it should save you a boatload. The way I look at it is, you're getting the best of both worlds, you get a heat pump/ac for spring/fall/summer, and a gas furnace for winter.

[clemsonfan]

Thanks for the help! I am feeling better about getting a heat pump now.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by clemsonfan

Thanks for the help! I am feeling better about getting a heat pump now.

I'd just make sure if there is a setting, that you get the gas furnace set to kick on if it gets below about 40. If not, see if there will be a setting on the thermostat that will allow you to go gas only. Mine is emergency heat.

[cougarfreak]

So.............just to revisit. My house is now 6 years old, and the heat pump/ac unit wouldn't cool my house when I turned it on for the first time this year. Just had the company out that installed it in the house when it was new. They said it's low on refrigerant, there's a leak, and I had three choices. A. Charge it up, (said about $300), B. fix the leak (they think it's in the inside coil, not sure) for $1900, or C. replace the whole unit for about $3900, and you get a 5 year warranty with the new unit. They won't warranty any longer than 5 years, because they lose money on warranties past that time period. I chose to recharge and see how long it lasts before I replace it.

[Warhammer]

Chances are it is the coil, the problem is, once you start losing charge, it will progressively get worse. Also, most HVAC companies warrant their products for 7-10 years now. The flip side of that, the expected life for many units has gone down from 20 to 15 years now.

What was causing the condensation in the unit? Was there a lot of short cycling? Was your filter clogged?

[stevew]

My old AC unit is shot. I know about all the rules, etc, but how much is something like that worth in scrap? Looks to have a lot of copper FWIW.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Chances are it is the coil, the problem is, once you start losing charge, it will progressively get worse. Also, most HVAC companies warrant their products for 7-10 years now. The flip side of that, the expected life for many units has gone down from 20 to 15 years now.

What was causing the condensation in the unit? Was there a lot of short cycling? Was your filter clogged?

No, I clean the filter religiously at 30 days. And I was on their "maintenance" plan, where they checked the AC and the furnace twice a year for $230 to hopefully avoid what happened. Needless to say, I'm off their plan now. I was told if they install a new unit, they will only warranty it for 5 years, because with extended warranties, they lose too much money. I was also told had I purchased the extended warranty when I moved in, it would have knocked the price on coil replacement from $1900 to $1200. Which isn't much savings, considering the extended warranty was $900. Keep in mind, this is a "licensed" Trane dealer. I'll be finding a new company.

[CU Tiger]

Couple things to add.

#1 Trane was recently acquired by Ingersol-Rand. They went from the industry leader in quality and service to greatly increased profitability and horrible customer service. My Grandmother's unit went out a couple weeks back and a simple part was back ordered nationally for 16 weeks. This is a 4-5 year old unit. Research then led me to the above discovery.

#2 It is not that difficult to find the leak using a UV dye and a black light. Then most all fixxes can be repaired. Total cost should be less than $250. A main coil SHOULD have a 10 year parts warranty directly from Trane. You would owe for labor to replace...but thats a 3-4 hour job. Figure $60/hour and maybe $200 for refrigerant...$6-700 is stretching it...the numbers you are throwing around are cra-cra.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Couple things to add.

#1 Trane was recently acquired by Ingersol-Rand. They went from the industry leader in quality and service to greatly increased profitability and horrible customer service. My Grandmother's unit went out a couple weeks back and a simple part was back ordered nationally for 16 weeks. This is a 4-5 year old unit. Research then led me to the above discovery.

#2 It is not that difficult to find the leak using a UV dye and a black light. Then most all fixxes can be repaired. Total cost should be less than $250. A main coil SHOULD have a 10 year parts warranty directly from Trane. You would owe for labor to replace...but thats a 3-4 hour job. Figure $60/hour and maybe $200 for refrigerant...$6-700 is stretching it...the numbers you are throwing around are cra-cra.

Contacted an independent guy. He's coming out next week, and gave me figures similar to yours. Evidently the warranty didn't kick in because "I" didn't activate it upon my move in. I thought the builder did (all the paperwork was in a flap attached to the furnace). Doesn't make sense to me, it had to be "activated" within 60 days of install. Well.......I didn't move in that quick. I think Trane sucks.

[Warhammer]

Yes, Trane sucks. They are currently living on their reputation.

[Butter]

FYI, since I am clemsonfan's husband, we ended up buying a system that was not a Trane but had a 10 year warranty at the time it was purchased.

Right around July of 2011, we had an interesting series of events happen. We had a major storm knock a tree branch down and destroy one side of our fence and decided that same week that we wanted to move.

By August we were looking at houses, and we ended up moving further south (but still in the Dayton area) by Halloween 2011.

Our neighbors at this old house with the new A/C unit always seemed shady. Well, by early summer 2012 our renovations at this house were about up and we were deciding whether to sell or rent. Around this time, we discovered that someone had tried to hack into the coolant supply line and did hack into some other parts of the unit. We thought maybe copper thieves who noticed the house was vacant.

We called our A/C people who said that we basically just needed one of the lines fixed and coolant replaced. It was like $200 or something. Literally one week after the fix, it happened again only with worse damage. I was extremely upset, and the cops were as helpful as they could be, but that wasn't super helpful. Next day I had a sheet metal shop out to fashion an A/C cage to keep the thieves out. The repair on the 2nd round of damage was about $1100, plus about $500 for the cage.

That was the end of the attempt to break into the A/C, but I would be lying if I said that the visual of the cage made the house easier to rent.

Fast forward to mid-November 2012. My wife's friend from this old neighborhood calls us and says there's a SWAT Team at our house. Turns out it wasn't at our house, but our next door neighbor. You guessed it, it was a meth lab and they were dealing meth out of the house. No doubt they were hacking into our coolant line... though I'm not sure if they were using it in manufacturing the meth or just huffing it.

Fast forward again to today. Last week, our renters said that they tried to use the A/C for the first time this year and it wasn't getting cold. Sure enough, one of the coils was cracked and it was leaking refrigerant. Luckily, my system is still under warranty (actually for another 6 years) so it didn't cost me a dime.

Also, where that house used to stand is now an empty lot. The old lady who lived there with her ne'er-do-well son never paid her property taxes. Plus, with all the meth they were making, the city decided just to raze the house.

[CraigSca]

Interesting about Trane - we bought a new system from them 2.5 years ago and haven't had a problem. It's funny, depending on who you talk to, I have heard the same thing about other systems ("recently bought by X company and now their systems suck").

Trane was bought 8 years ago. Sorry to hear about the back-ordered part. Ugh.

[CraigSca]

Here's a great site that will discourage you from buying any vendor's AC/heat pump/furnace (AKA your typical internet buying site that shows a 2:1 ratio of complaints/recommendations)!

https://www.furnacecompare.com/

[CraigSca]

How's this for timing? My 18 year old AC unit is now leaking refrigerant from the coils (bleeds out overnight after a complete refill) and therefore the entire system needs replacing. Got up to 88 degrees upstairs last night.

Really looking forward to this!