2015 Baseball HOF Voting

[Ramzavail]

dola: the knee jerk reaction would be to isolate that person and demonize him. But it just illustrates the point that you can't tell so stop trying to legislate with your votes.

[miked]

Let's not all forget that Piazza was a cheater too. And outside his quantitative ability to "frame" pitches, he was a pretty mediocre catcher.

I guess if he admitted to doing andro, we can assume he didn't roid up either. Not saying he does not deserve it, he was probably one of the best hitting catchers in history. Just that the silliness involving Bonds and Clemens should be put in to perspective considering there is as much "evidence" Piazza was a juicer as there was against the Rocket.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Ramzavail

My dream is someone like Cal Ripken Jr. or Griffey comes out and says he used PEDs.

Minds would be blown.

Or how about Jeter?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.2486859

[Toddzilla]

What bothers me most about the way voting is conducted is that players are voted on based on whether or not they meet the arbitrary "Are they in the top 10 eligible?" standard.

It should be simple - and I'm not the first to say this by any means.

By each players name there should be one question - "Does this player belong in the Baseball Hall of Fame?" - and everyone is judged on that merit alone.

[Toddzilla]

Dola - I know not every writer voted for the max 10 players - but I suspect it would make a difference.

[ISiddiqui]

Fangraphs actually discussed Edmonds, FWIW:

Appreciating Jim Edmonds | FanGraphs Baseball

But that doesn’t mean that Jim Edmonds didn’t do it all. He was a world champion, a four-time All-Star and an eight-time Gold Glover. He had the well-rounded, complete game of a Hall of Famer. He had the bat of a Hall of Famer, and he had the glove of a Hall of Famer. He had the peak years of a Hall of Famer, and he had the signature moments of a Hall of Famer. He’ll always have all of that. He just didn’t have the support of a Hall of Famer.

[Arles]

Edmonds was certainly worthy of 5% and is one of the big "unsung heroes" of the Cardinals resurgence. Those late 90s teams were all over the hill and mediocre. Everyone remembers McGwire, but fossils like Ron Gant, Gary Gaetti, Eric Davis and a 75-year old Willie McGee (who was part of the 1982 title team) all had significant roles. I think Kent Merker and the Benes brothers were most of the pitching then too. It was rough baseball. They were 75-86 in 1999. Then, in 2000, they added two key guys: Jim Edmonds and Darryl Kile (RIP). That season, they won the central with 95 wins. They still rolled out 33+ year old guys in Ray Lankford, Mac, Eric Davis, Shawon Dunston and even a cameo by 36-year old Will "the Thrill" Clark during one of Mac's injury stints. But Edmonds was a monster, he hit .295/.411/.583 with 42 HR and over 100 walks. He had a 6.3 WAR and went on to have WAR values of 5.8, 6.7, 6.0 and 7.2 his first 5 seasons in St. Louis. Overall, he averaged a WAR of 5.5 in a stretch from 1995 (3rd season) through 2005. If you take Dawson's best similar stretch (78-88), he averaged 4.6. The only reason people talk about Dawson is he was allowed to wallow in the mud from 1989 through 1995, when he averaged a WAR of 1.1. But, he managed another 140 HR and got some bigger totals.

For their career, here are the two guys' 162 game average:
Dawson: .279/.323/.482, 27 HR, 98 RBI, 85 R, 19 SB and 3.07 Ave WAR (21 years)
Edmonds: .284/.376/.527, 32 HR, 97 RBI, 101 R, 5 SB and 3.55 Ave WAR (17 years)

I think it's pretty clear - whether you look at career averages or best 10-year prime, Edmonds had better numbers. Plus, the Cards went from 70-80 wins to 95 in the first year with Edmonds (with marginal talent around him). The Cubs won 70 games in 1986 before Dawson and only had one year above 80 wins with him. Heck, the Expos were in the 70s and 80s with him as well. They had one of the best years the season he left (91 wins in 1987). Dawson's Cubs had 76 that year (his MVP season).

[Arles]

Final point on Edmonds - Here are the 162-game averages for Jim (2.5% of the vote) and Edgar Martinez (43%):

Edmonds (17 years): .284/.376/.527, 32 HR, 97 RBI, 101 R, 291 total bases, 5 SB and 3.55 Ave WAR
Martinez (18 years): .312/.418/.515, 24 HR, 99 RBI, 96 R, 293 total bases, 4 SB and 3.79 Ave WAR

I don't see a 40% difference in those numbers - especially since one was a DH and the other won the gold glove in CF 8 times.

[tarcone]

Thank you for the posts on Edmonds. I do appreciate the numbers. But, man, that pisses me off even more that he didn't get at least 5%.

[stevew]

Well if anyone really loves Jim Edmonds, he's on The Real Housewives of OC so you can catch him there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ramzavail

My dream is someone like Cal Ripken Jr. or Griffey comes out and says he used PEDs.

Minds would be blown.

And in that scenario I'd be just as fine with them being forever absent from the Hall.

And, yes, if it was Maddux I'd say & feel the same.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Thank you for the posts on Edmonds. I do appreciate the numbers. But, man, that pisses me off even more that he didn't get at least 5%.

I probably would not put him in but I find it absurd he's off in one try. Felt the same with Whitaker.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

I probably would not put him in but I find it absurd he's off in one try.

Kinda this, I mean a LOT worse have reached 5% in the past.

But since I don't know that I'd put him in at any point I'm not overly upset about it either.

[Buccaneer]

The fallacy in comparing Edmonds to Dawson is in assuming Dawson deserved to be a HOFer. He's didn't and thus, that doesn't make Edmonds anywhere close to being one. Whether he should have gotten more than 5%, I can agree with that.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

The fallacy in comparing Edmonds to Dawson is in assuming Dawson deserved to be a HOFer. He's didn't and thus, that doesn't make Edmonds anywhere close to being one. Whether he should have gotten more than 5%, I can agree with that.

Yeah but you're already an unabashed small haller.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by stevew

Well if anyone really loves Jim Edmonds, he's on The Real Housewives of OC so you can catch him there.

The guy has always come off as a major douchebag. I have a feeling that's a contributing factor to his lack of votes. Then again, the baseball Hall of Fame has always come off more like a country club than a recognition of baseball greatness.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And in that scenario I'd be just as fine with them being forever absent from the Hall.

And, yes, if it was Maddux I'd say & feel the same.

You may have been asked this before, so apologies if so but I'm curious what your thoughts are on all the older players who were outwardly popping "greenies" for decades and what impact that should have on their HOF inclusion.