TCY to 5.0b -- Super-fast quarterbacks?

QuikSand · 12-04-2003, 08:00 AM

Playing my first career in FOF 2004, I have opted to try out a few options - mostly to see how well they work. One is that I'm using the draft files from my latest TCY career.

In my first draft, I was shocked to see a QB with a 40-time that ranked him among the top players in the whole draft. He looked like a decent prospect overall, so I picked him up in round two.

Entering his second year in the league, he ranks 10th on the "League's fastest man" listings, which I find odd - but maybe not in itself all that problematic. What concerns me is that there is a second QB on that list - another rookie, from the subsequent year's draft.

Yes, I know, Michael Vick this, Michael Vick that. Fine. It's tough to argue that it is either realistic or particularly good for the game to have a substantial share of the league's fastest players be quarterbacks. (I don't yet know if I'm heading in that direction, or if this is just a fluke -- I've only played one and one half seasons so far)

Is anyone else seeing an inordinate number of lightning-fast quarterbacks in your TCY-generated draft files?

rjolley · 12-04-2003, 08:41 AM

Actually, Vick wouldn't be the only example of that type of QB. Most are usually switched to WR or CB/S when they come to the NFL. Not sure how fast they are, but a couple of the WRs in Pittsburgh were QBs.

How fast was/is Kordell Stewart, Dante Culpepper, and Donovan McNabb?

I don't think it's odd to have QBs that fast, I think in real life they're switched to different positions.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 08:43 AM

Think of Steve Young in his early years...he was REAL fast. Remember that he even played RB in the USFL.

He had RB speed for a QB.

corbes · 12-04-2003, 08:46 AM

My game-generated draft produced a QB with 4.38 speed (and with 100 scramble frequency, and as a roll-out style passer). I took him, and he usually places somewhere in the League's Fastest Man list.

He routinely breaks off 10, 20, & 30 yard scrambles, and runs for about 500 yards a year.

Ben E Lou · 12-04-2003, 08:47 AM

Quik:

I haven't looked at enough TCY-5.0b files to make an impression, but if two QB's show up every year on that list, that's probably too many.

Plus, it might make Buc go apoplectic on us...

WSUCougar · 12-04-2003, 08:48 AM

Yeah, there's fast, but then there's Top 10 in the NFL fast. We're talking the elite speed in a league where it's at a premium. Given that WR, CB, and RB are all speed-oriented positions for the most part, you don't want 20% of your Top 10 at a position that is not specifically geared toward it. I think Vick is an exception. None of the other QBs mentioned are in that class.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corbes
My game-generated draft produced a QB with 4.38 speed (and with 100 scramble frequency, and as a roll-out style passer). I took him, and he usually places somewhere in the League's Fastest Man list.

He routinely breaks off 10, 20, & 30 yard scrambles, and runs for about 500 yards a year.

Well lucky you. That's exactly what I would have loved to get from my QB as far as rushing abilities go.
My current QB (Aaron Tipton) is a stud..but strictly a pocket passer...and that's not my cup of tea.

rjolley · 12-04-2003, 08:54 AM

I think it's odd for 2 QBs to be on that list, but I think it's not totally out of the question. Many players come out of high school as QBs and are switched to another skill position. Maybe in TCY, they weren't switched and came through to FOF as a QB as well.

It'd be nice if they could be switched over though...

corbes · 12-04-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WSUCougar
Yeah, there's fast, but then there's Top 10 in the NFL fast. We're talking the elite speed in a league where it's at a premium. Given that WR, CB, and RB are all speed-oriented positions for the most part, you don't want 20% of your Top 10 at a position that is not specifically geared toward it. I think Vick is an exception. None of the other QBs mentioned are in that class.

I thought when I drafted my guy that it was probably unrealistic. But when he takes off, I forget all about it.

The only probably is, he makes my RB crew look like a bunch of donkeys (which they are).

mckerney · 12-04-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rjolley
Actually, Vick wouldn't be the only example of that type of QB. Most are usually switched to WR or CB/S when they come to the NFL. Not sure how fast they are, but a couple of the WRs in Pittsburgh were QBs.

How fast was/is Kordell Stewart, Dante Culpepper, and Donovan McNabb?

I don't think it's odd to have QBs that fast, I think in real life they're switched to different positions.

Culpepper's got better speed than your average QB, but he wouldn't even rank among the fasted guys on the Vikings, much less in the league.

Honolulu Blue · 12-04-2003, 10:14 AM

I've found that much the same thing happens in the non-TCY drafts - some of the fastest players are QBs.

I'm guessing that having two of the top 10 fastest men be QBs is mostly an aberration, and partly Jim's "vision" of how fast he thinks QBs are.

WSUCougar · 12-04-2003, 10:16 AM

Maybe it's just an athletical thing.

NoMyths · 12-04-2003, 10:17 AM

It's not just TCY drafts. I drafted a game-generated QB who ran around a 4.3 and has made the fastest man lists at that speed.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 10:46 AM

well although 2 out of 10 may be a bit "far-fetched"...1 out of 10 wouldn't kill me.
That's not something I'll stand over and looked at amazed like "oh my God ! this is plainfully WRONG" !

There are other things (namely the Depth Chart issue with the G as the #2 Center instead of the backup Center himself for instance) that bug me more 10 times more than this.

judicial clerk · 12-04-2003, 11:01 AM

Who is the fastest man in the NFL?

primelord · 12-04-2003, 11:01 AM

I am just guessing here, but I think having super fast QB's is probably a necesary evil if we want FOF to mirror QB's like Vick, McNabb, etc. We all know that breakaway speed is probably the most important rating for a RB in terms of getting good yards out of him. The 40 time seems to directly translate to a RB's breakaway speed.

I think the same applies for a QB. In the FOF world in order for them to be productive running the ball it seems to make sense that they would need high ratings in similar areas to RB's. So many of them probably have good speed ratings which of course the game then translates into good 40 times.

mckerney · 12-04-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by judicial clerk
Who is the fastest man in the NFL?

Could be Michael Bennett. He is an Olympic class sprinter.

corbes · 12-04-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkiller
!

There are other things (namely the Depth Chart issue with the G as the #2 Center instead of the backup Center himself for instance) that bug me more 10 times more than this.

Yeah, why is that? I just thought my backup center sucked too bad.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 11:08 AM

It's just something that a lot of people around here seem to have experienced with FOF2004...
the scout will "recommend" everyone but your #2 Center for the backup Center position. frustrating.

MrBug708 · 12-04-2003, 11:10 AM

I had a QB that had a 4.27 40 time. Broke his leg in his third year and didn't see him on the list after that

QuikSand · 12-04-2003, 11:12 AM

I understand that there are QBs in the NFL who possess "great speed" - but in nearly all cases, that is really translated as "great speed for a guy actually playing quarterback."

Who are the fastest players in the real NFL right now? I am certain that you'd see a list of players who play wide receiver, running back, and perhaps cornerback. That's about it. Michael Vick might make the list - though his "speed" might really be more connected to agility and maneuverability than pure point-to-point acceleration. Regardless, I think it's very unlikely that any other QB in modern NFL history has ever ranked in the league's Top 20 in this category (measured or otherwise).

Again, if this doesn't really screw up playability that much, I won't mind the departure from realism. But it's really tough to suggest that having two or more QBs out of an average league's top 20 is in any way realistic. (The arguments that many fleet-footed college QBs are converted to other positions to play inthe NFL only reinforces this point, I think, rather than contradicting it)

mckerney · 12-04-2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by QuikSand
Regardless, I think it's very unlikely that any other QB in modern NFL history has ever ranked in the league's Top 20 in this category (measured or otherwise).

Does anyone know what kind of speed Marcus Vick posseses? I suppose we could see this kind of this if he's enough like his brother.

HornedFrog Purple · 12-04-2003, 11:21 AM

Doesn't mean anything unless you are noticing numerous QB's with great speed and high scramble frequency.

In almost every draft I have run there are a few 50'ish potential QBs left in the 7th round with very low dash times.

Vick fully healthy is easily a top-10 fastest player in the NFL. His basic combines (not including the extra specialty tests for QBs)were insane for any position.

VPI97 · 12-04-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mckerney
Does anyone know what kind of speed Marcus Vick posseses? I suppose we could see this kind of this if he's enough like his brother.

4.4 to 4.5 are what he runs at the VT facility. Compared to Michael's 4.2 to 4.3 times, Marcus is a slowpoke.

oykib · 12-04-2003, 11:28 AM

Cunningham was also reputed to have run 4.3 in some workouts. I doubt tht he consistently ran it, though. However there's a chance that he was in the top ten in his day.

Still, I get wht you are talking about. My current backup is one of those 100 scramble frequency guys. I selected him because he had a 4.36 40 among his other ratings.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 11:42 AM

One must consider Pro Football History as well.
In the past : QB were not asked to be mobile. they were an abberation.
Teams wanted classic drop back passers and that was it (meaning there might have been some speedy/fast QBs but no one could tell since they never ran the football).

It is not until Cunningham and Young in the late '80s (Tarkenton WAS seen has an abberation at his time) that the nature of the QB position changed and that mobile QBs became considered as assets and no more as hybrid QB/RBs.

primelord · 12-04-2003, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkiller
It is not until Cunningham and Young in the late '80s (Tarkenton WAS seen has an abberation at his time) that the nature of the QB position changed and that mobile QBs became considered as assets and no more as hybrid QB/RBs.

I guess Staubach doesn't count either?

Travis · 12-04-2003, 11:55 AM

To raise a small point, and Blade will chuckle at me saying this I'm sure. Seneca Wallace (5'11, 196 lbs) in Seattle (our #3 QB right now, in his rookie season) is in the same mould as Vick. Cannon arm, lightning quick, and in the preseason, showed how athletic he was in creating plays out of nothing and virtually outrunning nearly anybody on the football field. If he can figure out how to polish his QB skills, he's going to be a great talent, and I think it's his arm and his ability to show touch on the deep ball that is preventing them from trying a position switch with him at this point, it's his decision making and recognition that need work. Apparently he was originally recruited as a DB by Oregon State, but ended up as QB for Iowa State.

Long story short, he's one of, if not the, fastest guy on the Hawks and yes, he's a QB.

HornedFrog Purple · 12-04-2003, 12:05 PM

Yeah it's the same thing with Quincy here. He is actually pretty quick when he runs around but you don't notice it because of his stride, like Randall he just kind of glides around.

I think in the Cowboys camp, it was Galloway, then Carter for times. The only other one that might be faster than him is Cason who is the 3rd down specialty back. He is definitely one of the top 4 anyways.

Darkiller · 12-04-2003, 12:10 PM

I forgot to mention Staubach that's right. He was an escape artist.

Anyway, I guess you see my point Primelord.

They were not really "considered" for their rushing abilities as much as they are now because the focus was definitely different.

Daimyo · 12-04-2003, 12:25 PM

Even a guy like Randel El only ran a 4.55 40 and I imagine he would easily be one of the fastest QB's had he stuck at QB. Definately not realistic to see such fast QB's, but I doubt it has a real affect on game play. Would be interesting to convert one of the super fast QB's to RB and see what kind of breakaway speed they have.

rjolley · 12-04-2003, 01:21 PM

Quiksand:

The fact that most are converted in college wouldn't happen in a TCY universe, so there would be more generated from a TCY season. That was were I was going....until someone said they saw the same thing with a FOF-generated draft. Then I just let that point go.

12-04-2003, 08:47 AM	#5
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Quik: I haven't looked at enough TCY-5.0b files to make an impression, but if two QB's show up every year on that list, that's probably too many. Plus, it might make Buc go apoplectic on us... __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

12-04-2003, 08:48 AM	#6
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Yeah, there's fast, but then there's Top 10 in the NFL fast. We're talking the elite speed in a league where it's at a premium. Given that WR, CB, and RB are all speed-oriented positions for the most part, you don't want 20% of your Top 10 at a position that is not specifically geared toward it. I think Vick is an exception. None of the other QBs mentioned are in that class. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

12-04-2003, 10:16 AM	#12
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Maybe it's just an athletical thing. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

12-04-2003, 10:46 AM	#14
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	well although 2 out of 10 may be a bit "far-fetched"...1 out of 10 wouldn't kill me. That's not something I'll stand over and looked at amazed like "oh my God ! this is plainfully WRONG" ! There are other things (namely the Depth Chart issue with the G as the #2 Center instead of the backup Center himself for instance) that bug me more 10 times more than this. __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

12-04-2003, 11:01 AM	#16
primelord Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000	I am just guessing here, but I think having super fast QB's is probably a necesary evil if we want FOF to mirror QB's like Vick, McNabb, etc. We all know that breakaway speed is probably the most important rating for a RB in terms of getting good yards out of him. The 40 time seems to directly translate to a RB's breakaway speed. I think the same applies for a QB. In the FOF world in order for them to be productive running the ball it seems to make sense that they would need high ratings in similar areas to RB's. So many of them probably have good speed ratings which of course the game then translates into good 40 times. __________________ .

12-04-2003, 08:41 AM	#2
rjolley College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Roseville, CA	Actually, Vick wouldn't be the only example of that type of QB. Most are usually switched to WR or CB/S when they come to the NFL. Not sure how fast they are, but a couple of the WRs in Pittsburgh were QBs. How fast was/is Kordell Stewart, Dante Culpepper, and Donovan McNabb? I don't think it's odd to have QBs that fast, I think in real life they're switched to different positions.

12-04-2003, 08:43 AM	#3
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	Think of Steve Young in his early years...he was REAL fast. Remember that he even played RB in the USFL. He had RB speed for a QB. __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

12-04-2003, 08:46 AM	#4
corbes College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003	My game-generated draft produced a QB with 4.38 speed (and with 100 scramble frequency, and as a roll-out style passer). I took him, and he usually places somewhere in the League's Fastest Man list. He routinely breaks off 10, 20, & 30 yard scrambles, and runs for about 500 yards a year.

12-04-2003, 08:54 AM	#8
rjolley College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Roseville, CA	I think it's odd for 2 QBs to be on that list, but I think it's not totally out of the question. Many players come out of high school as QBs and are switched to another skill position. Maybe in TCY, they weren't switched and came through to FOF as a QB as well. It'd be nice if they could be switched over though...

12-04-2003, 10:14 AM	#11
Honolulu Blue Dynasty Boy Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Michigan	I've found that much the same thing happens in the non-TCY drafts - some of the fastest players are QBs. I'm guessing that having two of the top 10 fastest men be QBs is mostly an aberration, and partly Jim's "vision" of how fast he thinks QBs are.

12-04-2003, 10:17 AM	#13
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	It's not just TCY drafts. I drafted a game-generated QB who ran around a 4.3 and has made the fastest man lists at that speed.

12-04-2003, 11:01 AM	#15
judicial clerk College Benchwarmer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Portland, OR	Who is the fastest man in the NFL?

12-04-2003, 11:08 AM	#19
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	It's just something that a lot of people around here seem to have experienced with FOF2004... the scout will "recommend" everyone but your #2 Center for the backup Center position. frustrating. __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

12-04-2003, 11:10 AM	#20
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	I had a QB that had a 4.27 40 time. Broke his leg in his third year and didn't see him on the list after that

12-04-2003, 11:12 AM	#21
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	I understand that there are QBs in the NFL who possess "great speed" - but in nearly all cases, that is really translated as "great speed for a guy actually playing quarterback." Who are the fastest players in the real NFL right now? I am certain that you'd see a list of players who play wide receiver, running back, and perhaps cornerback. That's about it. Michael Vick might make the list - though his "speed" might really be more connected to agility and maneuverability than pure point-to-point acceleration. Regardless, I think it's very unlikely that any other QB in modern NFL history has ever ranked in the league's Top 20 in this category (measured or otherwise). Again, if this doesn't really screw up playability that much, I won't mind the departure from realism. But it's really tough to suggest that having two or more QBs out of an average league's top 20 is in any way realistic. (The arguments that many fleet-footed college QBs are converted to other positions to play inthe NFL only reinforces this point, I think, rather than contradicting it)

12-04-2003, 11:21 AM	#23
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Doesn't mean anything unless you are noticing numerous QB's with great speed and high scramble frequency. In almost every draft I have run there are a few 50'ish potential QBs left in the 7th round with very low dash times. Vick fully healthy is easily a top-10 fastest player in the NFL. His basic combines (not including the extra specialty tests for QBs)were insane for any position. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

12-04-2003, 11:28 AM	#25
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Cunningham was also reputed to have run 4.3 in some workouts. I doubt tht he consistently ran it, though. However there's a chance that he was in the top ten in his day. Still, I get wht you are talking about. My current backup is one of those 100 scramble frequency guys. I selected him because he had a 4.36 40 among his other ratings.

12-04-2003, 11:42 AM	#26
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	One must consider Pro Football History as well. In the past : QB were not asked to be mobile. they were an abberation. Teams wanted classic drop back passers and that was it (meaning there might have been some speedy/fast QBs but no one could tell since they never ran the football). It is not until Cunningham and Young in the late '80s (Tarkenton WAS seen has an abberation at his time) that the nature of the QB position changed and that mobile QBs became considered as assets and no more as hybrid QB/RBs. __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

12-04-2003, 11:55 AM	#28
Travis Pro Rookie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada eh	To raise a small point, and Blade will chuckle at me saying this I'm sure. Seneca Wallace (5'11, 196 lbs) in Seattle (our #3 QB right now, in his rookie season) is in the same mould as Vick. Cannon arm, lightning quick, and in the preseason, showed how athletic he was in creating plays out of nothing and virtually outrunning nearly anybody on the football field. If he can figure out how to polish his QB skills, he's going to be a great talent, and I think it's his arm and his ability to show touch on the deep ball that is preventing them from trying a position switch with him at this point, it's his decision making and recognition that need work. Apparently he was originally recruited as a DB by Oregon State, but ended up as QB for Iowa State. Long story short, he's one of, if not the, fastest guy on the Hawks and yes, he's a QB. __________________ "I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it." - Rogers Hornsby

12-04-2003, 12:05 PM	#29
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Yeah it's the same thing with Quincy here. He is actually pretty quick when he runs around but you don't notice it because of his stride, like Randall he just kind of glides around. I think in the Cowboys camp, it was Galloway, then Carter for times. The only other one that might be faster than him is Cason who is the 3rd down specialty back. He is definitely one of the top 4 anyways. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

12-04-2003, 12:10 PM	#30
Darkiller FOF2 Guy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Paris, France	I forgot to mention Staubach that's right. He was an escape artist. Anyway, I guess you see my point Primelord. They were not really "considered" for their rushing abilities as much as they are now because the focus was definitely different. __________________ FOF2 lives on / Continue to support the best game ever ! - Owner of the San Francisco 49ers in FOF2 - Charter member of the IHOF and owner of the Paris Musketeers franchise (FOF2004) - Chairman of the IHOF Hall of Fame - Athletic Director of the Brigham Young Cougars in TCY FOF Legend: Hall of Fame QB Brock Sheriff #5, one of the most popular player in Front Office Football history.

12-04-2003, 12:25 PM	#31
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	Even a guy like Randel El only ran a 4.55 40 and I imagine he would easily be one of the fastest QB's had he stuck at QB. Definately not realistic to see such fast QB's, but I doubt it has a real affect on game play. Would be interesting to convert one of the super fast QB's to RB and see what kind of breakaway speed they have.

12-04-2003, 01:21 PM	#32
rjolley College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Roseville, CA	Quiksand: The fact that most are converted in college wouldn't happen in a TCY universe, so there would be more generated from a TCY season. That was were I was going....until someone said they saw the same thing with a FOF-generated draft. Then I just let that point go.

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