Chaos in Baltimore

[cuervo72]

Start building those rap sheets early!

Black student arrests in Jefferson decried in new complaint | NOLA.com

A 15-year-old boy was arrested at school for throwing Skittles candy at another child on the school bus. Though the bus driver told the children to separate before dropping everyone home, the boy was arrested after the other child's parent showed up at school the next day to demand the boy's suspension or punishment. Soon, a deputy handcuffed the boy in front of his class and sent him to the juvenile detention center. Upon his release six days later, a judge remarked, "Am I to get this right: Are we really here about Skittles?"

Everyone knows Skittles are thug candy.

[EagleFan]

That is one poorly written headline.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

That is one poorly written headline.

Let's see if we can do better. "White cops arrest black children simply because they have candy or disabilities"

[CraigSca]

I think it was really smart of the federal government to cause this train crash to divert our attention. /rolleyes

[Dutch]

‘I’m Afraid’: Baltimore Residents Now Want Police to Do More After Arrests Plunge, Violence Soars | TheBlaze.com

BALTIMORE (TheBlaze/AP) — A 31-year-old woman and a young boy were shot in the head Thursday, becoming Baltimore’s 37th and 38th homicide victims so far this month, the city’s deadliest in 15 years.

Meanwhile, arrests have plunged: Police are booking fewer than half the number of people they pulled off the streets last year.

Well, Baltimore is off to a rough start since telling the police to go to hell. But, at least these people aren't dying at the hands of cops, so there's that.

[cuervo72]

`If I get out of my car and make a stop for a reasonable suspicion that leads to probable cause but I make a mistake on it, will I be arrested?’

Oh come on. You make a mistake and a suspect may go free. Unless that mistake is intentionally negligent (which makes it not a mistake) and I dunno, causes extreme harm to the suspect? Even in cases of fatality, police are hardly ever indicted. The above quote seems particularly obtuse.

You don't want the police to police and this is what you get #Baltimore.

Maybe there's a happy medium between heavy-handedness and "fend for yourself." Being accountable for your policing methods shouldn't lead to sulking.

[RainMaker]

Next we just need some local leaders to complain about no jobs and the circle of irony will be complete.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Oh come on. You make a mistake and a suspect may go free. Unless that mistake is intentionally negligent (which makes it not a mistake) and I dunno, causes extreme harm to the suspect? Even in cases of fatality, police are hardly ever indicted. The above quote seems particularly obtuse.



Maybe there's a happy medium between heavy-handedness and "fend for yourself." Being accountable for your policing methods shouldn't lead to sulking.

But it does. So now what?

[muns]

Originally Posted by Dutch

But it does. So now what?

There is also a difference between sulking and letting the community know that you can always feel free to police itself. Police aren't going above and beyond like they used to as far as pulling people over and being proactive. That was part of the problem that everybody identified and complained about. However, what is now being realized is those stops were taking guns and people off the streets. Police are in a no win situation. If they do one of these stops and do it wrong, they will get tossed under the bus. They are viewing this as nothing to gain and everything to lose (their job, their life, their reputation) situation. When they don't do these stops though murders and shootings sky rocket.

Police are still doing their jobs though, just not as proactively as people once again want. If you call the police, they are going to show up and address whatever the problems are. The issue is the community refuses to call the police. They don't want to be seen by the rest of the community helping or communicating with police. The community refuses to step up and take an active role to help keep itself safe. They would rather turn a blind eye, and blame the police. This is Baltimore. We started the "no snitch policy" and have run with it ever since. That active role will never be found unless "no snitching" gets addressed within the culture that it started.

As people are finally starting to notice, this isn't just a police issue. This is a community issue, and the community doesn't want to do what they need to do. The frustrating thing about that is when you point that out, and not in a blaming way, in a way that you are genuinely trying to help, guess what you get labeled as.

2 videos below. the first is a news story of stop snitching. The second is the actual video.

Stop Snitchin' - Stop Snitching 2 - DVD

stop snitchin part 1 of 4 - YouTube

Part 3 below actually has Carmelo Anthony in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-EBv2mPUVo

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Oh come on. You make a mistake and a suspect may go free. Unless that mistake is intentionally negligent (which makes it not a mistake) and I dunno, causes extreme harm to the suspect? Even in cases of fatality, police are hardly ever indicted. The above quote seems particularly obtuse.

.

Even if they aren't indicted their life is forever ruined. That cop in Ferguson did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law, yet good luck not carrying the stain of that the rest of his life.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by muns

Stop Snitchin' - Stop Snitching 2 - DVD

stop snitchin part 1 of 4 - YouTube

Part 3 below actually has Carmelo Anthony in it

stop snitchin part 3 of 4 - YouTube

Snitches get stitches. I like how they copyrighted the second one so that the cops couldn't mass produce it without paying the criminals. LMAO!

[cuervo72]

Eep. (Not sure which thread to put these in nowadays.)

Cop Olympics To Open In Fairfax County, Va., Where Killer Cops Go Free

[cuervo72]

In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me. - The Washington Post

[Dutch]

So what should we do about it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me. - The Washington Post

Cops did everything by the numbers best I can tell from the story and, while unfortunate the initial complaint was bogus, I'd not have them change a fucking thing.

Ruffling feathers is a helluva lot better than burying more cops.

[stevew]

Any article where someone says "As a _____________ ___________ ____________" I just kind of immediately lose interest

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So what should we do about it?

Make a bit of an effort to collect information before rushing in like the Gestapo. They could have stationed officers at the exits and then checked with management first.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Make a bit of an effort to collect information before rushing in like the Gestapo. They could have stationed officers at the exits and then checked with management first.

Seemed rather clear to me that the on-site (i.e. security guard) had little to no credibility with them.

And, frankly, after this absurd sentence "The short-sighted notion that we should always protect ourselves doesn't leave the author in the article with any credibility either.

After reading that, y'know, I'm pretty much "fuck him".

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seemed rather clear to me that the on-site (i.e. security guard) had little to no credibility with them.

Sometimes you need to measure your response though. Three officers with guns drawn seems like overkill. I imagine there are a few posters here that would've gotten irate and ended up with their guts splattered on the wall if their home was invaded in such a manner.

[cuervo72]

A little police work in that case like BillJasper says would probably be a good idea. Do something to verify that the complaint at least may be a valid one.

In general, I don't like the idea that cops can forcefully enter your residence any time they please, and you have to be damned sure not to make any false moves lest you be shot. It seems a little anti-Fourth Amendment.

I also don't get how one can be ok with that, but at the same time advocate being armed for the purpose of warding off armed intruders. (Defend yourself! Except in this case -- but be quick enough in both instances to either shoot or capitulate!) I also find it a dark irony that the freedom of the 2nd Amendment granting us arms in a way makes us even less so, because it just strengthens the state by making it necessary for them to be further militarized for their safety because anyone can have a gun, and cops need to brandish theirs before you do yours.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

In general, I don't like the idea that cops can forcefully enter your residence any time they please, and you have to be damned sure not to make any false moves lest you be shot. It seems a little anti-Fourth Amendment.

I also don't get how one can be ok with that, but at the same time advocate being armed for the purpose of warding off armed intruders. (Defend yourself! Except in this case -- but be quick enough in both instances to either shoot or capitulate!) I also find it a dark irony that the freedom of the 2nd Amendment granting us arms in a way makes us even less so, because it just strengthens the state by making it necessary for them to be further militarized for their safety because anyone can have a gun, and cops need to brandish theirs before you do yours.

+1

We are helping build the police state that we claim to be so afraid of.

[cuervo72]

I mean, I know Jon's not against a police state, but I'd think he'd be against one he wasn't personally running.

But I do shake my head when people are quick to condemn the likes of China or North Korea but greet the rise of no-knock raids with "eh, what are you gonna do?" *shurg*

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

A little police work in that case like BillJasper says would probably be a good idea. Do something to verify that the complaint at least may be a valid one.

In general, I don't like the idea that cops can forcefully enter your residence any time they please, and you have to be damned sure not to make any false moves lest you be shot. It seems a little anti-Fourth Amendment.

I also don't get how one can be ok with that, but at the same time advocate being armed for the purpose of warding off armed intruders. (Defend yourself! Except in this case -- but be quick enough in both instances to either shoot or capitulate!) I also find it a dark irony that the freedom of the 2nd Amendment granting us arms in a way makes us even less so, because it just strengthens the state by making it necessary for them to be further militarized for their safety because anyone can have a gun, and cops need to brandish theirs before you do yours.

It wasn't his residence. If it was his residence this doesn't happen. If a neighbor calls and says that someone is in an apartment that is supposed to be vacant they have their information and have to act on it. If they delayed and someone was injured by an intruder the same people complaining about this would be on here complaining that the police didn't protect the citizens even though they were told there was an intruder.

[cuervo72]

How do they police even know that the neighbors were telling the truth and that the apartment was supposed to be vacant if they didn't speak to the apartment managers or the guard?

[RainMaker]

It seems like the answer is a more tempered response to something like this. Unless you see a weapon or have reports of a weapon, it seems the response is over the top.

[miked]

Are we in such a crazed police state that we blast in to an apartment with guns drawn for a potential squatter. Let's say he was a squatter and made a move because he was surprised and was shot. Does his crime justify that (Jon's usual stupid response not required, we get it)? As others have said, a little tiny bit of extra work...really tiny, could potentially have changed this from a situation where somebody could have died to a simple misunderstanding. I mean, unless this was some known crackhouse, how does making 2 phone calls on the way change this. Maybe sending a few cops to knock on the door instead of barging in guns drawn.

Of course the fact that a vocal minority think that this is perfectly reasonable means it won't change. 'Murica!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Sometimes you need to measure your response though. Three officers with guns drawn seems like overkill. I imagine there are a few posters here that would've gotten irate and ended up with their guts splattered on the wall if their home was invaded in such a manner.

"Sometimes" we need to measure response? So this isn't note-worthy because this is how every situation *always* goes down? I don't buy that for a second. I feel bad for the dude, but if you put a percentage on this, I think its closer to 0% than 100%.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miked

Of course the fact that a vocal minority think that this is perfectly reasonable means it won't change. 'Murica!

If it weren't for cops, there would be no crime? That's what my takeaway is from your responses. Cops should always strive for perfection. So should we as citizens. We are way worse than the cops.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dutch

"Sometimes" we need to measure response? So this isn't note-worthy because this is how every situation *always* goes down? I don't buy that for a second. I feel bad for the dude, but if you put a percentage on this, I think its closer to 0% than 100%.

This is pretty close to how 100% of dumb no-knock raids go down. Unless there is any indication of an imminent threat, and there does not seem to have been, you go knock on the door or stake it out to gather more information. Even if it was an actual crack house, you don't rely solely on a 3rd-party's word.

This also would not happen in any town I've lived in. Even at UMass when dealing with hardo cops who hated the students and arrested close to 100 kids at certain parties for DTP/resisting arrest or new state police cadets who basically were in training on campus the only time I ever saw guns drawn was when the one time saw a gun. (In that case it was an ex-Special Forces friend who was licensed to carry, and who was apologized profusely to when the supervisor arrived on scene.) Fairfax County is notorious for killing unarmed civilians in no-knock raids and traffic stops and stonewalling any investigation into it or any discipline towards the officers involved.

[Dutch]

When it does happen and cops are stonewalling investigations...I think that's where we should start. These are laws we put on the books and I suspect for good reason. However, if we decide we need to stop it, then we need an honest discussion about it. Telling our cops to do it this way and then blasting the entire system as wrong is our fault.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Dutch

If it weren't for cops, there would be no crime? That's what my takeaway is from your responses. Cops should always strive for perfection. So should we as citizens. We are way worse than the cops.

I know you have been playing the obtuse game likely, and since you share my initials I will harbor no ill will. I would probably question the last part of your statement. Just because somebody is a cop does not make them better people. In fact, I'd reckon to say the police are probably a relevant cross-section of our society.

As to the first part, my take away was actual quite simple (but apparently not simple enough). There should be thought put in to these types of things. Obviously I don't know if it's a crackhouse, but I've lived in apartment buildings before. Squatters suck, some of them are druggies and dangerous, others are not. From reading the article and background, it appears that 2 simple phone calls would have been enough to prevent a potential tragedy. I don't know what made the police think the neighbor was so much more trustworthy than the management or security. I also know that there are way too many cases of these no-knock warrant events where we have SWAT type raiding for dime-bag offenses.

There was one in GA where a baby almost died because some dumb cops threw a grenade in to a crib. It was over some drug thing where a) the drug dealers in question were not home but rather some extended family and b) the calls may have been planted by rival drug dealers. I'm not saying cops are all bad, but there are just way too many people getting hurt that probably don't have to, sometimes it's their fault, but sometimes it's a cop.

If this guy was not trained in these situations and reached for his glasses, he could have ended up getting shot, and for nothing. This happens far more often than we want to admit. Just like in some cases they've stopped engaging in high speed chases for petty offenses because it generally causes more harm and they can get a warrant and find the guy later. I know it's hurts egos, and "makes the world less safe that the guy who had a suspended license got away" but perhaps there can be common sense on that side as well. No?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dutch

When it does happen and cops are stonewalling investigations...I think that's where we should start. These are laws we put on the books and I suspect for good reason. However, if we decide we need to stop it, then we need an honest discussion about it. Telling our cops to do it this way and then blasting the entire system as wrong is our fault.

No, nobody is telling our cops to do it this way. This isn't Ferguson, or Freddie Gray, or the guy in NYC who was killed, where there are two legitimate opposing points of view or things go wrong in the heat of the moment. This is a specific departmental policy and approach to policing in a specific county that is unacceptable. I doubt you find anyone outside of the Fairfax County LEO community that supports no-knock raids without gathering any information on a suspected non-violent criminal. I know I come off pretty anti-police in these threads because it's not national news when the 99% of them correctly de-escalate a situation, but I have met a big number of pretty good ones and they would be appalled (and, quite frankly, embarrassed) at these tactics.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by miked

There was one in GA where a baby almost died because some dumb cops threw a grenade in to a crib. It was over some drug thing where a) the drug dealers in question were not home but rather some extended family and b) the calls may have been planted by rival drug dealers. I'm not saying cops are all bad, but there are just way too many people getting hurt that probably don't have to, sometimes it's their fault, but sometimes it's a cop.

It's interesting you bring that case up because the deputy who obtained the warrant has just been indicted by a federal grand jury for lying on the warrant application.

[muns]

Officer Goodsen found not guilty on all accounts. He had the most serious of all the charges against him.

The article says "The state presented a "rough ride" theory which was eventually debunked by testimony from their own police expert witness and was further criticized during the defense's closing statements as a game of three-card Monte played by prosecutors in terms of their theories".

Praying the city is quiet tonight

Officer Caesar Goodson acquitted of all counts | Maryland News - WBAL Home

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by muns

Officer Goodsen found not guilty on all accounts. He had the most serious of all the charges against him.

The article says "The state presented a "rough ride" theory which was eventually debunked by testimony from their own police expert witness and was further criticized during the defense's closing statements as a game of three-card Monte played by prosecutors in terms of their theories".

Praying the city is quiet tonight

Officer Caesar Goodson acquitted of all counts | Maryland News - WBAL Home

And the state was chastised early in the case for withholding information.

0-3 now (thought she still says she's going to retry the first guy. I really don't see the point) If she'd charged correctly, a lot of these things get plead down and we don't waste hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead she overcharged on a massive scale and it'll be a miracle if she gets 1 conviction, much less 6.

Ugh. So horrific.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by TroyF

And the state was chastised early in the case for withholding information.

0-3 now (thought she still says she's going to retry the first guy. I really don't see the point) If she'd charged correctly, a lot of these things get plead down and we don't waste hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead she overcharged on a massive scale and it'll be a miracle if she gets 1 conviction, much less 6.

Ugh. So horrific.

It was clearly a political play. Complete joke that some of the officers were charged (like throwing a manslaughter charge at the one who showed up at the last stop, recommended Gray get medical help, but figured it was quicker to drive to the station than call an ambulance.)

[muns]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It was clearly a political play. Complete joke that some of the officers were charged (like throwing a manslaughter charge at the one who showed up at the last stop, recommended Gray get medical help, but figured it was quicker to drive to the station than call an ambulance.)

No doubt about it. She used the city of Baltimore's anger for her own political aspirations and she is now going up in flames for it.

What mystifies me, is that everybody and their mother knows that "rough rides" happen around here. How in the world did she screw that part of it up? That was 1 charge that should have stuck. The incompetence on that fact alone has me scratching my head about her role going forward and her post.