Armed "Militia" takes over wildlife refuge outpost

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I think the people who took the preserve should spend a long time in jail and still believe the Hammond group was royally screwed by government officials"

This is exactly where I stand.

As I understand it the field burning was actually a prescribed treatment by the BLM for the regeneration of the winter grass.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But look at it another way, the Hammonds basically admit they committed arson and the law says the minimum sentence for that crime is five years. I may question the justice of the law, but I don't like the idea of prosecutors ignoring the law because they don't think it's just. The problem is the law, not necessarily the enforcement of the law.

Sorry we were posting at the same time. They had permission to burn THEIR land and the land under their permit. They did not have permission to burn adjacent land and the fire got away from them. Even on a green burn day.

This is a far cry from arson.

This is where I think these arguments start to get analagous to the 2nd amendment stuff as it relates to life style.

I own a 200 acre pine tree plantation that is controlled burned every 4 years. This burning kills under growth and returns the nutrients in the pine needles on the ground back to the soil, effectively making fertilizer for the growing trees. It is essential to the ROI of the investment vehicle. There are actually state laws that prevent me from being charged if the fire spreads to a neighboring property so long as I burn on "green" days. There are the same laws on the books there, but the loophole is state law is trumped on federal lands.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Sorry we were posting at the same time. They had permission to burn THEIR land and the land under their permit. They did not have permission to burn adjacent land and the fire got away from them. Even on a green burn day.

This is a far cry from arson.

There were two separate fires they were convicted of setting. The one in 2006 was started when there was a burn ban in place.

[cuervo72]

I think the testimony from the grandson/nephew of the two on trial stated that he was told to start fires at the fence at the edge of their ranch. Which seems to be the place you'd want to start them if you were looking for the fire to spread off of your land.

[RainMaker]

You guys should really look through some of the court stuff from the Hammonds trial. Witnesses including a relative of theirs testified that they started the fire to cover up the poaching. Photos showed they started the fire before calling BLM to report that they were going to do a controlled burn.

The other fire was set during a burn ban and put a bunch of firefighters in the area who were fighting other fires at risk.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

This is a far cry from arson.

Not according to multiple judges.

Again, you're arguing what the law should be, not whether the law was properly enforced. Even the Hammonds agree that they violated the law as written.

[mckerney]

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But look at it another way, the Hammonds basically admit they committed arson and the law says the minimum sentence for that crime is five years. I may question the justice of the law, but I don't like the idea of prosecutors ignoring the law because they don't think it's just. The problem is the law, not necessarily the enforcement of the law.

If these guys were anyone other than who they are, the government agrees to a plea deal with minimal jail time.

The problem in this case might be the law, but the government was going to get their blood on this. They were humiliated in court multiple times by these guys.

Which again, is where I said above: If these guys had slightly different values and had a PR team that wasn't taking over a federal compound, the public would be going nuts over what happened to the Hammonds. I'm not saying I even like the Hammonds by the way. Maybe they were poaching. (I simply wouldn't trust a single government witness in this case, however) I just think they were railroaded here and it is a shame.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Apparently his meds arrived shortly after the first video

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You guys should really look through some of the court stuff from the Hammonds trial. Witnesses including a relative of theirs testified that they started the fire to cover up the poaching. Photos showed they started the fire before calling BLM to report that they were going to do a controlled burn.

The other fire was set during a burn ban and put a bunch of firefighters in the area who were fighting other fires at risk.

I did look through it and find the witnesses less than credible.

Look at the Whitey Bulger trial. The government can do some amazing things when it wants to get you or it wants to make it appear like you are something you aren't.

Note: I'm not some nutjob who thinks the government is out to get everyone and I don't buy into ridiculous theories of how they are trying to kill us all.

But there are clearly times when they do things because it fits their agenda and because they've gotten mad.

(Note: If you haven't watched the Bulger documentary on Netflix, I highly urge you to do so)

[Subby]

I'm not going to make a blanket statement about fat white guys with goatees in camo but they are assholes.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Subby

I'm not going to make a blanket statement about fat white guys with goatees in camo but they are assholes.

And you're a dick. AND DICKS FUCK ASSHOLES!

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Dutch

And you're a dick. AND DICKS FUCK ASSHOLES!

You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Subby

You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry.

GET A ROOM

[CU Tiger]

Im a fat white guy with a goatee but no camo right now.

Shew that was close.

[cartman]

Cliven Bundy sent a certified letter to the sheriff of Harney County, the governor of Oregon, and Obama stating he is now the representative of the Branch Dildonians, and for police and federal agents to leave the wildlife refuge. Good luck with that.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Subby

You're wearing camo right now aren't you.

I'm sorry.

Of course not, I'm a dick.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by cartman

... Branch Dildonians... Good luck with that.

That's certainly quite a different interpretation of the Seventh Day Adventists and their prophecy of the Second Coming.

[NobodyHere]

Cliven Bundy, father of Ammon, arrested at Portland International Airport

[cartman]

The last 4 at the refuge are supposed to be surrendering at 8am Pacific. Well, they aren't calling it a surrender, they are trying to make it sound like they are agreeing to leave.

[cartman]

3 of the 4 have surrendered. Fry is the last one left, and he is freaking out at the moment. Things may not end well for him.

[cartman]

The last one was just taken into custody. He went on a bizarre rant before doing so. He finally agreed to come out if the agents outside all said 'hallelujah' at the same time.

[stevew]

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

[PilotMan]

Jesus Christ.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

All I can really come up with is "jury nullification".

Past that, I'm stumped at the moment.

[nol]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

All I can really come up with is "jury nullification".

Past that, I'm stumped at the moment.

That was the first thing I thougt as well. Anyways, the timing certainly couldn't be any better to embolden wannabe militiamen.

[RainMaker]

Is this for just the Oregon case? Aren't the Bundy's also up on charges for stuff in Nevada?

All I can think of is you have to prove they used threat of force and maybe that's tougher to prove than I thought.

LOL at the moron who got himself killed though during this stupid ordeal.

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is this for just the Oregon case? Aren't the Bundy's also up on charges for stuff in Nevada?

All I can think of is you have to prove they used threat of force and maybe that's tougher to prove than I thought.

LOL at the moron who got himself killed though during this stupid ordeal.

Yeah just Oregon and the judge is refusing to release them and is extraditing them to Nevada.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Yeah just Oregon and the judge is refusing to release them and is extraditing them to Nevada.

I read an article earlier on this that said the Bundys lawyer was "tackled by six U.S. marshals" immediately after the verdict was read or something like that. I was trying to figure out if I was reading a parody site at that point.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I read an article earlier on this that said the Bundys lawyer was "tackled by six U.S. marshals" immediately after the verdict was read or something like that. I was trying to figure out if I was reading a parody site at that point.

.

Ammon Bundy's lawyer J Philpot says co-counsel Marcus Mumford was tased by marshals in courtroom #oregonstandoff pic.twitter.com/juu2uZHMB0

— Maxine Bernstein (@maxoregonian) October 27, 2016

@dsstella Attorney Marcus Mumford was tackled to the ground in court after arguing his client should be free to go in light of the verdict

— MJfromLA (@MJfromLA) October 27, 2016

[CU Tiger]

Nope. No personal vendetta by government officials here.
None.


When do we start the riots?

Hot take snapshot of another board I frequent this morning that is a tad more right leaning.

[wustin]

Originally Posted by stevew

Someone wanna explain the not guilty verdict here?

Prosecutor's job is to convince the jury beyond a shadow of a doubt. If you have 15 informants within the militiamen possibly inciting them to do things then there's going to be doubt.

Agent provocateur - Wikipedia

[cartman]

here's the reasoning from one of the jurors:

Juror 4: Oregon standoff prosecutors failed to prove 'intent' to impede federal workers | OregonLive.com

[cartman]

Dola:

This part stuck out to me:

Juror 4 noted the panel couldn't simply rely on the defendants' "defining actions'' to convict.

"All 12 agreed that impeding existed, even if as an effect of the occupation,'' he wrote.

"But we were not asked to judge on bullets and hurt feelings, rather to decide if any agreement was made with an illegal object in mind,'' the Marylhurst student wrote. "It seemed this basic, high standard of proof was lost upon the prosecution throughout.''

It sure would seem to me that keeping the federal workers out, and that their goal was to transfer the ownership of the refuge to the state by occupation would meet that proof.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by cartman

Dola:

This part stuck out to me:



It sure would seem to me that keeping the federal workers out, and that their goal was to transfer the ownership of the refuge to the state by occupation would meet that proof.

They werent charged with impeding, they were charged with conspiring.

They never presented any evidence that they ever discussed a plan.

Bad prosecutory charges?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

They werent charged with impeding, they were charged with conspiring.

Which, I will note, is the exact opposite of at least two versions of the story I ready in the immediate aftermath yesterday. The article went so far as to detail why the impeding charge was the easiest to prove & why it was chosen.

It appears that you're right but you may have to give a pass to anyone who gets it wrong for now, because I definitely read just the opposite yesterday myself.

[RainMaker]

It sounds like the attorney was causing a scene and impeding the detainment of his client. But the use of a stun gun is way too much. If 6 US Marshals can't handle an attorney in a suit without the use of a stun gun, maybe they should be working in another line of work.

[wustin]

DickWhiskey comments on Oregon Malheur Refuge occupiers acquitted on all charges.

[flere-imsaho]

So, white guys with guns can occupy public land, destroy public property, and mess around with sacred Native American artifacts, but unarmed Native Americans can't peacefully (though civil disobediently) protest a pipeline which will threaten their lands and water supply?

Got it.

[wustin]

The prosecutors should've charged them for something else and not conspiracy. The whole thing was incompetence on their part because they couldn't hold up a cohesive narrative for the jury.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

So, white guys with guns can occupy public land, destroy public property, and mess around with sacred Native American artifacts, but unarmed Native Americans can't peacefully (though civil disobediently) protest a pipeline which will threaten their lands and water supply?

Got it.

I saw that Facebook meme too

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

.

Ammon Bundy's lawyer J Philpot says co-counsel Marcus Mumford was tased by marshals in courtroom #oregonstandoff pic.twitter.com/juu2uZHMB0

— Maxine Bernstein (@maxoregonian) October 27, 2016

@dsstella Attorney Marcus Mumford was tackled to the ground in court after arguing his client should be free to go in light of the verdict

— MJfromLA (@MJfromLA) October 27, 2016

Marcus Mumford...isn't that the lead singer of Mumford & Sons?

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Marcus Mumford...isn't that the lead singer of Mumford & Sons?

I bet they used one of those acoustic tasers.