Learning how to say 'No'

[PilotMan]

So guys, I've got a situation with family and it's not a simple answer. You guys are a good sounding board and I'd like to hear some opinions.

The thing is that there's a lot of backstory. Without writing a small novel, let me try and give you the cliffs notes version.

Let's begin with the problem. My MIL has opened a can of worms by asking the Mrs and I to help with respite care for her 2yr old grandchild.

It's complicated.

My MIL is in very poor health. She isn't even my official MIL, but was my wife's dad's mistress (eventual 2nd wife) who got pregnant. She ended being a better mom to my wife than her real mom and has gotten the moniker, mom for it. My wife's real mom was a horrible person who died two years ago. They had a son, who is my wife's 14 yrs younger half brother. He's 28yrs old now.

The short of the long is that he's a fucking mess and she has spent her life enabling him. Her family is very young, and her parents and grandparents are still living and are close by, but not necessarily in good health either. We live about 75 minutes away and only see them a couple times a year at best. He's had 3 DUI's, got into drugs in college and dropped out. He's worked in grocery stores for his job. So he brought an 18yr old home from work, who had been kicked out, moved her in and got her pregnant.

Our official stance was that they should put the baby up for adoption. Neither one of them was in a good place, and it would be best for the baby, but that wasn't the result. The baby was born addicted to heroin and she had been keeping it a secret from him all along. She ended up losing all rights because even after court mandated drug treatment she couldn't stay clean. He took sole custody and his family helped, but he's simply not capable of being a single dad. He fell apart and his addiction to alcohol has fueled some dangerous situations and his mom, and grandparents are exhausted trying to keep up with this nearly 2 yr old little boy. He went to rehab a few weeks back after his mom went into the hospital and he went on a multi day bender. He came back and things were good, but history repeated itself and he's gone back to rehab again and his addictions are growing and worsening.

My wife's parents were dead beat, abusive, pieces of shit. From the time she was 12 she was cooking, cleaning, filling out school paperwork for herself and her older brother. She took care of her friends kids when they had their teen pregnancies, and then she got pregnant herself at 18. We met, and got married, I adopted her son, and we started our family. Our youngest (of 3) just started high school and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. She's been taking care of and had to be responsible for 30 years now, and frankly she's done. We're ready to move on with our lives. We've had a hard path on our own to break away from the failures of our parents families (mine divorced at 2). Married 17 years in November.

We knew it would always come to this. We knew that they could never keep it up, and we knew that our hard work and success would look like an open door to them. The fact that they want us to take him for a weekend here and there isn't really the issue. It's that we don't want to even be put in that situation. We don't want to get attached. We don't want to give them hope. It's too easy for respite to turn into full time and if we go down that path, we have to take some responsibility for his situation, especially if we are putting ourselves into it.

You see, my wife's own childhood was bad. She was dropped off at her grandparents house dozens of times when her parents couldn't feed them, or they were too beat up. Her education was spotty at best. Then her parents would come back and get them it would turn to shit again. She knows that he's in a bad situation. She knows what that's like. She knows that they could come and take him at any time.

It's not an easy place. We don't want to get involved, but I fear that saying no is going to jeopardize the relationship that's there. I know that's not our problem. My wife has been taking care of someone for 30 years now and her childhood was lost. It's time for her to reclaim her life again, and it's not an easy thing that they are asking.

The MIL knows that the chances are that her son could lose custody, or that the boys mom could get it back, or that he could go away. We look like the perfect solution for him to stay in the family and it's not something we can really do. How can we carefully, and tactfully express this while staying true to ourselves? How can we keep from feeling guilty and responsible that this little boy is stuck in this situation, that we could help, but that isn't really our problem?

Like I said. It's complicated, like most things are. Maybe we're awful people because we can't take on everyone else's responsibilities, but maybe we just need to learn the right way to say no and have our own lives respected.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lemme just give you a cold as ice take on it:

but I fear that saying no is going to jeopardize the relationship that's there

Your m-in-law is in "poor health". That relationship is going to end sooner than later regardless. Cold as ice to say it but true based on what's in your post.

We don't want to get involved

Then don't.

No matter the cost, the price is not as bad as making yourselves miserable in a situation that has virtually no chance of ending well for anyone in the first place.

I feel a little bit like Sideshow Bob here, but you asked for opinions, so I'm willing to throw mine into the pile.

[JPhillips]

Can you live with yourself if the child is seriously hurt or dies?

That really seems like the end question. If that doesn't bother you, move on, but I think you already know that's a possibility.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Can you live with yourself if the child is seriously hurt or dies?

To slightly edit this, can your wife live with herself. Because it's her family really and it will affect her more deeply regardless of the decision y'all make. I think if she really does not want to get involved then you just need to lay it all out to the MIL, with all respect of course, and let her know the line and the reason for it and trust that will be good enough. And if it's not good enough for MIL, then maybe Jon is right.

[Drake]

My wife and I adopted her niece's kids (i.e., great niece and nephew) last year after fostering them for 3 years. Similar story. Heroin mess, etc.

It is, bar none, the hardest thing we've ever done. The kids were a mess when we got them, and 4 years in, they're still a mess. Our daughter is nine. She's borderline psychotic. She's been in therapy for years. She's on psych meds. She's a danger to herself and others...sometimes. She tries to be better, sometimes succeeds. We have hope that she'll come around. We're also realistic that it's just as likely she'll murder us in our sleep when she's a teen. We try to love her and her brother the best we can in the meantime.

Our youngest (biological) child just turned 19. So you understand that when we took these kids in, we were staring at the finish line of our child rearing years. Believe me, raising kids at 45 is a hell of a lot different than it was at 25.

And if I had a chance for a do over, I'd do it again.

What I'm telling you is that there's no Hallmark ending for this. There's no feel-good "this was all worth it" moment. It has, at times, been brutal. It's been a litany of ruined holidays, ungratefulness, getting to know school principals on a first-name basis, proactively calling teachers to let them know you're on their side because your kid can't be believed. My daughter stole a boy's journal in third grade and wrote in there that he wanted to murder her. She was trying to get him kicked out of school because he wouldn't be her boyfriend. When she was 6, I had to stop her trying to stomp a kitten to death because she wanted to see what would happen.

And yet, I'd do it again. Because I had to. I had to give those kids a chance.

I've been miserable at times. I've wanted to throw in the towel and walk away. The strain on our marriage has, at times, been immense. I don't know what would have happened if my wife and I had ever hit the "I can't do this one second longer" stage at the same time.

And even telling you all of this, I can't impress upon you strongly enough what a shit show you'd be walking into. You don't have the context for it. I sure as hell didn't. I thought, "One day, no matter how hard it gets, these kids will look back and be grateful. They'll understand all that we sacrificed for love." But they won't. Because if we did our job, and we don't get murdered, they'll just grow up like every other kid thinking that's what moms and dads do. They'll resent the fuck out of us just like every other teenager. They'll remember all the things we didn't do. All the ways we screwed them up by being cantankerous old tyrannical farts.

On the other hand, people who barely know you will say nice things about the sort of person you are. So, there's that.

If you go down this road and you need any advice or help along the way, feel free to PM me.

Oh, and get your foster license. Don't get talked into kinship fostering. It's a pain in the ass, but damaged kids are super expensive, and that foster license will open some doors. Of course, your local DCS will call you like every week and ask if you can take another kid, so there's a trade off there.

I should also tell you that my wife is a psych nurse and I worked in addictions for several years while I was in college. That gave us a bit of a head start in dealing with heroin kids and understanding how to navigate the mental health system, so you could argue that in some ways, our lives had prepared us for this shit show better than the average person.

It didn't really help.

Don't believe anyone who ever tells you that doing the right thing is easy. Or right.

Do what you need to do. That's all. If you don't need it, don't do it.

[Drake]

My wife wanted me to add: If you don't don't think you're the best chance this kid has got, walk away. If you truly, at your core, don't think you can do this, don't do it.

Seriously. Don't be a martyr. One of the things we learned as foster parents from all the conferences, the trainings, blah, blah, blah, was that single worst thing for most of the kids who end up in the system is the litany of families they go through -- often well-intentioned people who simply weren't equipped to handle the volume of shit thrown at them.

Trying and failing here is worse than doing nothing. Sometimes, the best thing *you* can do for a kid is not to be another link in the chain of abandonment.

[Julio Riddols]

I rarely agree with Jon, but this is one thing where I am pretty much in lock step. If your wife is ok with it, I wouldn't be a part of it. Period.

Cut out the rot before it infects the whole tree.

While what Drake has done above is clearly admirable and something I appreciate as a fellow member of society that someone would give so much in order to even try to fight that fight, there is no way in hell I would feel bad for avoiding this situation completely.

[Izulde]

Frankly, I wouldn't. This kind of situation takes a tremendous toll on all levels for caregivers involved. Plus, your job requires you to travel a lot (obviously), so much of the onus would fall on your wife. That, to me, is a huge factor in this - the amount of time she'd essentially be single parenting it. Y'all have done great work with your kids, but something like this is on a whole other level.

What you might want to do is when the inevitable happens, and the kid ends up in the system, maybe find out where they are and see if you can provide some financial support in terms of getting them necessary items, gifts on birthdays/Christmas, whatever. That way, you're still assisting in the care of the child, but at a level that's doable for your family.

[Butter]

You just have to say no. If she's looking for reasons, your last couple of paragraphs are pretty good. "We don't want to jeopardize our relationship with you, but at the same time she needs to get her life back." Straightforward is always the best path. Always always. Not in a nasty or negative way, but a matter-of-fact way. And you don't need to keep apologizing or make it a half hour string of reasons. No, your reasoning, The End.

If you do that and MIL is willing to throw away that relationship, then it was never as strong as your wife thought.

[CU Tiger]

Wow.
Just know I feel for you guys.
There isnt a right answer here, so i just want to make an observation...

Your thread title is 'Learning how to say no'
Not 'Should I say no'

I feel sub-consciously you know that NO is the right answer for you. If that is the case, make that decision and set it in stone. It's no. Now how to tell her MIL 'No"....that's a much easier battle than Yes or No, Id think.

[nilodor]

Man this is tough. I think it's very hard to say no, but it seems like the right thing for you to do. You are not responsible for other peoples choices and actions and while it seems like you guys are their best bet it's not a fair thing to ask of you. Just because you guys have sorted things out and established yourselves shouldn't mean that you bare a heavier family burden. I would look at establishing clear lines and limits to how much you want to be involved, like 1 weekend per month or whatever that may be and stick to it. Maybe it's no involvement because it will just be too hard on you guys overall?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Lemme just give you a cold as ice take on it:



Your m-in-law is in "poor health". That relationship is going to end sooner than later regardless. Cold as ice to say it but true based on what's in your post.



Then don't.

No matter the cost, the price is not as bad as making yourselves miserable in a situation that has virtually no chance of ending well for anyone in the first place.

I feel a little bit like Sideshow Bob here, but you asked for opinions, so I'm willing to throw mine into the pile.

We've been talking, long before now, about the likelihood that this was going to happen. We knew when the girl got pregnant that we would look like the hail mary pass at the end of the game. There was never going to be a happy ending here.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Can you live with yourself if the child is seriously hurt or dies?

That really seems like the end question. If that doesn't bother you, move on, but I think you already know that's a possibility.

I learned a while ago, in therapies past, that I don't have to take responsibility for the mistakes others make, even if it hurts them and causes pain. It's a hard thing to reconcile. I don't feel like taking on that responsibility as our own is a healthy one. We aren't superheros even though we aspire to be.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

To slightly edit this, can your wife live with herself. Because it's her family really and it will affect her more deeply regardless of the decision y'all make. I think if she really does not want to get involved then you just need to lay it all out to the MIL, with all respect of course, and let her know the line and the reason for it and trust that will be good enough. And if it's not good enough for MIL, then maybe Jon is right.

The Mrs, having survived in a place of abuse understands that he is surrounded by many family members. That he isn't alone, and that at the moment, there isn't any reason to suspect any abuse. Short of that, I think, it's given her enough room to contemplate her own childhood where she wished someone would take her away and where the boy is at right now.

Originally Posted by Drake

My wife and I adopted her niece's kids (i.e., great niece and nephew) last year after fostering them for 3 years. Similar story. Heroin mess, etc.

It is, bar none, the hardest thing we've ever done. The kids were a mess when we got them, and 4 years in, they're still a mess. Our daughter is nine. She's borderline psychotic. She's been in therapy for years. She's on psych meds. She's a danger to herself and others...sometimes. She tries to be better, sometimes succeeds. We have hope that she'll come around. We're also realistic that it's just as likely she'll murder us in our sleep when she's a teen. We try to love her and her brother the best we can in the meantime.

Our youngest (biological) child just turned 19. So you understand that when we took these kids in, we were staring at the finish line of our child rearing years. Believe me, raising kids at 45 is a hell of a lot different than it was at 25.

And if I had a chance for a do over, I'd do it again.

What I'm telling you is that there's no Hallmark ending for this. There's no feel-good "this was all worth it" moment. It has, at times, been brutal. It's been a litany of ruined holidays, ungratefulness, getting to know school principals on a first-name basis, proactively calling teachers to let them know you're on their side because your kid can't be believed. My daughter stole a boy's journal in third grade and wrote in there that he wanted to murder her. She was trying to get him kicked out of school because he wouldn't be her boyfriend. When she was 6, I had to stop her trying to stomp a kitten to death because she wanted to see what would happen.

And yet, I'd do it again. Because I had to. I had to give those kids a chance.

I've been miserable at times. I've wanted to throw in the towel and walk away. The strain on our marriage has, at times, been immense. I don't know what would have happened if my wife and I had ever hit the "I can't do this one second longer" stage at the same time.

And even telling you all of this, I can't impress upon you strongly enough what a shit show you'd be walking into. You don't have the context for it. I sure as hell didn't. I thought, "One day, no matter how hard it gets, these kids will look back and be grateful. They'll understand all that we sacrificed for love." But they won't. Because if we did our job, and we don't get murdered, they'll just grow up like every other kid thinking that's what moms and dads do. They'll resent the fuck out of us just like every other teenager. They'll remember all the things we didn't do. All the ways we screwed them up by being cantankerous old tyrannical farts.

On the other hand, people who barely know you will say nice things about the sort of person you are. So, there's that.

If you go down this road and you need any advice or help along the way, feel free to PM me.

Oh, and get your foster license. Don't get talked into kinship fostering. It's a pain in the ass, but damaged kids are super expensive, and that foster license will open some doors. Of course, your local DCS will call you like every week and ask if you can take another kid, so there's a trade off there.

I should also tell you that my wife is a psych nurse and I worked in addictions for several years while I was in college. That gave us a bit of a head start in dealing with heroin kids and understanding how to navigate the mental health system, so you could argue that in some ways, our lives had prepared us for this shit show better than the average person.

It didn't really help.

Don't believe anyone who ever tells you that doing the right thing is easy. Or right.

Do what you need to do. That's all. If you don't need it, don't do it.

My wife wanted me to add: If you don't don't think you're the best chance this kid has got, walk away. If you truly, at your core, don't think you can do this, don't do it.

Seriously. Don't be a martyr. One of the things we learned as foster parents from all the conferences, the trainings, blah, blah, blah, was that single worst thing for most of the kids who end up in the system is the litany of families they go through -- often well-intentioned people who simply weren't equipped to handle the volume of shit thrown at them.

Trying and failing here is worse than doing nothing. Sometimes, the best thing *you* can do for a kid is not to be another link in the chain of abandonment.

Drake, your story is incredible and I truly respect the life that you've chosen to lead. Your forthright honesty provides an insight that we can only guess at. Specifically, it's your wife's advice that hits home the hardest. We know we 'could' do it, but having raised a special needs child, a gifted child, and a child with epilepsy we know all to well how much work needs to be put into the every day life. It's special meetings and long lines for public help. It's fighting with your kids to get something better than they can see for themselves. I hope that you're wrong. That one day, they do come to you and realize in a moment of clarity that you've been their saviors all along. That you get that recognition and love, even if it's fleeting, or for just a moment. So that you realize that you're giving so great a gift that many of us can't comprehend. I see it. You're selfless gifts are truly valuable and the honesty to say that you need to be 100% committed or don't do it, is genuinely appreciated.

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I rarely agree with Jon, but this is one thing where I am pretty much in lock step. If your wife is ok with it, I wouldn't be a part of it. Period.

Cut out the rot before it infects the whole tree.

While what Drake has done above is clearly admirable and something I appreciate as a fellow member of society that someone would give so much in order to even try to fight that fight, there is no way in hell I would feel bad for avoiding this situation completely.

And I think that's what we need to hear. That it is ok to say no. That it is ok to choose our lives and the lives of our kids and family and put those first here. Personally, I dated a girl who was anorexic. I did a very unhealthy thing and took on that life and responsibility and it was so unhealthy for me. I wanted to be there for her and support her, and the way I chose to do it was to immerse myself in it. It didn't end well for us.

Later, when I met my wife, I wasn't sure I could be a Dad right away, but something inside said that she was the one, and that she was everything that I'd ever need. I knew I was strong enough to take on the role and to treat him as my own. He was after all, just 5 by the time we got married, and he was almost 3 the first time I met him. They deserved so much more in life than they had been given and I knew that I was strong enough to help now.

Paths that I had taken and choices that I had made, as painful as they were, prepared me to take on that bigger role, and I trusted that it was right. I don't feel that way right now. We don't feel like we need to own this particular situation. We will always provide support and act as guides, but we don't believe that this path is one we must take.

Originally Posted by Izulde

Frankly, I wouldn't. This kind of situation takes a tremendous toll on all levels for caregivers involved. Plus, your job requires you to travel a lot (obviously), so much of the onus would fall on your wife. That, to me, is a huge factor in this - the amount of time she'd essentially be single parenting it. Y'all have done great work with your kids, but something like this is on a whole other level.

What you might want to do is when the inevitable happens, and the kid ends up in the system, maybe find out where they are and see if you can provide some financial support in terms of getting them necessary items, gifts on birthdays/Christmas, whatever. That way, you're still assisting in the care of the child, but at a level that's doable for your family.

Thank you. I think we'll always offer ourselves in a way where we can support the best way, even if that isn't with actual, physical support. We listen and talk, and we can offer advice to guide them, and yes, we can keep looking out for his needs too. It's a good option.

Originally Posted by Butter

You just have to say no. If she's looking for reasons, your last couple of paragraphs are pretty good. "We don't want to jeopardize our relationship with you, but at the same time she needs to get her life back." Straightforward is always the best path. Always always. Not in a nasty or negative way, but a matter-of-fact way. And you don't need to keep apologizing or make it a half hour string of reasons. No, your reasoning, The End.

If you do that and MIL is willing to throw away that relationship, then it was never as strong as your wife thought.

Here, I think you're really getting to the nature of the question. How do we go about explaining and how deep that conversation have to go. My wife agrees with you. That it should be short, to the point, and direct. I've always been someone who gets mired in the deep water, who needs to hash it out to the last detail. The short route, is perfectly acceptable here.

They invited us to come up in September for his 2nd birthday party. Presumably, to make it harder for us to say no? Or to simply lay a bit of pressure. The funny thing is that this party lies perfectly between my wife's birthday and our youngest son's birthday. I told the Mrs to ask if we can make it a big 3 way party for all of them, since they don't get to celebrate our families birthday ever. We know how that answer would get played back, but it stands to reason, that it also shows that this isn't necessarily a two way street either. It's a hail mary. As much as my MIL wants to believe that her son is going to get through it and be ok, and be able to do this on his own, she simply can't see the truth of the situation. She wants us to be there for him, for them, but they won't take an interest in ours in order to get there, and she won't see the depths of the issues until it's too late for anyone to do anything about it.

[stevew]

You've worked so hard to get where you are and unless both of you can say 100% degree all in moment there's no point. The child is still young. He's not your grandchild. Someone will adopt him. And hopefully keep him far away from his birth parents.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Wow.
Just know I feel for you guys.
There isnt a right answer here, so i just want to make an observation...

Your thread title is 'Learning how to say no'
Not 'Should I say no'

I feel sub-consciously you know that NO is the right answer for you. If that is the case, make that decision and set it in stone. It's no. Now how to tell her MIL 'No"....that's a much easier battle than Yes or No, Id think.

It was very much a conscious choice. I think no is the right answer. I titled it that way because it I think we all fall into traps where we agree to do something will good intentions and we fail to truly realize the extent of those choices. So it's part learning how to prioritize and the other part is how to explain that no, you don't want any part of helping to look after your nephew.

Originally Posted by nilodor

Man this is tough. I think it's very hard to say no, but it seems like the right thing for you to do. You are not responsible for other peoples choices and actions and while it seems like you guys are their best bet it's not a fair thing to ask of you. Just because you guys have sorted things out and established yourselves shouldn't mean that you bare a heavier family burden. I would look at establishing clear lines and limits to how much you want to be involved, like 1 weekend per month or whatever that may be and stick to it. Maybe it's no involvement because it will just be too hard on you guys overall?

I've been thinking that even opening that door at all is setting us up for them to have some unreasonable expectations. I can hear her saying "you guys are so great with him, and he's so happy with you. He's your only hope." Even that would be too much of an opening.

Originally Posted by stevew

You've worked so hard to get where you are and unless both of you can say 100% degree all in moment there's no point. The child is still young. He's not your grandchild. Someone will adopt him. And hopefully keep him far away from his birth parents.

He is our nephew, but we aren't close to their family. It's a quickly dying vine is what it is. My MIL's grandma is very old, her parents are in good health, she is in poor health and could go anytime. Other family members are dealing with other health problems or raising grandkids because the kids were drug or alcohol addicts. There are at least 3 heroin addicts in the family. We still hope that they just put him up for adoption, but it's my MIL's only grandchild, and it may be the only one she ever has (aside from ours, which again, aren't hers biologically, but supposedly we've treated her like they are, but it's not been reciprocated.)