The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Alright, I'll bite.

I'm very pro choice. Choice is an option, it's not a guarantee. I'm so tired of the idea that abortion is the result of not taking responsibility or having accountability. What a convenient standard. Choice allows women to do just that. They are being responsible for not bringing a child into the world that will end up in a situation where they cannot succeed or thrive for one reason or another.

And same question to you that I raised with RM. What is your stance on late-term abortions, does your pro-choice have limits?

BTW, I am pro-choice but I do think there are limitations.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

And same question to you that I raised with RM. What is your stance on late-term abortions, does your pro-choice have limits?

BTW, I am pro-choice but I do think there are limitations.

There is a line of logic to be laid down, I'm willing to give that. There are only 7 states and DC with no restrictions. Even the least restrictive of the remaining states lists viability as the limit. That's fine. You're looking at something around 28-32 weeks at that point. I also feel like parents should be able to decide if the fetus is tested to have severe developmental challenges that the parents should be able to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy, even if it is late stage. Most screens though are able to determine earlier, but that isn't true in all cases.

[Thomkal]

Melania Trump visiting immigrant families/facilities in Texas today

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

You literally can't make a law at all without imposing morality one way or the other.

A rather obvious truth that somehow gets ignored too often.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Melania Trump visiting immigrant families/facilities in Texas today

She may want to get a new stylist and/or PR adviser.

Jacket she was wearing to board the plane on her visit had the text "I really don't care, do u?".

Not that it matters but just talk about being completely clueless.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

If I was claiming to be passionate about motor vehicle deaths while simultaneously fighting to remove air bags and seat belts from cars, what would you think?

I'd think it was strange and something to have a discussion/debate/what-have-you about. There'd be lots of things to talk about and learn; what ways you thought were best to prevent or limit motor vehicle deaths, why you were against air bags and seat belts, etc. And after it was all talked out I most likely would conclude you were wrong, but not necessarily. Even if I did conclude that, it would be shameful of me to assume you didn't really care about motor vehicle deaths; wrong in your proposals of how to address the problem is as far as it would be responsible to go.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

She may want to get a new stylist and/or PR adviser.

Jacket she was wearing to board the plane on her visit had the text "I really don't care, do u?".

Not that it matters but just talk about being completely clueless.

I thought you were joking and then I said wait let me look ... and you weren't joking!

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

She may want to get a new stylist and/or PR adviser.

Jacket she was wearing to board the plane on her visit had the text "I really don't care, do u?".

Not that it matters but just talk about being completely clueless.

Yeah I saw that just now. I have no explanation as to why she would wear that today.

[mckerney]

Surely people are overreacting, it's not like she was wearing a tan suit.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yeah I saw that just now. I have no explanation as to why she would wear that today.

The official responses are hilarious.

Melania’s spokesperson: “it’s a jacket. There was no hidden message. After today’s important visit to Texas, I hope this isn’t what the media is going to choose to focus on.”

3 hours later...Trump says, “it refers to the fake news media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are and she truly no longer cares”.

Lol yea that’s definitely what she meant...

[TCY Junkie]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

3 hours later...Trump says, “it refers to the fake news media. Melania has learned how dishonest they are and she truly no longer cares”.

.

First thought was the heck she talking about, then figured it was about media. I was about 20 percent sure I was right though, so random.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yeah I saw that just now. I have no explanation as to why she would wear that today.

She married Trump, lets not act like she has the best judgement.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Lathum

She married Trump, lets not act like she has the best judgement.

Lathum!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Lathum!

hey there

[Thomkal]

Nice to "see" you again

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Nice to "see" you again

Thanks. Good to be back. I guess.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

There is a line of logic to be laid down, I'm willing to give that. There are only 7 states and DC with no restrictions. Even the least restrictive of the remaining states lists viability as the limit. That's fine. You're looking at something around 28-32 weeks at that point. I also feel like parents should be able to decide if the fetus is tested to have severe developmental challenges that the parents should be able to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy, even if it is late stage. Most screens though are able to determine earlier, but that isn't true in all cases.

I do agree with you in concept. The number of weeks and the definition of "severe developmental challenges" may differ.

My wife teaches special education. If your definition of severe developmental challenges includes autism, I will respectfully disagree.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do agree with you in concept. The number of weeks and the definition of "severe developmental challenges" may differ.

My wife teaches special education. If your definition of severe developmental challenges includes autism, I will respectfully disagree.

That wouldn't be something that can be diagnosed prenatally. My oldest is on the spectrum and my wife also taught special ed. I'm thinking severe brain deformity, or some sort of severe musculoskelatal or organ issues that require near round the clock care.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

My wife teaches special education. If your definition of severe developmental challenges includes autism, I will respectfully disagree.

I think its unfair to say 'autism' without indicating where on the spectrum you think 'severe developmental challenges' is set - my sons are on the autistic spectrum, one in the same way most programmers are (ie. very logical and not at very emotionally intuitive), the other more seriously autistic but I'm confident he'll be able to function independently within society long term with a little assistance.

I however have friends who have children on the autistic spectrum who are largely unable to communicate or feed themselves, the spectrum is huge and the difference is night and day between the ends of it imho.

PS - I also expect myself to be on the spectrum to a lesser extent to my sons, but definitely there (looking at my youth and how I learn to interact with people etc.).

[Kodos]

My son is also on the spectrum, although he is on the milder side of it. In our efforts to help him, we have met many children who have things much worse than he does. I do have worries about whether he'll ever be able to be fully independent from us.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

My son is also on the spectrum, although he is on the milder side of it. In our efforts to help him, we have met many children who have things much worse than he does. I do have worries about whether he'll ever be able to be fully independent from us.

There is always someone who has it so much worse than you do. Our youngest has to go to the Children's hospital for an MRI every year for his epilepsy and just knowing what all the other families there are going through just makes me sad.



We're in the same boat. My son is 23 now, and we gave him a goal of the end of August 2018, to try and get his things in order and try and move out to try independence. That was a full year notice. He has people who work with him, but he is still in charge of his progress. He is working, but so far hasn't changed to a job that would even allow him to make enough to be on his own.



Nothing will happen if he misses the deadline, except that his mom and I will just resign ourselves to the fact that in one way or another, he will always need us reasonably close by, and more so, if we ever leave Kentucky (where his services are).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

What is your stance on late-term abortions? Does your support extend past the point of "viability" whenever that is?

I'm against it with the exception of health reasons. I don't know where that point of viability is.

I'd rather we just educate people and give them access to birth control so that we don't have to make those decisions.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Nothing will happen if he misses the deadline, except that his mom and I will just resign ourselves to the fact that in one way or another, he will always need us reasonably close by, and more so, if we ever leave Kentucky (where his services are).

One of the things my friends have done is to transition their child to a home environment rather than living with them - their reasoning made a lot of sense to me, although it was really hard for them to do as they felt selfish doing so.

Their reasoning is simply that there is a real chance at some point in the next 15-20 years (as they age) that they might not be able to look after the child at home due to their own health issues, its better that the child transition to the environment now while they can be supportive and help rather than later when heaven forbid they might not be about to do so and the change would be far harder if it involved only 'strangers'.

(just mentioning it because its something few people think about with 'adult' autistic kids - heck knows when I was younger I didn't)

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I think its unfair to say 'autism' without indicating where on the spectrum you think 'severe developmental challenges' is set ...

I however have friends who have children on the autistic spectrum who are largely unable to communicate or feed themselves, the spectrum is huge and the difference is night and day between the ends of it imho.

I agree. I was thinking about the kids in my wife's classes who are definitely challenged, many unlikely to live on their own etc. but would not reach my criteria for late-term.

My wife comes home often frustrated, tells stories, but then proudly shows pictures of "her" kids. She has been doing this for years (and really doesn't need to work) so I know this is fulfilling to her.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd rather we just educate people and give them access to birth control so that we don't have to make those decisions.

I agree with this. The next question is, ok we have educated and have free birth control available. People know better and choose not to use the resources available. Now they want a bail out. Of course this is a person who make poor decisions anyway (in this example) and are now at XX weeks. What now?

[Galaril]

Looks like the Trump tariffs won't benefit us as promised. I am shocked!

President Trump Struck the First Blow on Trade. The World Is Starting to Hit Back

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/week-...161250141.html

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I agree with this. The next question is, ok we have educated and have free birth control available. People know better and choose not to use the resources available. Now they want a bail out. Of course this is a person who make poor decisions anyway (in this example) and are now at XX weeks. What now?

I don't know. I don't think you'll ever be able to eliminate it. My goal is to just reduce the number of them.

Which is working. As access and advancements in contraceptives has improved, unwanted pregnancies have gone down a lot. This despite the Pro-Life movement fighting it. Imagine if they'd come on board and put their efforts into reducing abortions.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Looks like the Trump tariffs won't benefit us as promised. I am shocked!

President Trump Struck the First Blow on Trade. The World Is Starting to Hit Back

Wall Street's outlook is darkening

It'll be interesting to see what happens when this touches the automobile industry. So many jobs in swing states at risk.

Interesting to see if there will be pushback from his party. Seen some talk but no action. Tariffs are to the left of even Bernie Sanders so it's weird to see the Republican Party backing them.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Looks like the Trump tariffs won't benefit us as promised. I am shocked!

President Trump Struck the First Blow on Trade. The World Is Starting to Hit Back

Wall Street's outlook is darkening

Then there's soybean farmers, one of which the tariffs have already cost $250,000. It may seem like a lot, but apparently not enough to make then change their support for Trump.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/22/polit...ion/index.html

And a nail factory that has seen orders drop by 50%, let go 15% of their work force and may have to layoff another 200 soon.

https://www.semissourian.com/story/2532801.html

Who knew trade wars were so easy to win?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know. I don't think you'll ever be able to eliminate it. My goal is to just reduce the number of them.

Which is working. As access and advancements in contraceptives has improved, unwanted pregnancies have gone down a lot. This despite the Pro-Life movement fighting it. Imagine if they'd come on board and put their efforts into reducing abortions.

Agreed.
FWIW my stance is that I am morally opposed to all abortions, for any reason. However, I do not feel it is the governments place to regulate morality.



So in short I think abortion is wrong and I will permanently shape my opinion of a person if they make that choice. However I fully believe it should be legal and a choice available to make.


Interestingly its the same stance I have on drugs.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Who knew trade wars were so easy to win?

I'm not worried. Winning is so easy. It's easy to make deals where you win all the time. That's why he's the boss. He wins and deals and makes it look so easy. I'm still not sick of all the winning yet. It's awesome.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It'll be interesting to see what happens when this touches the automobile industry. So many jobs in swing states at risk.

Interesting to see if there will be pushback from his party.

Nah, the propaganda of blaming Obama for anything that isn't right and taking credit for everything that is, regardless of policy, will continue to work. Its staggering how well it works at this point.

[NobodyHere]

Watch out Trump! Tom Arnold is coming after you!

Tom Arnold Says He's 'Taking Trump Down' With Michael Cohen's Help | HuffPost

[cuervo72]

h/t 538:

DeVos Has Scuttled More Than 1, 200 Civil Rights Probes… — ProPublica

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Agreed.
FWIW my stance is that I am morally opposed to all abortions, for any reason. However, I do not feel it is the governments place to regulate morality.



So in short I think abortion is wrong and I will permanently shape my opinion of a person if they make that choice. However I fully believe it should be legal and a choice available to make.


Interestingly its the same stance I have on drugs.

"To each their own" really shouldn't be all that controversial.

That it is at all is because of folks who have similar views of morality to your own, but fear that if their morality isn't imposed universally, that their belief system will fall apart.

Then we wind up with Prohibition, the War on Drugs, and a hundred years of mess to clean up because of people who tried a one-size-fits-all approach to government and morality.

I'm in the same boat. I would never choose to use drugs myself, and I drink alcohol at all about once a year. But that's my choice for me, and to the extent I support restricting the access of others, it's to the extent that such protection impacts public safety. Banning beer sales outright? No. Reasonable restrictions to prevent past offenders from continuing to drive under the influence and put others at risk? Yes.

Abortion? Not a fan. OTOH, I also understand that trying to ban abortion will be about as successful as Prohibition was - it won't eliminate it, merely drive it underground. Wanna reduce abortion rates? Comprehensive sex education (and I'm not talking about abstinence-only), and STOP FUCKING BLAMING POOR PEOPLE FOR BEING POOR is how you deal with that. Quit trying to undermine the social safety net and expand it instead. Do something serious about income disparity, parental leave, and for those near the poverty line, food and housing security. Put pregnant women in a position where the economics of whether to have a child aren't at the front of that decision, and I guarantee you abortion rates will drop. There will always be those who seek abortion because of incest, rape, or, less frequently, because of medical necessity.

But if women aren't put in a position where they have to consider whether they can even afford to raise the child, they will be more likely to have children in the first place, and even to have multiple children. I know plenty of women in their 20s who would love to have children, but have IUDs installed because having even one child would be to flirt with economic disaster.

That isn't casual birth control. That's a hand forced by the same political ideology that wants to ban abortion also supporting policies that undermine the middle class and incentivize the poorest to choose abortion over life. It's a pro-fetus political ideology, not a pro-life ideology. If they were remotely intellectually consistent, they would admit that.

[kingfc22]

Of course he autographed the photos of loved ones lost to violence.

There’s not an absurd idea that can be presented where you can honestly say it has 0% of chance occurring with this moron.

[Edward64]

Another Sunday speaking head that I enjoyed watching, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not.

Unfortunately, I think his time is past and the party now belongs to Trump.

George Will Leaves Republican Party Over Donald Trump | Fortune

George Will, a longtime political commentator and staunch defender of the conservative movement, chided the Republican Party Friday, citing the party’s support for Donald Trump in the upcoming 2020 presidential election.

In a speech at a luncheon held by the Federalist Society, Will urged other conservatives not to support Trump as the GOP nominee. “This is not my party,” Will said the speech, noting that while it’s a little too late to find a replacement for him on the ticket, conservatives can “grit their teeth for four years” after making sure that Trump loses.

[PilotMan]

What are the chances that Melania did the whole jacket thing knowing the blow back it would cause donald? I mean, she's not in open revolt, but she's clearly not madly in love or in a good marriage with him. It's a subtle dig and one that can be played off, but the optics of the first lady purposely wearing a jacket like that, in that situation where she's going to show concern is dubious. The other possibilities are that she's simply clueless, or her staff is, and I just don't see either of those being that probable. In fact, my example, might just be the easiest explanation, which in my mind, makes it also the most likely. She is showing up as herself, talking to people, and being en envoy, and by wearing the jacket before and after away from the event brackets the overall point that she is still representing her husband. I clearly want to believe this is the case more than stupidity on her part anyway.

[AlexB]

13.06.2018 - Trump tweets after the NK summit:
“There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea” and “sleep well tonight!”

23.06.2018 - Trump renewed sanctions on North Korea, citing an "extraordinary threat"

[Thomkal]

So Pence here today at Coastal Carolina for a rally with McMaster, Trump here Monday in Columbia. Ugh. Meanwhile the woman who just beat Sanford in the Republican primary gets seriously hurt (and a friend) when a car crosses the road and hits her head on as she was on her way to a rally in Hilton Head. She survived but pretty badly hurt, will need multiple surgeries, and about 2 weeks in the hospital. The guy that hit her died.

[NobodyHere]

I can imagine a lot of people putting on their tin foil hats after that car accident.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I can imagine a lot of people putting on their tin foil hats after that car accident.

Yeah she's trending on Twitter all day, and I stopped reading them when the conspiracies started.



Meanwhile Sarah Sanders was asked to leave a restaurant (?) in Lexington, VA-the Red Hen, by the owner because she worked for Trump, and she made sure to Tweet about it. Also protestors found Sec. Nilsen's home and protested outside replaying the children crying from being separated at the border over and over again.

[Thomkal]

Conway now trending on twitter and not just because of Pence's visit.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yeah she's trending on Twitter all day, and I stopped reading them when the conspiracies started.



Meanwhile Sarah Sanders was asked to leave a restaurant (?) in Lexington, VA-the Red Hen, by the owner because she worked for Trump, and she made sure to Tweet about it. Also protestors found Sec. Nilsen's home and protested outside replaying the children crying from being separated at the border over and over again.

What happened to Republicans supporting the freedom of religion of business owners.

Psalm 101:7
He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Allowing get to eat there would have been a violation of the owner's strongly held religious views.

[Thomkal]

yeah karma is a bitch

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Meanwhile Sarah Sanders was asked to leave a restaurant (?) in Lexington, VA-the Red Hen, by the owner because she worked for Trump, and she made sure to Tweet about it. Also protestors found Sec. Nilsen's home and protested outside replaying the children crying from being separated at the border over and over again.

I'm good with Sanders being kicked out. The owner should know there will be consequences and he/she may lose or gain business over it.

On Nilsen's home, didn't see the article but I would be pissed with the noise disturbance. I think peaceful demonstration is fair game but playing children crying is over the top. Wonder how the cops are handling the neighbors' complaints.

FWIW, I support stopping illegal immigration and am for the wall. But separating kids from parents is immoral, stupid policy and certainly doesn't help the cause, find an alternative.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm good with Sanders being kicked out. The owner should know there will be consequences and he/she may lose or gain business over it.

I disagree with the business owner entirely. I'm not a fan of a being in a country where I can be refused to be seated based on my political beliefs or party affiliation. She might as well put out a sign saying "We can refuse to serve anyone".

FWIW, I support stopping illegal immigration and am for the wall. But separating kids from parents is immoral, stupid policy and certainly doesn't help the cause, find an alternative.

What is the solution? If you want to make illegal immigration ummm illegal then don't you have to arrest or otherwise punish those who immigrate illegally? Should family units have an exemption? I know Obama had 'catch and release' and hope the immigrants show up to court. But then what do you do to punish the 30 odd percent (according to politifact) that don't show up to their court dates?

I believe we can hire more judges and expedite court cases. Perhaps we can streamline the system somehow. What do other countries do?

If you commit a felony in this country you are likely going to jail and separated from your kids, even before going to trial. Separation is part of doing time. This goes for immigrant and American citizens alike.

[AlexB]

I agree, you can’t refuse to serve someone a standard menu for any reason if it is available to others.

However I do side with a couple of bakers that have made the news over the last couple of years: they should not be forced to take on a contract to ice a cake with a message that goes against their beliefs.

In my mind - can’t refuse to bake the cake; can refuse to message it.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by mckerney

What happened to Republicans supporting the freedom of religion of business owners.

I'm not a Republican, but I fully support the restaurant's right to do whatever they want. They should be able to treat customers however they choose, and have their customer base react accordingly(as they are, in both directions). Freedom is messy sometimes. Still beats the heck out of the alternative.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I disagree with the business owner entirely. I'm not a fan of a being in a country where I can be refused to be seated based on my political beliefs or party affiliation. She might as well put out a sign saying "We can refuse to serve anyone".

I actually agree with you, she shouldn't have been blamed. I don't think she really "supports" it but finds ways to rationalize the process to survive the best she can.

I don't view this as political or party affiliation. I do view this on moral ground. In my mind, there are not many crimes as heinous as purposely separating a child from parent(s) without good cause.

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What is the solution? If you want to make illegal immigration ummm illegal then don't you have to arrest or otherwise punish those who immigrate illegally? Should family units have an exemption? I know Obama had 'catch and release' and hope the immigrants show up to court. But then what do you do to punish the 30 odd percent (according to politifact) that don't show up to their court dates?

I do support stopping illegal immigration and do not support 'catch and release'. Illegal immigration needs to be dealt with holistically (e.g. the demand side as well as the supply, laws, additional guest workers etc.) but specific to this situation ...

If you have to hold the applicant/illegal for breaking a law, find a way to keep the child with them.

Maybe they did or maybe they didn't - did they tell the parents they were holding that if they voluntarily left the country, they would be reunited with their child? Or did we keep them in limbo land ... I don't know but would not surprise me if it was the latter.

Change the laws on requesting for asylum (e.g. don't allow it on the mexican border anymore) so we don't have to deal with the busloads of them showing up on our border after weeks of news media.

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

If you commit a felony in this country you are likely going to jail and separated from your kids, even before going to trial. Separation is part of doing time. This goes for immigrant and American citizens alike.

I don't see this as a valid analogy. If a US citizen commits a felony and is tossed in a jail, does the underage children get tossed into a holding camps/cell as well or do they go with other family or social/foster support?

It's not the act of holding the illegals that I have a problem with. Its the separation of the underage children and tossing them into holding camps for long periods of time.

Keep them with the parents and fix the other processes/laws to prevent illegals from coming or staying with some holistic immigration reform program.