Integrity of Officials

[tarcone]

I dont know how to start this thread, so I will ramble. And I will ramble because I am upset and because I dont know how to start this thread.

My daughter is a senior basketbal player and the best player on the team. She is 6'2" averages a double double and blocks around 3 shots a game.

When we go away to our conference games, I know we will be homered. I get it. But this season has been brutal And maybe its because my daughter is the best player on the team and everyone knows it. She faces double teams and tonight a box and 1.

My daughter is smart. She has played basketball for 12 years including high level AAU. She is a good player. And the only good player on our team. I get other teams focusing on her. But at the away conference games, the refs are focusing on her as well.

Tonight she got 3 fouls in the first 6 minutes of the game. Before the quater was over our team had 9 fouls to the home teams 1. 2 of my daughters fouls were phantom. And the girl guarding her was arm barring her and holding her and nothing was called.

I officiate basketball and do at a high level. I cannot understand the lack of integrity of these refs. What the hell?

I now understand why refs get attacked.

It is so bad I think Im retiring from reffing. I do not want to be associated with these ass wipes that favor a home team.

Sorry sort of a rant and sort of a question.

Why are refs that bad?

This has almost ruined my daughters season. And makes the game no fun to watch. It is sickening.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why are refs that bad?

I watched a HS game with poor officiating last week, and kind of thought about this very thing. 3 man crew, girls basketball state tournament game. Home team vs (my old alma mater) an opponent from a couple hours to the west.

The oldest member of the crew - I'd guess him being close to 60 - was also the most capable, seemed even-handed on his calls and made relatively few calls all night (maybe because he couldn't get a whistle in edgewise?)

The middling member of the crew was probably 50'ish, had a few headscratcher calls but also made what could be called a few makeup calls to try to balance the third member (who I'm getting to). He didn't appear malicious in his errors, made some in both directions, he simply wasn't great at his job but wasn't horribly imbalanced either.

Aaaaaaaand then there was the star of the show, who turned in one of the worst performances I've seen in many many years. He reffed like he was running for office in the home team jurisdiction. Ghost fouls on one end, no calls on literally pancake blocks on the other. Phantom traveling calls on one end, watching players fall and slide 6-8 feet with the ball on their stomach and no traveling on the other end. It wasn't just bad, it was downright bewildering, a model case of the need for state monitoring of game film to determine suitability for future assignments. He wasn't even Saturday morning 8-year-old rec league caliber. But he was smart enough to have his impact be primarily on violations rather than fouls, so the scorebook didn't give a huge red flag.

You couldn't be THAT bad without a) trying, b) being drunk, c) being a once a lifetime level of incompetent. C seems unlikely, the odds of running into that person at random are awfully high, and he didn't appear to stumble or slur his speech, so that leaves A as the most likely.

Why? Who knows. Paid? Personal vendetta? Personal connection? Your guess is as good as mine.

But I'll tell you another reason the teams got stuck with this clown: numbers.

It was opening round action, we have 8 classifications (counting the public/private split of the smallest class), with boys & girls playing on the same days. In the round of 64 that's 256 games for each gender, so 512 games playing over 2 days time across the entire width and breadth of the state. With 3 person crews, that's 1536 slots and with most of the sites hosting only one game a night (you get a handful of overlapping boys & girls teams both hosting the same opponent & playing a doubleheader but not that many this year). Less leeway for scheduling this year too, with some paranoia after nearly half the state's region tournaments were delayed by weather/road conditions.

We needed 1,536 officials (with some duplicates working twice of course) -- not counting another hundred or so needed for the small private/christian assocation that was running simultaneously -- and that far exceeds the supply of remotely capable officials in the state. In short, incompetent buffoons like that assclown were out there cause pretty much every breathing body with a whistle was pressed into service to fill the gap.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And after that post, you might wonder (if you think about it a minute) ... how could it be that bad considering that by the opening round of the state tournament over half the teams in the state have been weeded out already? Surely the scheduling must be brutal when multipled across the normal Tues/Fri/Sat regular season.

Yes, you'd be right.

And an average weeknight game in the state with two middling programs is pretty much unwatchable due to the lack of sentient officiating. You're more likely to get TWO assclowns a night for those, and you have to hope that they're working against each other for balance rather than both being lopsided in one direction or the other.

[molson]

Can't imagine why there's a shortage of officials....

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Can't imagine why there's a shortage of officials....

That isn't exactly the issue though, there are almost certainly more officials for some sports in Georgia than ever. The explosion in the number of schools- and therefore games - creates the need for a LOT more officials than before.

Let me use the state football playoffs as an example (cause it's easier for me to pull up numbers & dates and such)

In the opening round of the state playoffs in 2019 the 7-man crews required for 136 games over 7+ classes meant the need for 952 certified officials.

In the opening round in 1995 then 6-man crews (IIRC, however the legal minimum in the 1995-96 GHSA Constitution was merely 4) required for 32 games over 4 classes meant the need for 192 certified officials.

Yes, in 25 years the numbers of titles contested grew from 4 to 8 AND the number of teams in the opening round for each classification grew from 16 to 32 (24 each in the case of split A-Private + A-Public). And with that came a more than 4x increase in the number of officials needed for the opening round of the state playoffs.

[molson]

If more are needed, and it's a less desirable job because of harassment and threats, it makes sense that the available pool would be less skilled.

I think the refs should quit and the job be left exclusively to parents. Lock the sewage in the with the cesspool of youth sports. Or, allow the refs to scream at the kids when they make mistakes. Let everybody act animals, not just the parents.

Edit: My boss just quit umpiring. They begged for him to come back this year but he's just done. The stories he has... And that I read about and see, like this one....they should all walk off.

Little League Umpire Walks Off Field After Getting Heckled By Parents - YouTube

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

If more are needed, and it's a less desirable job because of harassment and threats, it makes sense that the available pool would be less skilled.

I think the refs should quit and the job be left exclusively to parents. Lock the sewage in the with the cesspool of youth sports. Or, allow the refs to scream at the kids when they make mistakes. Let everybody act animals, not just the parents.

It's a ton of things, far beyond what you over simplify. Lifestyle & societal changes are tough to ignore.

Fewer 9-5 jobs today than 20 years ago, certainly fewer than 30, 40, 50 years ago. That means less predictable schedules, fewer people able to make that commitment to being somewhere typically 2 hours away on a Friday night for 11 straight weeks or more. (whether increased self-employment & flexible schedules offsets this is a fair question IMO however)

It seems fair to assume that the growth of other sports - soccer most notably here - has split the talent pool. There's only so many people willing to be in the physical condition to officiate, only so many to go 'round, and not THAT many with multiple sport certifications that I'm aware of.

Increasingly mobile society, less time in one spot than ever before. That instability makes it tougher to build crews with cohesion. Go back to 1984 (my senior year of HS for picking a date) and it was rare to see officials that you didn't know - and hadn't known for years - show up in your building. Now it might be rarer to see one for four straight seasons.

Just as average attendance is generally down with all these factors in play, it's not unrealistic to believe there's a general decline in interest in HS football / basketball / pick-a-sport. Less interest in general, certainly seems to suggest fewer people interested in officiating.

As for the environment, I can only say this. From about 1980 to 1984 I saw at least two incidents involving people wielding knives (with very bad intentions) heading straight for officials (both were waylaid by police). Add a couple years farther back than that and I know of another incident where someone was waylaid while retrieving a gun for the same purpose. And the verbal environment now is considerably more genteel than it was in those days.

Bad officials have always been a part of sports, I still remember a few of the more notable and consistent ones from almost forty years ago. But they were the exception then, to the point that they stood out when you had the misfortune of drawing them. Today? It's virtually an every event occurrence. What they get isn't a fraction of what they frequently deserve afaic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As for the environment, I can only say this. From about 1980 to 1984 I saw at least two incidents involving people wielding knives (with very bad intentions) heading straight for officials (both were waylaid by police). Add a couple years farther back than that and I know of another incident where someone was waylaid while retrieving a gun for the same purpose. And the verbal environment now is considerably more genteel than it was in those days.

I guess that's good that you perceive there's less knife play these days. But the whole concept of anger towards refs is completely stupid to me to begin with. It's youth sports. A kids drops a pass and we understand they're not perfect. A ref (often a kid) misses a call from a biased parent's perspective and they deserve to the be the victim of violence, harassment, or just personal insults online afterwards. I don't get it.

If the parents can make 100% of the calls right from the bleachers instead of the 97% or whatever that sparks violent rage from parents from the current refs, then let the parents ref. Why isn't that an outcome everyone can get behind? If your kid is in a league, you have to ref X number of games not involving your kid. Then you don't have any problem with the sub-human refs who don't deserve to be there, right? All the calls will be perfect from then on.

Tarcone "understands" why people want to attack refs for making mistakes. I think that sums up the problem. Do we understand if people want to attack the kids for making mistakes during the game? The parents fuck all this up. They shrink the ref pool, and the people willing to be yelled at by asshole parents are just not going to be as good as a theoretical pool of people who are treated with regular human respect.

I love hearing about ref shortages. It may not be an issue in Georgia, but it is elsewhere. The total number of referees has dropped by thousands in some states, where it's not just an issue of more games being played. This will trickle up to the pros as well eventually. The impact of youth sports parents will be felt in the NFL and MLB before long, if it hasn't already. I support it. Nobody should do this job.

Referee shortages continue to hamper K12 sports

Referee shortage: It’s a big problem for high school and youth sports that is getting worse

https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota...asketball-game

Sideline harassment causes high school referees to quit, creating referee shortage

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

It's youth sports.

For a not insignificant number of those playing, it's the most important thing they'll ever be part of in their lives. Not to mention the number of livelihoods that rest on those outcomes.

A ref (often a kid)

Not at the high school level, at least not here. I can't recall EVER seeing one under 25, the youngest are probably closer to 30, with an average age is probably in the 35-45 range if not higher.

You won't see "a kid" officiating anything here to my knowledge above maybe the middle school level. Never seen them in any varsity sport here, period. Even our chain crews for varsity football are required to be at least 18 years of age and a high school graduate, that's actually in the governing body by-laws, black letter.

If the parents can make 100% of the calls right instead of the 97% or whatever that sparks violent rage from parents, then let them ref.

That's the thing, a blown call here and there happens. The reaction is often intense but it's also more ... fleeting. The genuine anger, the kind that lasts, is reserved for those who make an evening (or a career) of them, to the point that it appears premeditated and systemic.

When other officials - working the same game, on the same crew - acknowledge it on a regular enough basis that it no longer surprises me to hear/see, you're talking about an entirely different tier of assclowns.

(I've seen that at least once a week in the past several football seasons, most commonly in cases where the crew is a thrown-together deal,

[molson]

Then why don't they just use better refs?

(I know the obvious logical answer to that, but I'm curious what yours is)

Why not just hire refs that get all the calls right, like all the parents can do from the stands? (Or use my idea that the parents can do it).

If there's thousands of fewer people willing to do the job because of the parents, the overall talent pool will be worse. That's not debatable. Any problem with the talent pool is the parents' fault, 100%. They're just in complete denial about that. If not, where exactly are of these great youth sports refs who can't break into the "business"? The current refs not being acceptable necessarily implies that there's refs out there that are. What's stopping them from being refs besides harassment, having better things to do, and having dignity?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Then why don't they just use better refs?

(I know the obvious logical answer to that, but I'm curious what yours is)

Why not just hire refs that get all the calls right, like all the parents can do from the stands?

Goes back to the numbers here as much as anything ( a drumbeat I've steadily pounded for a number of years now). We have more schools, and therefore games, than we can accommodate with competent officiating.

In football a big part of the solution is still getting resistance and will probably have to be mandated by the governing body eventually: move games from the traditional Friday night to a Thurs/Fri/Sat schedule, allowing the better officials to work more games. Most people are lukewarm about that concept UNTIL it's their ox getting gored with a move, then the resistance usually kicks in.

Honestly, after what I've seen in the past 5-6 years in basketball, I'm not sure there IS a solution outside of reducing the number of games themselves (indeed, in the past couple of years I've suggested that reducing from a 10 game football season to a 9 game regular season as part of the relief there too but that goes over about as well as a blown call on the final play of a title game).

It makes football look rosy by comparison, and that's with me seeing primarily state tournament games (where in theory, you're getting the upper half of the officiating pool). I'd likely be in the morgue (via heart attack or stroke), prison, or awaiting trial if I still tried to watch 20-25 regular season doubleheaders a year like I used to.

I believe another part of improvement would be for the governing body to fund additional supervisors of officials, above and beyond the individual officials associations. The amount of oversight is variable at best, and accountability is limited, that needs to be addressed.

The use of replay review is gaining momentum at least at the championship level (after a notoriously blown call in a football title game where more than ample tech was available for it to be used) I believe it will eventually become commonplace, if not mandated in phases over time. The extreme variance in the capabilities by venue makes that one a tough nut to crack I won't deny, but with the majority of home fields in Georgia now featuring artificial turf (as of last season), the cost of at least rudimentary mandatory camera coverage shouldn't be THAT out of reach frankly.

There isn't one magic answer, but there are a number of steps that could be taken to move the needle back in the right direction at least.

On the downside of all those ideas? The governing body here makes Congress look capable and unbiased by comparison, so anything that makes even the slightest bit of sense coming from them is nothing short of a miracle so I won't be holding my breath. There's a better chance that they'll fiddle while Rome blazes and participation and support steadily dwindle.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Any problem with the talent pool is the parents' fault, 100%.

At the high school level here, parents are less than half the most vocal part of many fanbases. The math alone on most Friday nights (or Tuesdays for that matter) prohibits that. 100-110 players on even the very largest of large teams, 200 or so parents out of a few thousand people in the stands, and half them are too nervous to be all that vocal about much of anything.

On the much smaller scale, where my past decade or so has been spent, it's much the same. I can almost name-by-name the most knowledgeable, the most realistic, the most rabid, the loudest, the quietest, of our entire fanbase. And less than half those names would have anyone active on the team, maybe 1/3rd at most. Some are alums, some are former parents, some are simply fans of the sport, some are parents of non-athletes. And I'm among the most adept needlers on any given Friday night and mine didn't even play a sport that HAD officials.

Maybe you're not separating adequately between the high school level (which was the o.p. subject) and "youth sports", ... or maybe you're just so far in the tank with the inept buffoons that make up too much of the existing talent pool that there's no legitimate discussion to be had with you on the subject. Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want people to kiss the ass of even the most aggregious oxygen wasters on the planet.

[Butter]

JiMGa and tarcone, you guys are a little amusing here.

Have to side with molson. You talk about how more and more refs are shit and how terrible they are and then can't seem to understand why the talent pool is shrinking.

Have you just completely turned off your self-awareness monitors, or are you being willfully ignorant?

[tarcone]

I officiate varsity basketball myself.

Everyone in our conference knows they will get homered in most of our conference gyms. But last night was especially brutal. One of the refs was having conversations with the home coach. Our coach had to call a TO to ask the ref to stop talking to the home coach.

The refs were in their 60s and older.

I get why their is a shortage, I officiate. But I also watch my daughter get frustrated and pissed because the refs are picking on her. She is the only player on her team and the opposition double teams her. When you throw in refs blatantly calling nothing on the other team and phantom fouls on her, I get why people beat up refs.

Their is a severe lack of officials in our state, so we have guys in their 70s that cant get up and down the court.

I understand what I saw. I get it. But last night was horrible.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I officiate varsity basketball myself.

Everyone in our conference knows they will get homered in most of our conference gyms. But last night was especially brutal. One of the refs was having conversations with the home coach. Our coach had to call a TO to ask the ref to stop talking to the home coach.

The refs were in their 60s and older.

I get why their is a shortage, I officiate. But I also watch my daughter get frustrated and pissed because the refs are picking on her. She is the only player on her team and the opposition double teams her. When you throw in refs blatantly calling nothing on the other team and phantom fouls on her, I get why people beat up refs.

Their is a severe lack of officials in our state, so we have guys in their 70s that cant get up and down the court.

I understand what I saw. I get it. But last night was horrible.

That's fair, man. Sorry your daughter is going through that.

[PilotMan]

Youth sports is just too big imo (not to take anything away from your situation tarcone). Too many sports, too many teams, too many everything. Kids will play, they don't need official leagues and traveling teams to play. I really don't have any sympathy for the leagues if they can't get enough refs. Pay the refs better, shrink the team budgets, make it more manageable.



And yes, there are plenty of times where the refs suck. With legalized gambling now, we're doomed to accept future scandals where players and/or refs are cheating one way or another.

[molson]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I get why people beat up refs.

How would you feel if someone attacked your daughter because she made a mistake during a game? Would you understand it at least?

Assuming that she's getting lots of bad calls against her - and you're biased source on that - it's the parents fault. If you think it's the refs fault, and that there's better refs out there, just use them. Problem solved. If there's no one else available, that's on the parents.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

inept buffoons that make up too much of the existing talent pool that there's no legitimate discussion to be had with you on the subject. Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want people to kiss the ass of even the most aggregious oxygen wasters on the planet.

Can't imagine why there's a ref shortage....

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by molson

How would you feel if someone attacked your daughter because she made a mistake during a game? Would you understand it at least?

Assuming that she's getting lots of bad calls against her - and you're biased source on that - it's the parents fault. If you think it's the refs fault, and that there's better refs out there, just use them. Problem solved.

At a game a couple weeks ago, we were playing a small school in our conference. My daughter scored 20 in the 1st half. She was dominating. Because it was a small gym we ended up sitting behind the visiting team bench. The asst. coach yelled at his players to rough my daughter up. Was I happy? No.

But she was just dominating. She wasn’t cheating. And the refs were terrible that night as well. Daughter got 3 phantom fouls. They fouled her out with a minute left and us up by 5. We lost that game.

EDIT: the 5th foul she was 3 feet from a girl wh fell going after a loose ball.

[BYU 14]

I know in Arizona the pool and quality has thinned considerably over the last few years at the HS level, at least in football. I know a couple of crews that do HS games Monday through Friday and used to do Pop Warner games on Saturdays but don't anymore because the parental behavior is abhorrent. Add to that the fact that in the last 10-15 years it has gone from just Pop Warner to 4 major youth leagues and one that plays Football year round (which is the dumbest thing you could do to your kid BTW) So less officials to do more which leads to crews that have little experience, inadequate training and high turnover because of how idiotic some parents and coaches are.

As mentioned above this applies to HS too and I can tell you without a doubt the dropoff in quality from top to bottom is very noticeable. In my 15 years at Westview we got great crews because we were one of the premier programs on the west side of Phoenix. 12 straight playoff appearances, 7 region titles 2 state championship appearances. Rarely an issue with a crew.

My last 3 years have been at an inner city school (Carl Hayden) that has had exactly 4 winning seasons and just a single playoff appearance in its 63 year history and lost 66 straight games at one point between 2002 and 2009. Incidentally, I enjoy coaching there as much as any place I have coached in 30+ years of doing this, great kids that were just dealt a tough hand in life and no football culture in that area, but I digress.

Do you think we see the same quality of crews we got at Westview? Not even close and it gets frustrating at times, especially when I have to explain the rules on occasion and get responses like "Sorry coach, we can't change it now" and "Really? I'll have to look that up." Are you fucking kidding me? I'll have to look that up? I get that our games don't carry the cache of top state programs like Chandler, Centennial, Saguaro, etc, but that is ridiculous. I also can't blame the officials though, I am sure they all want to do a good job, but when you are working what is basically akin to a weekend job delivering pizzas and get the abuse they get you see why the turnover is high and is high and many of them are jaded, which yeah, makes them look closer at the team whose coaches parents give them the most grief. Or favor the home team because that is the environment that presents the biggest "threat" in terms of abuse.

I have a few disturbing stories about crews we have received at Hayden (Two guys on a crew making bets on the game as it went, an official seen drinking a beer in the parking lot at HT, etc) that I won't get any deeper into, but to address this we need, IMHO.

1-More focus by the AIA and schools o controlling their crowds and coaches so you keep quality officials.

2-A better experience mix on crews, give new officials to an experienced crew who can mentor/train them beyond what they get off the field.

3-Invest (The AIA) in a better evaluation system and provide feedback and training to address efficiencies. Right now most of the crew feedback comes from coaches and you know that will be biased too.

And as an aside some parents and coaches just need to shut the fuck up and accept that officials make mistakes and constantly badgering them puts a target on your teams back and drives good officials away. And officials aren't innocent either. It's a job, not a calling and your ego should never interfere with how you call a game because we are all human.

Hell, I am guilty of needing to STFU at times too. I got flagged for an unsportsmanlike for only the second time in my entire coaching career this past season and the first thing I did after the game was seek out the official that threw it on me and apologize.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

It's a job, not a calling and your ego should never interfere with how you call a game because we are all human.

Is really a job? How much do they get paid?

I'd think it's at least partly a calling in that people don't get into it as a lucrative career.

[molson]

One of things you hear from parents again and again on this, including in this thread, and in the thread title, that this is a moral issue. That a ref making a mistake, (from the parent's perspective in the stands rooting for one team over another), is a personal failing. That's a big thinking error that leads to the entitlement, which leads to the harassment.

If a player doesn't make enough shots, or isn't skilled enough, it's not a moral failing, they're just not good at that sport relative to others. That shouldn't matter much at the lowest levels of youth sports, but by high school, those players just don't make the team or they don't play a lot. It happens, it's not because they're bad people.

It should be the same with refs. If a ref misses a lot calls, or doesn't have the right emotional attributes to do that job, it's not a moral failing, they're just not good at that particular task relative to others. So, others who are better at it should get those jobs. If there's nobody else willing to do it - then shit, I guess it turns out they ARE good at the job relative to others. They're being compared against a theoretical fiction of a better ref that doesn't exist or who isn't willing to do the job. The parents should be grateful that they're still there. And of course, maybe just treat them like human beings anyway, if that isn't too much trouble.

At the pro level, where there's good pay, and actual barriers to entry - it's still not a moral failing when a ref makes a mistake, but, it's possible in some cases that the underlying system could be flawed in failing to utilize at least close to the best available refs. Maybe the evaluation system is flawed, or refs are allowed to stick around too long, for example. But I'm even skeptical of that, because - where are these theoretical better refs that can call games better than say, the NFL referees? There's no level of sports that refs are considered good. So if they suck in college, in high school, and Pop Warner - then, maybe, just maybe, they're better than you think if nobody else is around that can do it better. That, by definition, means that they're "good", if they can do the job better or as good as the other available options.

And of course as the ref pool continues to shrink because of the parents, the parents are going to get angrier and angrier, and the death spiral gains momentum. It sucks for the kids, but it is great as entertainment value from a safe distance.

I am very thankful for the youth sports climate I grew up in. The parents set good examples and it was always emphasized to respect everyone else involved in the game, from the officials to the other players. It just wasn't tolerated to harass refs, at all. That would just unthinkable. I think I gained a lot from the experience. I feel bad for the kids today who learn different lessons. Aside from the fact that they're more likely to be shitty adults like their parents are, I bet they also don't enjoy the experience as much. That ref rage just doesn't seem very pleasant for the ref or for the parent, or player. If you don't get emotionally triggered by every ref mistake, if you don't think every call you disagree with is a personal attack from a bad person who failed morally in some way, sports are a lot more fun as a participant, parent, or viewer.

[tarcone]

At what point is it "okay"? I mean these refs literally changed the outcome of the game in the favor of the home team. Why do these girls have to suffer because these refs want the home tam to win? Why is that fair? Why is that moral?

I get that there is a major catch 22 here. Refs are needed and should be treated respectfully to keep them around, but the shitty refs make parents incredibly frustrated and pissed off which makes them harass the refs which drives refs away.

But, Im not talking about incompetence, Ive had a bad game or 3, I know that. Im talking blatant favoritism. Picking on High school students. Making sure your team wins.

Thats a problem. I guess it is human nature to favor your team. But as an official, you should know how to turn it off.

And one more story from the game last night. The home team was running the clock out at the 3 minute mark in the 4th. We were playing man defense. Was the ref counting like they should? No. Our coach questioned them during a TO and he said he was doing it in his head. Really?

This is an integrity issue. Its not a competence issue.

[JonInMiddleGA]

from the AJC coverage of last night's state Class A girls semi-final

The traveling call aside, there were issues between the officiating crew and scorer’s table that affected play for both teams. The game had to be stopped twice to correct the score, it was acknowledged that fouls were being improperly attributed to the wrong players, a team was given double-bonus free throws despite not being in the double bonus — that was later corrected — and the buzzer inadvertently went off during game play in a number of instances.

[PilotMan]

If you can't get the right people to keep the game at the level is should be at, you should fold the competition until such time that you can. I know that's like throwing the bathwater out with the baby, but there's no other real alternative besides doubling the fees and cost of the programs just to have officials who are worthy of the jobs.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by molson

Is really a job? How much do they get paid?

I'd think it's at least partly a calling in that people don't get into it as a lucrative career.

In Arizona HS officials get $70 for a varsity game and $45 for a lower level game, plus mileage for travel.

And my comment regarding calling was meant more towards those officials that make it about them, vs those that do it because they are passionate about sports.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

In Arizona HS officials get $70 for a varsity game and $45 for a lower level game, plus mileage for travel.

And my comment regarding calling was meant more towards those officials that make it about them, vs those that do it because they are passionate about sports.

Just to add to the sample, here's select Georgia pay scales

B'ball: varsity $67 per / $56 (2 crew vs 3 crew), JV $46 per, Region tourney $71, state tourney $150

Football: Varsity $100 per person (half fee for chain, clock duty), $62 JV, $150 state playoffs

Soccer (cause we have a few of those here): Varsity $66/$52 (2 vs 3) + half fee for side judge, JV $51 (two crew only), state tourney $440/3 person crew

edit to add: travel is on a per crew per competition basis 1 official $20, 2 officials split $30, 3 officials split $35

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

If you can't get the right people to keep the game at the level is should be at, you should fold the competition until such time that you can.

I don't disagree. But we have a sanctioning body that makes federal/state legislatures look functional and capable by comparison sooooooo ...

[tarcone]

I worked one MS game last year. I was paid for travel. It was about 60 miles round trip. I made $90

Varsity BB officials make about $130 in MO.


And half of them are stealing.

[Hammer755]

None of my three kids have ever been athletic growing up but they've always played youth sports because they enjoy it and it gets them up and moving and away from screens.

Because no game they've ever played has ever been truly meaningful, I've taken a low-key attitude toward toward things like wins & losses and ref performance. It's always more fun when they win, but even if a ref blows a game-winning call, it's out of my mind the second I get in the car to leave.

I continue to be amazed about how horrible the kids and the parents behave even in a league that literally has no stakes. My freshman plays rec league basketball for boys that didn't make their high school team. At every game, there has been at least one kid and one parent (usually more) that was incredibly rude and disrespectful toward the officials and/or the other team and/or his own teammates. On my son's team, it's the coach and his son ... the kid is absolutely insufferable. Every time a foul is called, the arms are thrown in the air and the eyes roll even if he tackled the point guard like a defensive back. When he commits a turnover after a dumb pass, he immediately blames his teammates publicly. Virtually every team I've come across has a kid like this and their parents are usually terribly behaved as well.

Anyways, the point of this is from my experience, every parent thinks their kid is targeted and the ref is obviously biased toward the other team. As an observer, it's almost never the case.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Hammer755

None of my three kids have ever been athletic growing up but they've always played youth sports because they enjoy it and it gets them up and moving and away from screens.

Because no game they've ever played has ever been truly meaningful, I've taken a low-key attitude toward toward things like wins & losses and ref performance. It's always more fun when they win, but even if a ref blows a game-winning call, it's out of my mind the second I get in the car to leave.

I continue to be amazed about how horrible the kids and the parents behave even in a league that literally has no stakes. My freshman plays rec league basketball for boys that didn't make their high school team. At every game, there has been at least one kid and one parent (usually more) that was incredibly rude and disrespectful toward the officials and/or the other team and/or his own teammates. On my son's team, it's the coach and his son ... the kid is absolutely insufferable. Every time a foul is called, the arms are thrown in the air and the eyes roll even if he tackled the point guard like a defensive back. When he commits a turnover after a dumb pass, he immediately blames his teammates publicly. Virtually every team I've come across has a kid like this and their parents are usually terribly behaved as well.

Anyways, the point of this is from my experience, every parent thinks their kid is targeted and the ref is obviously biased toward the other team. As an observer, it's almost never the case.

This is exactly why if I even saw one of my players start this act, they would get pulled immediately. If they complained about the refs, I would tell them unless a PK was called, they were not directly affecting the result of the soccer game (they could, but that was not the message I wanted to send), if we were the better team and playing better we could overcome both the refs and the other team.

So many people today come across as entitled, its why I go so hard the other way in many areas. If you excel, eventually you are going to be noticed.

[tarcone]

You are wrong. There are officials that are homers. I have pointed it out in this thread. And I feel like your post was targeted towards me, Hammer. It is a known factor in away games in our Varsity Basketball league that you get homered in certain gyms. The refs are from the area and will favor the home team. You do not have this experience, so you cannot comment on it. I am not the only person who believes this. I work with the JV boys coach and have friends with kids on other teams. It is a certainty that you will get screwed. The question is do you have the talent to overcome it? This season we did not. So my daughter not only faced double and triple teams and box and 1s, she also faced refs targeting her. Believe it or not with your rec league experience, it does happen.

[jbergey22]

Home teams get ref bias at every level of sports. Its not intentional for the most part just the subconscious giving a slight edge to the home team.

Home bias is not only happening in Missouri.

[Dr. Sak]

We have at least one basketball ref in this thread and I can't believe no one mentioned this:

watching players fall and slide 6-8 feet with the ball on their stomach and no traveling on the other end

Sliding on your stomach with your feet not touching the ground is not traveling.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Sliding on your stomach with your feet not touching the ground is not traveling.

If I knew this in my Biddy League days I'd be sliding all over the place. I'd be unstoppable!