Ongoing pro/college basketball thread (2023-24)

[stevew]

I just saw one picture of Zion Williamson in shape and wasted $20 on an MVP future ticket at +10,000

[miami_fan]

A few of my critiques of Caitlin Clark from earlier in the season.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

She is going to have to find ways to get to and make shots at the basket. Eleven of fifteen shot attempts from behind the three point line is making it too easy for the opposition.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It is early but the Fever would be better off having Kelsey Mitchell being the primary scorer at least early on. Caitlyn's forcing her own offense and is force feeding the ball to Aliyah Boston.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It just might be be better for the team in general and Caitlyn specifically if there was more of a focus on Caitlyn the great passer and offensive creator than on Caitlyn the scorer at this point.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Clark's shot chart from last night was a basketball nerd's wet dream. Four for six not just on twos, not just in the paint, but almost exclusively in the restricted area. Three for ten on shots not just from behind the three point line but almost exclusively from twenty five feet or more. I know that the logo threes are what people want to see but she is too good of a shooter all over the court to not mix in a few mid range shots here and there.

Getting to the basket more?......Check
Being more of a passer first? ...... Check
Shooting a few mid range jumpers?... Check

The Caitlin Clark that was the college player of the year last season has finally arrived in the W.

BTW she is still getting rocked once or twice a game just like every WNBA player. After being reacquainted with FIBA basketball for both the men and the women, I am now of the opinion that girls and women's basketball is called much more like the FIBA game for both the men and women while boys and men's basketball is called more like the NBA game.

[SirFozzie]

ESPN has an article on the NBA asking the court to dismiss the TNT/Warner Brothers discovery, and lists all the changes that TNT/WBD made:

NBA files motion to dismiss Warner Bros. Discovery lawsuit - ESPN

I think the lawsuit will survive the motion to dismiss (it's VERY hard to get the judge to agree that no reasonable person could consider this a match), but it sounds like NBA's trying to play hardball here. (Realistically, this is all a waiting game, WBD/TNT want lots of money to go away, and the NBA doesn't want to give lots of money. Neither side actually wants to go to trial)

[Brian Swartz]

Apparently Damien Lillard was/is training with the Goggins. Safe to say he's not likely to have any conditioning issues next year.

[GrantDawg]

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.

The Fever are the best offense in the WNBA. pic.twitter.com/T1an71Fhw7

— Kirk Goldsberry (@kirkgoldsberry) September 10, 2024

[Radii]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.

My sister and I watch every one of their games that we can, it's been incredibly fun following the league, I definitely want to go to a game next year.

[stevew]

Woj dropping the most massive Woj bomb today that he is retiring to go work for St Bonaventure. Helluva run.

[Ghost Econ]

It would have been better if Charania had scooped him.

[Atocep]

KAT to the Knicks for Randle and other pieces?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

This is pretty amazing considering where they started at the begining of the season. It is also amazing how much I enjoy watching the WNBA, or specifically watching the Fever play.

I watched a little of the Fever but only because of Caitlin Clark.

Lot's of YT out there pro Clark and negativity towards Reece and the culture (?) of the WNBA. So, what is the real story?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

KAT to the Knicks for Randle and other pieces?

Karl Anthony Towns vs. The NY media.

The Knicks better not lose one game.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I watched a little of the Fever but only because of Caitlin Clark.

Lot's of YT out there pro Clark and negativity towards Reece and the culture (?) of the WNBA. So, what is the real story?

Racism. Jealousy. Media exploitation. There are definitely old school WNBA players that don't like a straight white girl getting so much attention, but the media is exploiting that, especially right-wing media. Fans then have started attacking POC players both online and on the court with racist comments.

For the most part, you can watch the other players interact with Clark and see they get along. Most of it has been just click-farming. She has brought lots of eyes and people to the seats in the league, and players generally recognize that only means more money for everyone.

As for Reece in particular, they are rivals. She and Clark have clashed all through college. She has made comments that she feels unjustly ignored at times because of Clark. Really, it could be a fun rivalry if they hadn't started making it about race and brought in the rage-farmers.

[stevew]

The Knicks just got a whole lot dumber.

[Atocep]

TIL Woj was making about $7 mil per year at ESPN when left to join the Bonnie's athletic department.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Atocep

TIL Woj was making about $7 mil per year at ESPN when left to join the Bonnie's athletic department.

They are saying ESPN is considering moving MLB reporter Jeff Passan over to become their chief NBA insider.

[Ksyrup]

UK had Big Blue Madness tonight and the worst kept secret in Lexington was that Pitino was going to show up. Now, I get it - Pope is his guy from the 1996 championship team, Pope has been preaching "UK family" and nostalgia for the (mostly) pre-Calipari UK teams, and Pitino was due for a proper return to Lexington.

That said... dude is the current, active head coach at St. John's! When Pope was a candidate, Pitino came out in support of him. Totally understandable. When he was hired, he made some noise about donating to the program (OK?). Now, he's shown up for the start of UK's season - wearing UK blue. I assume St. John's blessed his appearance (or at least didn't say no), but I find this whole thing incredibly weird. He's acting like a retired coach "coming home" when in fact he's still a head coach - AND will be playing UK this year.

I assume everyone here loved it, but I found it really awkward. St. John's fans/players cool with this?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I assume everyone here loved it, but I found it really awkward. St. John's fans/players cool with this?

Do they have a choice? Pitino may be a douchbag but he is also a hall of fame coach. If it bothers St. John's that much, they can fire Pitino. UK will demote Pope to lead assistant if they feel like being nice and then hire Pitino.

Would St. John's prefer to be with a hall of fame coach who has a night out or two with one of his exes or would they prefer not to have that hall of fame coach?

[Ksyrup]

Well, apparently I'm not alone in thinking that was ridiculous and embarrassing.

#BREAKING: Big East commissioner Val Ackerman held a phone conference with St. John’s head coach Rick Pitino and AD Ed Kull this morning to discuss Pitino’s visit to Kentucky this weekend, per source.

Ackerman called the visit an “embarrassment to the conference” and “wholly… pic.twitter.com/h5RUEn8QnM

— Rob Reinhart (@RealRobReinhart) October 13, 2024

[Ksyrup]

The rest of that tweet is - "Forced resignation for Pitino is on the table, among other possible sanctions for St. John’s, I’m told."

[Atocep]

It was ridiculous, insulting to his players, and it's not like Pitino had any leverage to pull a stunt like that. The guy is 72 and damaged goods, or else he wouldn't be at St. John's. Programs aren't beating down his door to coach at their school at this point.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Well, apparently I'm not alone in thinking that was ridiculous and embarrassing.

That seems to be a troll post from a low end source.

[Ksyrup]

Another reason I stay away from Twitter these days. The reasons just keep piling up to delete the damn thing like I did FB a few years back.

[JPhillips]

I can understand it if St. John's wants to discipline him, but I don't see how the conference can do anything unless they have some sort of written rules.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

It was ridiculous, insulting to his players, and it's not like Pitino had any leverage to pull a stunt like that. The guy is 72 and damaged goods, or else he wouldn't be at St. John's. Programs aren't beating down his door to coach at their school at this point.

Troll post aside, I can't see why it would be an issue for St. John's. It's not like he went back to Providence to celebrate his history with them. Providence is one of St John's conference rivals. He went to Kentucky under the invite of one of his former players who is now Kentucky's head coach to celebrate with other former players of his the achievements they all had at that school.

If he had left Louisville to do this, I get everyone being upset. This is St John's and this ain't Louie Carnesecca's St John's program either. This is a St. John's program that signed a 70 year old coach with Pitino's baggage to a 6 year deal for $20 million total. That suggests he has a bit more leverage that we may think. Add to that a Pitino rant where he absolutely insulted his players telling them they were not good enough motivated a donor contribute some $10 million to the NIL fund. He might have taken the school private jet to Lexington.

[RainMaker]

Bennett retiring from Virginia out of the blue today. Health or scandal related? Seems like some odd timing.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Bennett retiring from Virginia out of the blue today. Health or scandal related? Seems like some odd timing.

He's been really unhappy with the lack of NIL support and other things lately. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why and he takes a year off and then takes another job.

[Ksyrup]

If someone told me an ACC coach was going to retire 2 weeks before the season starts, I'd have gone HAM. Coach Ham, that is.

[Ksyrup]

If it's NIL/Portal stuff, that's really bad timing to screw over your players this close to the season. But maybe he just decided he couldn't recruit HS kids and portal players now knowing he was going to leave at the end of this season, so he ripped the band-aid off now.

[Ksyrup]

First time since 1981 no coach in the ACC has a national championship on their resume.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

He's been really unhappy with the lack of NIL support and other things lately. I wouldn't be surprised if that's why and he takes a year off and then takes another job.

A request for more NIL funding would have required a change in offensive style right? But it would make no sense in my opinion to expect Tony Bennett to change his style after all these years.

[INDalltheway]

He retired this close to the season so his guy would get the job rather than a national search. Similiar to what Bo Ryan did during the season to ensure Gard got the job (and also to cover up how he used university money to fund his affair).

[Ksyrup]

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

The changes in the sport made him $38 million over the past decade. Didn't see him complaining when it benefited him.

[RainMaker]

One thing the process is good for is exposing the coaches in college sports who realize they can't cut it when they don't have a massive talent advantage over other teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Bennett confirmed this was about NIL and portal - "The game and college athletics are not in a healthy spot. I think I was equipped to do the job the old way."

Well, that's his story at least. The timing of this sudden epiphany ... well that does give me some doubts.

A factor could be the fact he ain't won a tournament game since 2019. Another could be the realization he probably wasn't gonna win one this year either.

[RainMaker]

It's weird too because he has used the transfer portal successfully to bring in really good players. He just wasn't able to win with them. Still can't fathom how they couldn't make it out of the first round with that 2021 team.

[Ksyrup]

My understanding is that it's what INDalltheway said - he timed it like this so his assistant would at least get first crack at showing he could be the head coach as interim, rather than doing it at the end of the year and allowing the school the time to do a full search and potentially exclude him. I don't know who "him" is and I don't know if that's true, but I've read that in multiple places/

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

My understanding is that it's what INDalltheway said - he timed it like this so his assistant would at least get first crack at showing he could be the head coach as interim, rather than doing it at the end of the year and allowing the school the time to do a full search and potentially exclude him. I don't know who "him" is and I don't know if that's true, but I've read that in multiple places/

Ron Sanchez, who was a coach for Bennett then took the job at Charlotte, had a losing record there, and landed back with Bennett last year. It's unlikely he'd even get an interview if they had a full offseason to make a hire. Now he's probably going to get a chance to coach this year and get an interview unless they can somehow pull someone with a couple weeks left until the season starts.

The rumor at the start of this past coaching cycle was that Bennett would at least listen to offers to leave UVA because he wasn't getting enough NIL support. If he wants to sit out for a year or two he'll have his choice of jobs as they open. Dealing with recruiting high school players, transfers, and your own players 24/7 isn't for everyone. I 100% get any of the older guard coaches wanting to step away from the mess NCAA sports are right now.

[bronconick]

For all the hype from this rookie class, the WNBA is apparently going to lose $40 million, which is an improvement over the projected $50 million.

https://www.si.com/onsi/womens-fastb...a-01jah39wngp2

[sovereignstar v2]

The phantom call that forced overtime was super cute. Nice fix

[sovereignstar v2]

What a fucking joke of a call

[Ksyrup]

I'm not sure how to assess the back-to-back stories this week about the WNBA losing $40M and the players opting out of the CBA to get "a bigger piece of the pie." Plenty of people are making money off the league, I'm sure, and we're all aware of how teams and leagues hide profits and cry poor (I don't know enough about the WNBA to understand its economics aside from the fact that the NBA is thr main investor and appears to be propping the league up for an ROI that may never come), but if it's not profitable, seems like a hard ask for a bigger portion of revenues.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I'm not sure how to assess the back-to-back stories this week about the WNBA losing $40M and the players opting out of the CBA to get "a bigger piece of the pie." Plenty of people are making money off the league, I'm sure, and we're all aware of how teams and leagues hide profits and cry poor (I don't know enough about the WNBA to understand its economics aside from the fact that the NBA is thr main investor and appears to be propping the league up for an ROI that may never come), but if it's not profitable, seems like a hard ask for a bigger portion of revenues.

I think that "loss" release was exactly targeted because the owners knew the opt out was coming. If the owners were in real danger of losing on their investment, Golden State and Toronto wouldn't be paying $50 million a piece in franchise fees to get in, and Portland wouldn't be paying $60 million. Toronto and Portland also having to invest another $50 million on top of that in facilities and other cost.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah I get it. I'd love to see the true financial picture - of any of these leagues, really. But I will allow for some truth to the idea of "ramp up" losses and some impatience with things happening more slowly than anticipated/promised.

[RainMaker]

The "financial loss" is inconsequential since it's based off the old media deal. The new media deal starts in 2026 and jumps from $60 million to $200 million. That should wipe out all losses and put the teams into the black. The league is also no longer footing the bill for production costs like they were on their old deal which likely saves millions as well.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The "financial loss" is inconsequential since it's based off the old media deal. The new media deal starts in 2026 and jumps from $60 million to $200 million. That should wipe out all losses and put the teams into the black. The league is also no longer footing the bill for production costs like they were on their old deal which likely saves millions as well.

I was wondering about that and meant to look it up when i got home. I thought they had signed a new deal, but didn't realize it hasn't even kicked in. Tv deals are where most league derive their biggest income. So, yeah. The woman are on pretty good ground to demand a raise, even while the billionaires cry poor as usual.

[stevew]

I keep meaning to checkout the end of the WNBA finals.

Seems like some Minnesota state rep should designate 01/19 as “Sabrina Ionescu Day” to protest the outcome.

[SirFozzie]

Celtics should get the NBA record for most threes.. they scored their 29 threes in just 39 minutes.. then went 0 for 13 the last nine *laughs*

[jcard]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Troll post aside, I can't see why it would be an issue for St. John's. It's not like he went back to Providence to celebrate his history with them. Providence is one of St John's conference rivals. He went to Kentucky under the invite of one of his former players who is now Kentucky's head coach to celebrate with other former players of his the achievements they all had at that school.

If he had left Louisville to do this, I get everyone being upset. This is St John's and this ain't Louie Carnesecca's St John's program either. This is a St. John's program that signed a 70 year old coach with Pitino's baggage to a 6 year deal for $20 million total. That suggests he has a bit more leverage that we may think. Add to that a Pitino rant where he absolutely insulted his players telling them they were not good enough motivated a donor contribute some $10 million to the NIL fund. He might have taken the school private jet to Lexington.

Those last Pitino teams at Kentucky (1995-96 national champs and 1996-97 runner-ups who lost in overtime playing the tournament without arguably their best player; group also seeded large part of 1997-98 Tubby Smith-coached champs) were collectively an incredible accumulation of talent—even with the 94-95 team’s number two scorer and assist man (and future NBAer) Rodrick Rhodes transferring to USC to sit out a year and then finish his collegiate career in 96-97. Just off the top of my head: Wayne Turner, Anthony Epps, Derek Anderson, Tony Delk, Jeff Shepherd (redshirted scheduled 96-97 senior year, F4 MOP in 97-98), Allen Edwards, Cameron Mills, Ron Mercer, Heshimu Evans, Antoine Walker Walter McCarty, Scott Padgett, Jared Prickett, Nazr Mohammed, Jamaal Magloire, Mark Pope…

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I was wondering about that and meant to look it up when i got home. I thought they had signed a new deal, but didn't realize it hasn't even kicked in. Tv deals are where most league derive their biggest income. So, yeah. The woman are on pretty good ground to demand a raise, even while the billionaires cry poor as usual.

The question is how much of a raise they're looking for, and the twist is the new 3v3 league with 30 of the best players (but no CC yet). I don't think today's players have any sympathy for the years of losses up to this point, but if I was a backer I'd feel entitled to a higher portion of the profits that are finally here as payback for some of those. TNT also only needed to pay ~$8 million a year to pay all 30 players at least the WNBA max of $250k (plus equity) for much less work and travel, and if they've got that as a fallback those top players may be a lot less willing to compromise on a smaller graduated pay increase for the WNBA. None of this happens until after next season, so I don't see any deal getting worked out in that time and both sides getting a data point on how that league does TV rating wise and whether the WNBA can capitalize on the recent popularity surge or if it still stays really Caitlin Clark centric.