POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Ksyrup]

He also rage-tweeted about Obama's comments about him, saying it should be illegal to speak against former presidents. The lack of self-awareness is astounding - although that's not really what that is. What he means of course, is it should be a one-way street. And he'll no doubt try to make it so if he's elected again.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

Trump is now saying he'll invoke the Alien Enemies Act. The last time that was used was to intern Japanese during WW2.

Wonder if Dutch still thinks I'm overreacting to be nervous about my Chinese daughter's future.

If she is legal and (obviously) not a gang member, why worry?

Trump rallies in Aurora -- a city he has demonized as overrun by migrant crime : NPR

He announced that if elected again, he would enact a nationwide effort dubbed “Operation Aurora” to target undocumented migrant gang members for arrest and deportation. Trump said the program would be based on the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, a wartime authority that allows a president to detain or deport members of an enemy nation.

Trump also said he was calling for the death penalty "for any migrant that kills an American citizen or a law-enforcement officer."

[Ghost Econ]

There WERE good Jews in Germany.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If she is legal and (obviously) not a gang member, why worry?

Trump rallies in Aurora -- a city he has demonized as overrun by migrant crime : NPR

I’m glad you trust a Trump admin to round these minorities and immigrants up in a manner that won’t infringe on anyone’s rights that is here legally but might look they are from somewhere else.

I’m mean the guy always has the best plans and implements them flawlessly. Why would this be any different, right?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If she is legal and (obviously) not a gang member, why worry?

Trump rallies in Aurora -- a city he has demonized as overrun by migrant crime : NPR

Explain to me how these mass detentions and deportations are going to happen in a way that ensures people review of citizenship/criminal status? The whole point of the Alien Enemies Act is that the President is given the authority without judicial review. He can just order detentions of people from nation X.

[JPhillips]

dola

And don't sleep on the change from illegal to migrant. Trump isn't just talking about people here illegally.

[JPhillips]

double dola

And we'll go through the typical Trump news cycle on this.

Trump: I'm going to lock up people in camps like in WW2.

Supporter: He doesn't really mean that. Don't be absurd.

Trump: Of course I mean that. In fact I mean double that.

Supporter: Sure he means it, but it probably won't be that bad.

Trump: It will be way worse.

Supporter: MAGA!

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I’m glad you trust a Trump admin to round these minorities and immigrants up in a manner that won’t infringe on anyone’s rights that is here legally but might look they are from somewhere else.

I’m mean the guy always has the best plans and implements them flawlessly. Why would this be any different, right?

On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is when most/all legal naturalized citizens need to worry about being imprisoned, tossed out of the country, rights removed etc. IMO we are at a 2-3.

The 2-3 is for ... I can definitely see where Trump is "infringing on the rights" (debatable) on some legal/pending immigrants like Dreamers; there may be a fight on foreign student pro-Palestinian demonstrators kicked out; there may be a fight on temporary asylum foreigners; there may be a fight on some Permanent Residents from undesirable countries etc.

A 10 is when most/all legally adopted foreign kids are threatened. A 9 or 10 is when most/all legal, naturalized citizens are threatened. But that won't happen because they can vote.

So yeah, no doubt there'll be fights and SCOTUS will rule on what is legal or not. Just like what Trump wanted to do was challenged, just like what Joe wanted to do was challenged. But no, there is no way in hell a legally adopted foreign kid are tossed out unless there is a special unique situation (e.g. parents are illegal?).

[JPhillips]

Again, what's the process for mass detention camps that Trump has promised to establish?

Let's say Trump decides that Chinese illegal immigrants need to be detained and deported. How does the process work so that my daughter is guaranteed not to be detained?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Explain to me how these mass detentions and deportations are going to happen in a way that ensures people review of citizenship/criminal status? The whole point of the Alien Enemies Act is that the President is given the authority without judicial review. He can just order detentions of people from nation X.

Specific to foreign born, naturalized citizens ... explain to me how SCOTUS, Congress and voting naturalized citizens will let this happen? Same to your point, how will Trump round up all the legal naturalized citizens and detain them?

Sure, he can order detentions and kick out illegal immigrants. Doing that to legal, naturalized citizens is a whole different matter in this day and age.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Again, what's the process for mass detention camps that Trump has promised to establish?

Let's say Trump decides that Chinese illegal immigrants need to be detained and deported. How does the process work so that my daughter is guaranteed not to be detained?

Much better talking about illegals and not conflating it with legal (especially naturalized) immigrants.

Specific to your daughter ...

INS: You have 90 says to send the necessary documents showing your daughter was legally adopted and is naturalized citizen
JPhilips: Sure, here they are
INS: Okay, we'll put it into our new fancy consolidated database.

re: detained. I've seen enough YT police videos to know that being "detained" when stopped for a valid/legal reason is NOT illegal. There are many reasons why people can be stopped and asked for IDs, and if not provided, they can be "detained".

Or do you really mean to say "detention, like internment camps"

[JPhillips]

Trump isn't saying illegal anymore, he's saying migrant. He's specifically said that Haitians here legally should be deported.

As I've said previously, most people don't carry proof of citizenship. What happens if they are asked and can't provide it? Are they sent to a camp? Are they sent home with a summons?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

dola

And don't sleep on the change from illegal to migrant. Trump isn't just talking about people here illegally.

Huh? See my orig NPR quote below, it's pretty clear he's talking about illegal, gang members.

He announced that if elected again, he would enact a nationwide effort dubbed “Operation Aurora” to target undocumented migrant gang members for arrest and deportation. Trump said the program would be based on the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, a wartime authority that allows a president to detain or deport members of an enemy nation.

Trump also said he was calling for the death penalty "for any migrant that kills an American citizen or a law-enforcement officer."

I didn't listen to the speech in its entirety, but going by the NPR quotes, its pretty clear to me what he meant.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Specific to foreign born, naturalized citizens ... explain to me how SCOTUS, Congress and voting naturalized citizens will let this happen? Same to your point, how will Trump round up all the legal naturalized citizens and detain them?

Sure, he can order detentions and kick out illegal immigrants. Doing that to legal, naturalized citizens is a whole different matter in this day and age.

We're hoping SCOTUS says no and that Trump listens to them. The Alien Enemies Act allows the president to declare people from country X to be detained and/or deported. There isn't a vote that needs to happen.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump isn't saying illegal anymore, he's saying migrant. He's specifically said that Haitians here legally should be deported.

As I've said previously, most people don't carry proof of citizenship. What happens if they are asked and can't provide it? Are they sent to a camp? Are they sent home with a summons?

As I've stated previously, there will be some contentious issues

The 2-3 is for ... I can definitely see where Trump is "infringing on the rights" (debatable) on some legal/pending immigrants like Dreamers; there may be a fight on foreign student pro-Palestinian demonstrators kicked out; there may be a fight on temporary asylum foreigners; there may be a fight on some Permanent Residents from undesirable countries etc.

But let's get back to your original worry about your legally adopted, naturalized daughter. Explain to me how she will be threatened with expulsion, imprisonment/internment etc.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

We're hoping SCOTUS says no and that Trump listens to them. The Alien Enemies Act allows the president to declare people from country X to be detained and/or deported. There isn't a vote that needs to happen.

Your original statement was concern for your daughter. Let's stay specifically with that. I'll repeat my question

But let's get back to your original worry about your legally adopted, naturalized daughter. Explain to me how she will be threatened with expulsion, imprisonment/internment etc.

[JPhillips]

Why would the AEA need to be invoked if it's just for illegal immigrant criminals? Those people can already be deported or imprisoned.

He's said people legally here under temporary protective staus need to be deported. He's said people here legally as asylum seekers need to be deported. He's said people need to be re-migrated to other countries. Trump has been very clear his policies won't be limited to illegal immigrants.

[Edward64]

I'll ask a third time ...

But let's get back to your original worry about your legally adopted, naturalized daughter. Explain to me how she will be threatened with expulsion, imprisonment/internment etc.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

But let's get back to your original worry about your legally adopted, naturalized daughter. Explain to me how she will be threatened with expulsion, imprisonment/internment etc.

She's asked to provide prof of citizenship. Doesn't have it on her. Is detained.

Now maybe she has the chance to prove citizenship at a later date, but I'd rather her not be detained. Worst case, she isn't given the opportunity to prove citizenship before she's deported to a country that she has no memory of.

ANd don't tell me it can't happen because that's exactly what happened to the Japanese and that's exactly what Trump and Stephen Miller are threatening.

Dutch started giving me crap when I said I was going to make my daughter carry he passport. Doesn't sound at all crazy to me.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

She's asked to provide prof of citizenship. Doesn't have it on her. Is detained.

Now maybe she has the chance to prove citizenship at a later date, but I'd rather her not be detained. Worst case, she isn't given the opportunity to prove citizenship before she's deported to a country that she has no memory of.

ANd don't tell me it can't happen because that's exactly what happened to the Japanese and that's exactly what Trump and Stephen Miller are threatening.

Dutch started giving me crap when I said I was going to make my daughter carry he passport. Doesn't sound at all crazy to me.

And if she doesn't have it on her and is detained, so what? People are legally temporarily detained all the time when they don't have identification (e.g. drunk drivers, sovcits etc.). What's the big deal with providing documentation? Well worth the hassle to greatly reduce illegals.

If your argument is there is no "documentation" yet that a person can carry that will prove citizenship, this is true. It's pretty obvious to me that one/database will need to be created.

[JPhillips]

I don't want my daughter sent to a camp even temporarily.

There won't be a national ID card before day 1, when Trump is saying detentions will start.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't want my daughter sent to a camp even temporarily.

There won't be a national ID card before day 1, when Trump is saying detentions will start.

If you really believe your underage, foreign born, legal, naturalized daughter will be sent to an internment camp right away without any reasonable recourse, then this discussion (as always) won't get anywhere.

If you want to discuss Haitians, Dreamers etc. I can definitely see more of your POV. But your daughter, not so much.

[flere-imsaho]

Holy shit, Edward.

Edit: in response to this:

And if she doesn't have it on her and is detained, so what? People are legally temporarily detained all the time when they don't have identification (e.g. drunk drivers, sovcits etc.). What's the big deal with providing documentation? Well worth the hassle to greatly reduce illegals.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If you really believe your underage, foreign born, legal, naturalized daughter will be sent to an internment camp right away without any reasonable recourse, then this discussion (as always) won't get anywhere.

If you want to discuss Haitians, Dreamers etc. I can definitely see more of your POV. But your daughter, not so much.

My daughter is an adult. She's in a different city 8 months of the year.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Holy shit, Edward.

Well, you and I still have a date in the next 4-5 years. This is the same as our bet.

[JPhillips]

STEPHEN MILLER: They want you to have to justify why you want the migrants out. No No No. They have to justify why the hell they're bringing the migrants in! And they cannot!

This isn't just about illegal immigrants.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My daughter is an adult. She's in a different city 8 months of the year.

Oh sorry. I assumed she was younger as I thought you the adoption occurred in the past several years. My apologies.

I'm an adult. I'm a legal, naturalized citizen. I have no problems providing documentation as needed. They'll need to state what identification will suffice, give us time to get/receive it. And if asked, I'll gladly provided it.

[JPhillips]

Trump immigration advisor Stephen Miller calls for a country of “only Americans” and says “America will be reclaimed for Americans.”

Not about illegal immigrants.

[flere-imsaho]

Edward is OK with someone being stopped for an expired license tag, the cop asking person for proof of citizenship, the person not being able to provide it, the cop dragging them out of their car and putting them in cuffs, the person being taken to a police station and booked, and then the person being temporarily transferred to a "transition camp" unless said person's family finally figures out what's going on and manages to go through official channels, possibly taking days or weeks, to provide documentation to release said individual, with all the attendant trauma to the "arrested" person, their family, and possible loss of income. So as to "reduce illegals".

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Oh sorry. I assumed she was younger as I thought you the adoption occurred in the past several years. My apologies.

I'm an adult. I'm a legal, naturalized citizen. I have no problems providing documentation as needed. They'll need to state what identification will suffice, give us time to get/receive it. And if asked, I'll gladly provided it.

You're arguing that there's a way to do things that wouldn't infringe on rights and I agree, but what Trump is promising has no connection to that fantasy. There are no details other than there will be mass detentions and camps starting on day one.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm an adult. I'm a legal, naturalized citizen. I have no problems providing documentation as needed. They'll need to state what identification will suffice, give us time to get/receive it. And if asked, I'll gladly provided it.

This from the Trump "feel free to go rough on them" Administration?

Exactly how naive are you?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This isn't just about illegal immigrants.

I googled on the statement. See below at approx. 35 sec on what Stephen Miller said.

End the invasion. End the occupation. And to send the illegals back home

x.com

As I've said before, we need to stop conflating between illegal and legals, and just using "immigrants" or "migrants". Admittedly, Trump & Co. don't always specifically state the difference, but this speech is not one of them.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm a legal, naturalized citizen.

Well, you shouldn't be. Everything you've posted on this page is about as unAmerican as one can be.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I googled on the statement. See below at approx. 35 sec on what Stephen Miller said.

What invasion? What occupation? Does he have proof? Take your mouth off Stephen Miller's dick for a moment and think with the brain god gave you, moron.

[cartman]

It is amazing that people want to go to such extremes to prevent something that is a minor civil offense. People act like being an illegal immigrant is a serious felony, when according to the law, it is the same level as a speeding ticket, a civil violation not a criminal violation.

[flere-imsaho]

It's almost like there was another motive at play, cartman.

[JPhillips]

I'm not the one mixing the two. Trump and Miller are. I'm just quoting what they are saying.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Edward is OK with someone being stopped for an expired license tag, the cop asking person for proof of citizenship, the person not being able to provide it, the cop dragging them out of their car and putting them in cuffs, the person being taken to a police station and booked, and then the person being temporarily transferred to a "transition camp" unless said person's family finally figures out what's going on and manages to go through official channels, possibly taking days or weeks, to provide documentation to release said individual, with all the attendant trauma to the "arrested" person, their family, and possible loss of income. So as to "reduce illegals".

Nope. That only happens when the driver cops an attitude, doesn't follow orders, start spouting sovcit BS etc.

Using my example of a car stop ...

Cop: you were driving erratically. Provide license/proof of citizenship, registration and insurance
Perp: I'm sorry, I don't have license/proof of citizenship. Here's the registration and insurance
Cop: okay, your name and birthdate
Perp: my name is X and birth date is Y
Cop: (goes and checks database, in addition to registration and birthdate)
Cop: okay, looks good. Here's a citation for not providing your ID

or

Cop: you are not in the database. Here's a summons to appear on X date with the proper Id

Simple.

[cartman]

Papers please for thee, not for me

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope. That only happens when the driver cops an attitude, doesn't follow orders, start spouting sovcit BS etc.

So if we're all meek little people and follow orders to head to the ghetto everything will be OK, Mr. Rumkowski?

Using my example of a car stop ...

Cop: you were driving erratically. Provide license/proof of citizenship, registration and insurance
Perp: I'm sorry, I don't have license/proof of citizenship. Here's the registration and insurance
Cop: okay, your name and birthdate
Perp: my name is X and birth date is Y
Cop: (goes and checks database, in addition to registration and birthdate)
Cop: okay, looks good. Here's a citation for not providing your ID

Do you look like one of the migrants that Stephen Miller is attempting to eradicate from the earth?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not the one mixing the two. Trump and Miller are. I'm just quoting what they are saying.

You are mixing the two. You may have quoted what they said, but you did not provide full context. Again, see the X link starting at about :35. He was clearly alluding to illegals.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What invasion? What occupation? Does he have proof? Take your mouth off Stephen Miller's dick for a moment and think with the brain god gave you, moron.

I am specifically responding to JPhillips statement that Miller, in his specific, quote was talking also about legals. The full X link shows he is incorrect. You want to talk about other stuff, fine.

If you don't think we are being invaded by illegals, then you and I live in different worlds. But yeah, occupation probably goes too far.

Well, you shouldn't be. Everything you've posted on this page is about as unAmerican as one can be.

We'll agree to disagree. I'm willing to undergo some inconvenience to reduce illegal invasion.

[flere-imsaho]

"some inconvenience"

No, I do not agree to disagree. You're a trash human being, Edward. Your shocking naivete, enabled by your obious (and oblivious) privilege, makes you the modern-day equivalent of a Nazi sympathizer from 1939. I hope you rot in hell.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by cartman

Papers please for thee, not for me

It's actually the other way around. I'm willing to provide papers and undergo the inconvenience.

[JPhillips]

Go look at Miller's thoughts on de-naturalization. Or Vance talking about legal status doesn't mean they should be here. Or Trump talking about re-migration.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

"some inconvenience"

No, I do not agree to disagree. You're a trash human being, Edward. Your shocking naivete, enabled by your obious (and oblivious) privilege, makes you the modern-day equivalent of a Nazi sympathizer from 1939. I hope you rot in hell.

Okay then, that's very progressive of you. Just ignore me until 4-5 years when we see where we are on the bet.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nope. That only happens when the driver cops an attitude, doesn't follow orders, start spouting sovcit BS etc.

Using my example of a car stop ...

Cop: you were driving erratically. Provide license/proof of citizenship, registration and insurance
Perp: I'm sorry, I don't have license/proof of citizenship. Here's the registration and insurance
Cop: okay, your name and birthdate
Perp: my name is X and birth date is Y
Cop: (goes and checks database, in addition to registration and birthdate)
Cop: okay, looks good. Here's a citation for not providing your ID

or

Cop: you are not in the database. Here's a summons to appear on X date with the proper Id

Simple.

This has nothing in common with what Trump has said. He's calling for camps and mass detentions on day one.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Go look at Miller's thoughts on de-naturalization. Or Vance talking about legal status doesn't mean they should be here. Or Trump talking about re-migration.

I would be interested in reading more. Can you provide some links?

As stated previously, I do believe the rights of some groups will be infringed. But getting back to your original concern re: your adult, foreign born, legally naturalized daughter, not so much.

On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is when most/all legal naturalized citizens need to worry about being imprisoned, tossed out of the country, rights removed etc. IMO we are at a 2-3.

The 2-3 is for ... I can definitely see where Trump is "infringing on the rights" (debatable) on some legal/pending immigrants like Dreamers; there may be a fight on foreign student pro-Palestinian demonstrators kicked out; there may be a fight on temporary asylum foreigners; there may be a fight on some Permanent Residents from undesirable countries etc.

A 10 is when most/all legally adopted foreign kids are threatened. A 9 or 10 is when most/all legal, naturalized citizens are threatened. But that won't happen because they can vote.

So yeah, no doubt there'll be fights and SCOTUS will rule on what is legal or not. Just like what Trump wanted to do was challenged, just like what Joe wanted to do was challenged. But no, there is no way in hell a legally adopted foreign kid are tossed out unless there is a special unique situation (e.g. parents are illegal?).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This has nothing in common with what Trump has said. He's calling for camps and mass detentions on day one.

That was a scenario that I tossed out because you had not tossed out a scenario specific to your daughter.

Please provide a scenario that you believe your daughter may encounter that will take away her rights because some cop will think she is illegal?

[thesloppy]

What inconveniences you enough about illegal immigration that you're willing to stomach the thought of checkpoints and camps? Is it their proclivity towards committing less crime? The taxation without representation? Their strain on our nation's lowest personal tax rates ever? Providing cheap labor for the service industries & lower prices for you?

[JPhillips]

You've already provided a scenario where she is detained for an undetermined amount of time. That's pretty fucking bad given that she's done nothing wrong.