Forks Over Knives (Or, the Western diet vs. a plant-based diet)

[Ksyrup]

Damn Subby, are we almost the same person?

Tomorrow I turn 53. About 5 years ago, I hit just over 200 pounds and started losing. Did pretty well, got down to mid-160s. And I started running consistently, at least 4-6 times a week. I evened out in about the mid-170s, but got complacent and thought I could out-run my bad eating habits. I hit 187 at the end of 2023 and decided I needed to do something. So I started intermittent fasting. I rarely eat after 6pm, but I also rarely eat before 1pm. It's been an amazing revelation.

I originally planned to get down to about 170, so I was looking to lose about 15-20 pounds. But the weight just kept coming off. I got into the mid-160s, then under 160, then 155 - which is a weight I've only hit once since high school - and I'm now at 150. My waste size went from about 36 to 30. I'm in the process of buying my 3rd set of clothes this summer.

I never thought in my wildest dreams I could weigh this little. I'm training for a half marathon in October (I ran one in the November after I turned 50 three years ago). IF has made it so easy to eat healthy but also allow myself to indulge a little without going overboard. And when I've gone on vacation, stopped IF, and gained several pounds, I've easily lost whatever I gained within 2-3 weeks.

[RainMaker]

Are you guys counting your calories? Curious what you try to stay around. I never know for sure what a good amount is but usually try to stick to 2000 when cutting.

[Ksyrup]

Nope. Never. The only thing I do to track my intermittent fasting is a note on my phone where I record the times when I start eating and end eating every day. And really, I don't need to do it anymore, but I do it because it's part of a successful routine and it keeps it top of mind when I force myself to record the times.

[Brian Swartz]

Calories are a person-to-person thing. For me, I've found that if eat healthy, I'm never going to eat so much that it's a problem. My issue at least is always eating crap and then lying to myself about how much crap I've actually eaten. And then I remember 'oh ... yeah there was that thing ... and that other meal ... and ... wow you've lapsed back into sucking at this'.

Well done to KSyrup and Subby. I'm earlier into my latest run at being healthier, so I don't have a victory story to tell yet.

Originally Posted by Subby

let's face it, I'm a 53 year-old man and if it hasn't happened yet, it is never going to happen.

Nah, it's still very possible. People have made permanent changes at that age or older.

[Ksyrup]

I swear I'm not a Subby Stalker (sounds like a 90s alt-rock band) but Fridays are my official weigh-in days and this morning I weighed in at... 149. This after having 2 pieces of cake yesterday. The office bought me a cake and we all had a small piece, then I brought the rest home and had a rather large slice at 6pm. Rest of the day, though, all I ate was a large salad with shrimp, banana, grapes and orange for lunch, a couple small items from our company's afternoon 'tea time' spread (finger sandwiches and a mini pot pie), then for dinner at 5:15 we had leftovers so I made a toasted sub sandwich (way better than anything I could get at a place like WaWa's ) and a bowl of homemade cole slaw.

Today we're going to a steakhouse for dinner with more cake, but I've also got a 70 minute run during lunch.

[flere-imsaho]

Great work, guys - so proud of both of you!

[Ksyrup]

So fast-forward about 3.5 weeks since my laast posts, and I'm now down to about 145. I decided to implement Phase 3 of my IF plan - expanding my eating window in hopes of allowing myself more time to eat more food so I can stop losing weight. Now, instead of pushing off lunch as long as I can and usually eating at 1pm at earliest and sometimes closer to 2pm or even later, I'm making myself eat between noon and 12:30. I'm also allowing myself to push dinner a bit later or have a small snack after dinner before I shut it down. So from a 4-5 hour window, I'm hoping to push it out to 5.5-7 hours.

The issue really isn't starving myself - and I'm not hungry at all - it's more that my running/workout routine is so aggressive right now. This past week, I ran 43.5 miles. Turns out it's pretty easy to lose weight that way.

My wife has not been unsupportive, but she definitely doesn't understand or like this lifestyle, keeps telling me she hopes I'm not getting anorexic, and commenting that she can see bones on me she's never seen. Which...yeah, that's how it works when you've shed so much fat. I don't know how accurate my scale is, but it's saying I'm at 11% body fat. When I started in January, I was at 26% (again, at the mercy of the scale's accuracy).

I did make one faux pas with her that I was intentionally trying to avoid, but she found out my exact weight on Friday. I'd been hiding it from her ever since I hit the 150s. She saw the number on my phone app after I did my official Friday morning weigh-in. She was horrified/pissed that I weigh about 1 pound more than her. I knew that would be the reaction, and I get it, but (a) she's recovering from hip surgery as part of a larger years-long battle with multiple injuries that have kept her from consistently exercising, and (b) she was never athletic to begin with, so she not only has current physical issues but she really would never be interested in getting herself this fit, even if healthy.

Anyway, this probably crosses over into the fitness/Peloton thread, but depending on how my HM goes in mid-October, I'm seriously looking at signing up for a marathon in 2025. Preferably something local and no later than June, as I have no interest in running in heat and/or humidity. Either that, or pushing it off until fall of 2025. We'll see.

[Kodos]

That’s impressive! I’m trying this make a push at losing weight in a similar manner. I’ve noticed that people who aren’t trying to get more fit can almost get offended when you change your patterns to try to do better. I started going to bed between 10-10:30 pm instead of 11:15ish to allow me to get up and work out in the morning. My family reacted like I’m insane.

[cuervo72]

I would...look very odd at 145, I think. When I got to about 180 while doing the low-carb thing around '06 my wife even was like "yeah, that's probably enough."

Of course after I stopped doing the low-carb diet -- which took me from 235 to 180 -- I started putting the weight back on. That was in 2012. A steady climb got me to the shock point at the doctor this February -- 274. I knew I was too heavy, but YIKES. Also my BP, which had always been in the normal range, was in a definite danger zone. Time to do something.

So far that hasn't been much -- mostly cutting out most of the pizza, eating fewer snacks and deserts, and cooking more beans in the Instant Pot. And walking. Started out small, but now I'm at the point on weekends where I figure "ah, let's just wander around" and I've logged a couple of walks in the 7-8 mile range. Putting the weight on was a slow process, I'm content to have taking it off be a gradual one too. I was at 253 on the home scale the other day, so moving in the right direction.

[Kodos]

Gradual is good. Nice work, cuervo!

[cuervo72]

Thanks! I just have to make sure I stick with the walking part once it starts to get colder and the days get shorter. My weekday walks I prefer to take after work, which will be increasingly difficult with the shortening days. Getting my butt out of bed earlier to do it before work may be difficult.

[Ksyrup]

I don't think I've been 145 since maybe beginning of high school or earlier. It does look odd - but only because I haven't been there before (least amount of weight my wife has ever seen me at is probably upper 150s 20 years ago). I'm much, much leaner. I actually have the outlines of a "1-pack" - I don't expect a 6-pack but I've definitely got the outer edges of abs on both sides. That's never happened, even when I was younger and had gotten into the 160s or 170s (which is where most of my previous efforts to slim down had concluded).

But yeah, I don't need to lose any more weight, and maybe gaining a bit is where I will eventually settle. I guess we'll see. I'm most concerned with the next several months - my HM is mid-October, which unfortunately is 2 weeks before Halloween, the unofficial start of Holiday Eating Season. I plan to be extra-vigilant during that time while still allowing myself to indulge a bit. That's one of the reasons I'm thinking about adding a spring marathon goal, to keep myself focused.

One thing that's helped so far is that by restricting my eating window, while I'm consciously eating better, I'm also not cutting out anything. We've had multiple birthdays, 2 long vacations, pizza, hamburgers, big steak dinners, fried chicken, etc., and still I've lost weight and reduced my body fat. When I've gained, it's come right off within a couple of weeks. So it's working really well, but at this point, almost too well.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I’ve noticed that people who aren’t trying to get more fit can almost get offended when you change your patterns to try to do better. I started going to bed between 10-10:30 pm instead of 11:15ish to allow me to get up and work out in the morning. My family reacted like I’m insane.

I think that varies based on the people. Those around me basically shrug about such things. Neighbors have been anywhere from indifferent to courteous to openly supportive about my morning walks.

[GrantDawg]

I tried the Tik Tok trend of making a dense bean salad for meal prep yesterday. Had some for lunch, and it is pretty good. I didn't put any meat in, just kidney and cannellini beans and a bunch of veggies.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Ksyrup]

Ha, I just made my first bean salad but I'm not on TikTok. 3 bean salad with veggies and a homemade dressing. I decided to try a bean salad because I've been making a lot of slaw and didn't want to get sick of it. I found a recipe for a slaw dressing using Greek yogurt as a base and then I've been buying a bag of pre-packaged broccolini slaw and a bag of different kinds of pre-packaged slaw and mixing them together. It's been great but I decided to try a bean salad for something different.

[cuervo72]

Ohh, there was a place around the corner from where my son is living now that had a terrific German bean salad:

Krüg Corner Pub by People’s – People Brew

(Easier to paste the link rather than copy/type ingredients on the phone)

Hope they reopen sometime.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I would...look very odd at 145, I think.

I wouldn't look like much of anything at that weight, I'd be glazed over and consistently unconscious.

[Ksyrup]

The power of Google eavesdropping on my conversations - I was recommended an article about thr viral TikTok dense bean salad recipes this morning. Mine is a Greek salad with feta and olives among other vegetables.

[Subby]

Very cool to read all of this.

I basically took the second half of August and beginning of September off - lots of vacations and birthdays, nagging hip injury, etc.. But now I am back and it's nice to have the framework of something that works. I.F. is very easy to get back into, so I am again eating after 10am (usually later) and before (usually much before) 8pm. No sweets, wine once per week, and that's pretty much it.

Here is my current daily eating rotation:

Breakfast: Toasted Bagel with two fried eggs, slice of cheddar cheese, jalapenos. Metric fuckton of coffee.

Lunch: Perfect Bar

Snack 1: Apple

Snack 2: Clif Bar

Dinner: One big serving of whatever we are having

As the weight starts coming off again I will probably add a protein shake after my runs of 6+ miles, but everything above is around 2k calories (my daily burn of exercise plus basal metabolic rate is around 2600 calories).

I think I mentioned earlier that I qualified for the 2025 Boston Marathon, and registration opened yesterday. The cost to run is $250, ok not great, but three nights in a hotel downtown is basically $2,000. I've stayed in Cambridge the other two times I've run it and decided I am not doing it again unless I can stay somewhere close to the finish. So probably not running it next year and will just qualify down the road when I'm not paying for college+.

So long story short, like Ksyrup I am looking for a spring marathon. Goal is to get down to 140s weight wise (back in the 160s for now) and win my age group.

[Ksyrup]

I'm just looking to survive, lol!

So I weighed 144.5 on Friday, ate pretty well all weekend and Monday, but ran about 30 miles Friday - Monday. So I stepped on the scale this morning and ... 143.1.

I think I'm going to have to seriously up my calorie intake game.

[Brian Swartz]

Thinking about a marathon would be hazardous to my health I think. I'd probably pull several muscles/ligaments/tendons in the process of imagining locomoting that far at once.

[Ksyrup]

99% of my runs are on a treadmill. But as I did 3 years ago, with a HM coming up, I'm doing 4-6 outdoor runs to get used to being outside. I don't race much, but I know the first rule of racing is - don't do something for the first time on race day.

Anyway, the weather was beautiful this weekend so I decided to run 10K around my neighborhood on Saturday, at recovery pace (since Sunday was a near-2 hour run on the treadmill), purposely trying to keep my heart rate at around 77% of max (which studies have shown is the threshold you should do about 80% of your training at). And to my surprise, it was a piece of cake. I ran an average 9:40 mile with an average HR for the entire run of 130. I hardly made it to light breathing, and most of the time I had to consciously force myself to slow down to get my HR below the threshold. I did push it a couple of times and especially at the end, just to feel good about finishing strong.

Now, 10K is a long, LONG way from 42K, but I was thinking I would shoot for a marathon pace of 10 minutes/mile, and I felt pretty pumped about being able to run 10K under that pace and it hardly fazing me. So that really got me thinking I could actually do a marathon shooting for under a 4:30 total time, maybe an outside goal of 4 hours if I prepped well enough. My issue is living in central KY and the rolling hills. Ideally, I'd like something flat-ish for a first marathon. That might mean travelling a few hours, I don't know.

First things first... the HM in about 4 weeks.

[Subby]

Marathon training can be as simple as you want it to be, really. You should ideally be doing a long run (at marathon pace plus 45 seconds), a high quality run (track workout or hill repeats), and then just ez recovery runs of varying distances. Increase your overall mileage by 5 miles per week. Give yourself about 4 months of training, taper the last two weeks (this is the hardest part).


Let us know how the half marathon goes!

[Ksyrup]

Thanks. HM is this Sunday. I've already been researching marathon training plans and signed up for a marathon in Cincinnati on Derby weekend (the Flying Pig), and what you describe sounds very similar to the Hal Higdon training plans. I'm looking at the Intermediate 1 plan, just because the Novice plans seem too light on mileage based on what I already run.

One of the criticisms of the HH plans is that they are primarily focused on finishing, not running a PB, so there is no speedwork just endurance, but seeing as though this will be marathon #1, I'm fine with that. Since I'm shooting for a May marathon and about to finish my HM training/race, my plan is to take the next 6-8 weeks to focus on strength/speed workouts on my own and then start the marathon training in mid-December. I need to build in a couple of off-weeks and interruptions in training for a mid-late February vacation and a couple of other weekends out of town, so I've started sketching out what my training schedule will look like to convert an 18 week plan into about 20-21 weeks. I've even found a HM in early March that is 5 minutes from my house that will fit perfectly into my training schedule.

First things first, though - trying to better my HM time of 1:53:40 from 3 years ago. I honestly have no idea how it's going to go.

[Ksyrup]

So, a couple of things to report to the group today. Although this is a diet/nutrition thread, I'm gonna also post a bit more about my running since we don't really have a stand-alone fitness thread (I had been using the Peloton thread but figure this one could serve dual purposes).

On the nutrition/fitness side, we had a health fair at work on Thursday which gave me the opportunity to have my cholesterol and a few other items checked. I also have data points from June at my annual check-up and last September at this same health fair. I started IF in January.

September 2023:

Lbs: 185
Waist: 38
BMI: 27.5
BP: 112/82
Chol: 187
LDL: 104
HDL: 71
Tri: 60
Glu: 77

June 2024:

Lbs: 163
Waist: 35
BMI: 24.5
BP: 110/86
Chol: 171
LDL: 95
HDL: 67
Tri: 44
Glu: 79

October 2024:

Lbs: 145
Waist: 32
BMI: 21
BP: 118/82
Chol: 143
LDL: 40
HDL: 75
Tri: 143
Glu: 64

Consistently better numbers across the board. The only outlier is my triglycerides from last week's test, but I think I can expain that - with my HM coming up, I had been drastically ramping up my carb intake this past week (bagels, baked potatoes, etc.). A little googling suggests you can get high triglycerides with normal cholesterol if you have a high carb diet. So, that probably explains it - just a timing issue with my race today.

That brings me to item #2, my half marathon this morning. I weighed in at 142.7 this morning. Three years ago, a few months after turning 50, I decided to run a HM to see if I could do it, and to celebrate getting old and my fitness journey to that point. In May 2019, I hit 204 lbs and started getting serious about my diet and more consistently running/training. When I ran that HM in November 2021, I think I weighed around 170-174, somewhere in that range. So, about 30 pounds heavier than today, although 3 years younger! My goal was to finish in under 2 hours. I finished in 1:53:40, good for 3rd place in my age group (only 7 of us). Not bad.

Fast forward 3 years, and I decided to run another HM as I saw my weight plummet and fitness soar this past 9-10 months combining IF and ramping up my running and strength training. My goals this time were to: (1) absolutely beat my time from 2021 (I would have considered it a huge failure not to hit this goal), (2) beat that time by at least 2 minutes, and (3) outside/ideal goal, finish under 1:50.

Conditions were pretty damn great today, a little warmer than I would have liked at 62 degrees, but partly cloudy and breezy made up for it. I set my watch with a pacer goal of 8:30/mile, which would put me right on a 2+ minute improvement from 2021. I felt like my prep was right on point (as little real experience I have with race prep goes), and this morning I hit every pre-race schedule point in my prep within like a minute or two of what I planned. Bathroom even went well, lol - the one true wild card you never know about until the day of. The race was in a small horse farm community about 15 minutes north of where I live. The race was 2 out-and-backs from the downtown area through horse farm country. Absolutely beautiful. Somewhere around Mile 3, coming up a hill, we watched about 2 dozen horse being run, and as we crested the hill and came up close, they came back toward us and ran along the fence line in the opposite direction. So cool.

Race started at 7:50am. First mile I did slightly better than pace goal, somewhat dragged down/held back by a slow start getting through the crowd until it thinned out and I had some space. Miles 2-5, I was really feeling it, running between 8:02 and 8:13 miles. I was concerned about burning out early if I pushed the pace, but it didn't happen. Miles 6-8 I did under 8 minute pace. Miles 9 and 11 had some decent hills that "slowed" me to an 8:14 pace, but Mile 10 I ran under 8 minutes. Mile 12 included the last of the hills and I was able to recover to an 8:06, and then the last 1.1 miles, I ran at about 7:45 pace.

So, I blew away my pace goals. Funny enough, I confused myself with the pace/mile numbers and thought the 1:45 pace (8 minutes/mile) was my goal pace to get under a 1:50. It wasn't until I hit Mile 11 that I realized my 8:06 average pace didn't mean I was going to be on the edge of getting under 1:50 - it meant I was pretty damn close to 1:45. I wish I had known that sooner, lol. I ended up at 1:45:33, 8 minutes better than 2021. Placed 4th in my age group out of 16, but I wasn't close to top 3 - they ran a 1:31, 1:34 and 1:39.

A few things I learned:

1. I need to focus on strength training my legs. I knew it, but focused mostly on upper body thinking that running would do a lot of the strengthening of my legs. Well, today, my cardio out-worked my legs. I had more in the tank cardio-wise. My legs were good, but not as good as my cardio, and ultimately that held me back (even if I didn't realize how far ahead I was).

2. Treadmill training has been absolutely essential to the cardio and endurance I have to date, but I need to do more long runs outside to get used to the pounding on the legs. The treadmill has saved my legs, no doubt. But I need to feel 15+ miles on outside surfaces if I plan on running a marathon.

3. Nipple burn is a thing. I ended up with a Bloody Left Nipple (my new death metal band) and didn't even realize it until I got home. So I was likely running and walking around after the race with what looked like a gunshot through the heart and didn't know it. I always say, if you're going to be embarrassed, the best embarrassment is the one you're totally oblivious to and feel later when no one's around. So, I guess I aced that one, too...

All in all, a totally successful day. Sitting on my ass watching football for the rest of the day, and taking tomorrow off work as well because I can (floating holiday for Columbus Day).

[Edward64]

Congrats on your great progress! (Better than me, I’m jealous)

I lost about 10 pounds after a long backpacking trip. Then ate a bunch of crap after. Need to get back to counting calories and strength training.

[Ghost Econ]

So I had a health incident Saturday night that is still resolving itself. Nothing major or life threatening, but more just pain and annoyance. It laid me up for about 2 full days and I'm still nowhere close to 100%. But it's really made me realize how much of my eating is just due to boredom and routine.

Since Saturday night I've lost about 10 pounds and it's not water weight because I'm staying well hydrated. I've basically tried to only eat when I'm hungry and for the time being cut out processed foods and sugary drinks. I noticed I ate yesterday at lunch and almost immediately had an upset stomach like I had previously just gotten used to. I realized I wasn't actually hungry at the time, but I just ate because I thought I was supposed to.

I'd like to think I can keep that up when the pain subsides and my life gets back to normal. But it really is surprising how just getting out of negative routines can affect your body so quickly.

[Ksyrup]

Glad to hear things seem to be working out. And I agree about eating for boredom and routine, and also subconsiously for stress in my case.

IF has changed my life, I swear. It's only been 10 months and we'll see if I can keep it up, and I know for some people, they just can't handle hunger pangs and sometimes feel faint/less energetic, but for me, it really only took me a couple of weeks to adjust to a 7-8 hour eating window which I was able to quickly whittle down to about 3-5 hours for a long part of this year. Now, I'm in the process of extending my window to make myself eat more.

I can't really explain why it's so different or easier to follow than a usual diet that's focused more on the foods you eat, but I feel like cutting out breakfast and a couple of snacking times during the day has allowed me to cut back on sugar/carb intake (cereals, processed snacks, etc.) and focus on mainly nutrient-dense calories. But, at the same time, it's also allowed me to not restrict my diet in any way - I eat burgers, wings, pizza, an occasional dessert, etc. But instead of those things being heaped on top of a normal calorie intake, they are "filling in the gaps" so to speak of a lower calorie diet, so they aren't creating an excess of fat and calories in my diet.

As far as regimen, I really can't explain why I'm able to follow it so well. Maybe because it's a simple, bright-line rule - I record the time I start and end eating every day. I don't even need it anymore, but I still do it because it drives home, "here's your one rule to keep following."

Clean fasting has allowed me to completely cut any kind of sugar or sugar substitute from my diet for 16-20 hours a day. During that time, I don't eat anything, and only drink water and plain tea. So even if I indulge in a sugary treat during my eating window, it's naturally limited. I didn't eat a sugary cereal, followed by a sugary processed mid-morning snack, with more processed/carby/sugary food in the afternoon, and then top it off with ice cream at night. If I have ice cream one night (or evening/late afternoon, really), that's all I've had for the day.

According to my at-home scale, my body fat was around 25% when I started IF. It's now under 12%. Now, IF has not done all of the work. I'm eating better during my eating window, and I'm also doing a lot of running and strength training. But my metabolism is off the charts crazy right now, to the point where I'm having to force myself to eat more to keep weight on. I feel like that's a good problem to have (or at least, better than the alternative).

We're about to start the holiday eating season and with winter coming on, the natural inclination to eat more, fattier foods is going to kick in. I'm interested to watch my self-experiment and see what happens. I think I can manage, and also having running goals that I need to reach for the spring should keep me focused (if I'm training for a marathon all winter, I don't have time to slack even if I want to). But we'll see. The jury's still out. As I told everyone at work when we had our health fair, "Yeah, I've done really well but let's see what I look like at this fair 12 months from now." Because that's the real test.

[Brian Swartz]

Just to add on, weight loss like that can still be water weight even if you are well hydrated. There are natural fluctuations in water weight that happen even under the best of times and with consistent fluid intake. Losing 10 pounds of fat in that time period is quite likely not possible; there's a limit in how quickly your body will burn it. It's probably a combination of water weight and 'other'.

The boredom thing is definitely common. My best thoughts on that are just become a student of yourself and find other ways to deal with that boredom. I'm a stress eater by nature and have been able to train myself recently to stop doing that; instead of 'rewarding' myself - it's actually a punishment, perversely - with comfort food after a tough day or similar, I've learned to embrace the pain basically and think about what is best for future me. Which is not - that sucked, now let's make it worse by eating a bunch of unhealthy garbage. There have been a number of times when I really, really hated admitting to myself that this was actually the choice, but following through it has made a big difference.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Just to add on, weight loss like that can still be water weight even if you are well hydrated. There are natural fluctuations in water weight that happen even under the best of times and with consistent fluid intake. Losing 10 pounds of fat in that time period is quite likely not possible; there's a limit in how quickly your body will burn it. It's probably a combination of water weight and 'other'.

I agree with you here. If he was eating a bunch of junk food then it's possible that he consumed a lot more sodium than normal. That will cause your body to retain water.