POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Frakking AZ and NV are still not called.

I know it doesn't matter now but they really need to reform whatever is stopping them from finishing the count.

California only has 60% counted. Most people don't notice because it's one-sided presidentially. I don't think we have an inherent right to rapid results, only accurate ones. It's worth noting that none of the states are official yet, 'calling' is just media outlets following a confidence interval.

[BYU 14]

AZ is not called so we can be 145% sure that Kari Lake lost so we don't have to hear her bullshit for months.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You all moved as far right as a Democratic candidate ever has and got trounced. Maybe just nominate Trump next time instead of running on his policies.

lol

I'll give you right of Biden and maybe right of 2008 Obama, although that's debatable, but otherwise absolutely not.

The party is about to return to the 1990s, so you'll get to see how much further left they were.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

California only has 60% counted. Most people don't notice because it's one-sided presidentially. I don't think we have an inherent right to rapid results, only accurate ones. It's worth noting that none of the states are official yet, 'calling' is just media outlets following a confidence interval.

This. Everyone on the right wants to brag about FL, but they have almost two weeks between election day and certification. They can only make super quick calls when the margin of victory isn't razor thin. If you have to wait for mail and provisional ballots to know the winner it's going to take time.

[Brian Swartz]

Potentially unpopular opinion: I think most if not all of the comparisons to 2020, while natural, are misplaced. COVID was a unique situation and emergency. Extrapolating those trends to elections afterwards is not reasonable, because some people motivated by that to vote are not going to behave the same way when there's nothing they see as a crisis of the same level of urgency.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

It is because they don't pay attention enough to know that. In an ideal world people would actually educate themselves, weigh the issues, and make reasonable and rational decisions. But many of the people we are talking about work hard and just scrape by. They are getting most their news third hand from their family, friends and co-workers. Or maybe the Joe Rogan podcast while driving to work.

I I think this line of thinking is really dangerous to Dems. It comes off condescendingly, and may make people in their college educated echo chambers feel morally superior, but end of the day 57% of the electorate doesn't have college degrees so you're drawing dead the more you make that education cut off the dividing line. It's not just a male thing either, white women who never went to college make up 20% of the electorate and went 65/33 Trump. I even disagree with Bernie when he says the Dems have abandoned "the working class" or "blue collar workers" with their policies but I think they 100% have with their rhetoric. There are racist sexist idiots out there but it's not 100% of Trump voters this cycle, painting every one with that brush is just hardening their support and making them less likelt to flip down the line.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

lol

I'll give you right of Biden and maybe right of 2008 Obama, although that's debatable, but otherwise absolutely not.

The party is about to return to the 1990s, so you'll get to see how much further left they were.

Obama literally ran against Dick Cheney's policies. Kamala was touring with Liz Cheney and talking about building the wall.

Even Biden is wrong. He kind of ran a populist left campaign talking about a green new deal, student loan forgiveness, free pre-K, and being a safe place for asylum seekers.

You have to go back to 96 Clinton to find a campaign that was as far to the right as hers.

[JPhillips]

Obama ran as a guy above partisanship who could bring everyone together. He was against the Iraq war, but otherwise he was all about overcoming partisan debates and finding solutions everyone could accept. He certainly wasn't running a Bernie like campaign.

[JPhillips]

dola

It's just amazing that RFK Jr., who four years ago literally could not have gotten a single GOP confirmation vote, will now sail through with the GOP voting in lockstep for him. There really is nothing important to the GOP now other than loyalty to Trump.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I I think this line of thinking is really dangerous to Dems. It comes off condescendingly, and may make people in their college educated echo chambers feel morally superior, but end of the day 57% of the electorate doesn't have college degrees so you're drawing dead the more you make that education cut off the dividing line. It's not just a male thing either, white women who never went to college make up 20% of the electorate and went 65/33 Trump. I even disagree with Bernie when he says the Dems have abandoned "the working class" or "blue collar workers" with their policies but I think they 100% have with their rhetoric. There are racist sexist idiots out there but it's not 100% of Trump voters this cycle, painting every one with that brush is just hardening their support and making them less likelt to flip down the line.

I am sorry if you read it that way, and yes if the Democrats think that the majority of the voters are this way like you seem to be suggesting I meant then they would be in trouble. I was not in any way suggesting that the majority of anyone fits this description. There are people that have voted both parties that fit what I described, as much as there college educated and people that didn't finish middle school. I am describing people who do not care about politics, and there are a sizable number of them. I work with and meet people who fit what I described every day. It is not that can't educate themselves on the issues, it is they don't particularly want to. I mentioned my boss before. He a smart guy, and runs a business. He isn't spending his time watching Fox News, or reading political blogs. He couldn't name his congressman right now and he just voted for him. Most of his political views comes from his buddies that he camps with. He is the person that once said to me "I don't know what socialism is, but I don't want it." His vote counts as much as yours does.
If you don't believe there are people like this, there are a good number of people still to this day believe that schools installed kitty litter boxes in classroom for students who identify as a cat. And some of them vote.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I I think this line of thinking is really dangerous to Dems. It comes off condescendingly, and may make people in their college educated echo chambers feel morally superior, but end of the day 57% of the electorate doesn't have college degrees so you're drawing dead the more you make that education cut off the dividing line. It's not just a male thing either, white women who never went to college make up 20% of the electorate and went 65/33 Trump. I even disagree with Bernie when he says the Dems have abandoned "the working class" or "blue collar workers" with their policies but I think they 100% have with their rhetoric. There are racist sexist idiots out there but it's not 100% of Trump voters this cycle, painting every one with that brush is just hardening their support and making them less likelt to flip down the line.

I agree with what you are saying in theory. I ask this as a genuine question for everyone.

Why is it that painting all Trump supporters in a negative light does not work for the left while painting all Harris supporters in a negative light is at the very least effective for the right? Why does it feel more harsh for Dems to say it about the Repubs than it does for the Repubs to do the same to the Dems? Why does "Not all..." only seem to work for the right?

I don't mean this as an attempt to both sides the discourse either. Maybe I am wrong and there are Republican voices saying "Not all Dem..." to other Republicans. I just don't hear them.

[Ghost Econ]

Because we're punching down on the white trash instead of helping them up, even though the specifically refuse the help that's been offered and would rather just wait for a lottery and blame others for their shit existence while believing they can get away with being pieces of shit because they go to church.

Or that was just sarcasm... I don't know...

[RainMaker]

I don't really understand the DEI talk. She was selected to be the Vice President. They won. It worked. Maybe you could argue there was someone who would have helped them win by more but her resume is pretty good for a VP candidate. She was a Senator from the most populous state. And it helped she stood for nothing and would be malleable on the issues.

People are mixing that up with her being the candidate for President. That's Joe Biden and the party's fault. She was never supposed to be the nominee as she's not a good campaigner. It was basically thrust on to her because there were no other options. She ran a terrible campaign but she was also thrown into a campaign in freefall and had to use Biden's disastrous team for the campaign instead of her own people. And it sure seems like part of the deal to get Biden to step aside is she wouldn't criticize him which crushed her too.

Blaming her or some DEI nonsense is just some racist excuse for the party completely fucking this up.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Obama ran as a guy above partisanship who could bring everyone together. He was against the Iraq war, but otherwise he was all about overcoming partisan debates and finding solutions everyone could accept. He certainly wasn't running a Bernie like campaign.

He literally ran on a public health insurance option! Iraq was one of the primary issues along with the financial crisis in which he called for more regulation. Yeah he wasn't full on Bernie and he didn't accomplish much, but he did actually run on a pretty progressive platform if you look through it. This re-writing of history is not helping you or the party.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't really understand the DEI talk. She was selected to be the Vice President. They won. It worked. Maybe you could argue there was someone who would have helped them win by more but her resume is pretty good for a VP candidate. She was a Senator from the most populous state. And it helped she stood for nothing and would be malleable on the issues.

People are mixing that up with her being the candidate for President. That's Joe Biden and the party's fault. She was never supposed to be the nominee as she's not a good campaigner. It was basically thrust on to her because there were no other options. She ran a terrible campaign but she was also thrown into a campaign in freefall and had to use Biden's disastrous team for the campaign instead of her own people. And it sure seems like part of the deal to get Biden to step aside is she wouldn't criticize him which crushed her too.

Blaming her or some DEI nonsense is just some racist excuse for the party completely fucking this up.

The main reason is because back when he was picking a running mate he didn't just say I'm picking Kamala because she is the most qualified. He led up to the announcement by talking about picking a minority and a woman. If he had just narrowed it down and picked her and said she was the most qualified it would be alot harder for it to stick, but at the time he wouldn't shut up about only considering minorities and women.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

The main reason is because back when he was picking a running mate he didn't just say I'm picking Kamala because she is the most qualified. He led up to the announcement by talking about picking a minority and a woman. If he had just narrowed it down and picked her and said she was the most qualified it would be alot harder for it to stick, but at the time he wouldn't shut up about only considering minorities and women.

So it's just DEI when you say the quiet part out loud? I thought everyone kind of understood the deal with picking a VP.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So it's just DEI when you say the quiet part out loud? I thought everyone kind of understood the deal with picking a VP.

I don’t think your average uneducated voter understands that at all.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't really understand the DEI talk.

Biden explicitly said he was choosing a woman to be his running mate. That's where the DEI talk comes in.

[RainMaker]

But why is it an issue now? I get not saying the quiet part out loud but how is that at all related to anything going on right now?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He literally ran on a public health insurance option! Iraq was one of the primary issues along with the financial crisis in which he called for more regulation. Yeah he wasn't full on Bernie and he didn't accomplish much, but he did actually run on a pretty progressive platform if you look through it. This re-writing of history is not helping you or the party.

His healthcare plan was to the right of Clinton and specifically based on Romney's plan in MA.

But even so, Harris supports the ACA and wanted to expand upon it. She's to the left of Obama there.

[RainMaker]

That's just not true. The public option was heavily campaigned on in 2008. It was sort of supported by Clinton in 2016 and definitely supported by Biden in 2020. Harris cut it from her campaign when she got the nomination. Her plan was some convoluted tax credits.

Like I'm sorry your choice lost and your plan failed. But the lady who campaigned with the Cheneys, bragged about building a wall, talked up fracking, wars, and her gun was not running a campaign on the left like you think. You were alive in 2008 and I would hope remember what the opinion of many of those topics was (especially wars).

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But why is it an issue now? I get not saying the quiet part out loud but how is that at all related to anything going on right now?

It was just low hanging fruit. It plays to the base. They remember it and believe it because they all laughed at it four years ago.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's just not true. The public option was heavily campaigned on in 2008. It was sort of supported by Clinton in 2016 and definitely supported by Biden in 2020. Harris cut it from her campaign when she got the nomination. Her plan was some convoluted tax credits.

Like I'm sorry your choice lost and your plan failed. But the lady who campaigned with the Cheneys, bragged about building a wall, talked up fracking, wars, and her gun was not running a campaign on the left like you think. You were alive in 2008 and I would hope remember what the opinion of many of those topics was (especially wars).

Obama ran to the right of Clinton on healthcare. Obama was anti-Iraq, but wanted to send more troops to Afghanistan. He certainly wasn't anti-all wars.

Not seeing home health care coverage as an expansion of healthcare is just not seeing the obvious benefit of that for millions of Americans.

[RainMaker]

SHE RAN A CAMPAIGN NEXT TO THE LADY WHO PROPPED UP THE BIRTHER CONSPIRACY. Holy shit no wonder you guys always lose.

[JPhillips]

So you're talking vibes rather than policy? So all of your previous complaints about policy don't really matter?