POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Remind me again about that time Biden said he wants to end birthright citizenship and deport actual US citizens.

Trump wants to end one aspect of birthright citizenship. He'll keep the other part where at least one parent is a citizen or PR. I like this idea but admittedly, it needs to go through the courts.

Regarding deporting actual US citizens, provide a source for this? What I've read, it's de-naturalization for those that got citizenship under fraudulent circumstances, and that de-naturalization has been happening pre-2016. There may be something new that I don't know about but for my source, see below.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Trump's Immigration Reform

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Trump wants to end one aspect of birthright citizenship. He'll keep the other part where at least one parent is a citizen or PR. I like this idea but admittedly, it needs to go through the courts.

Regarding deporting actual US citizens, provide a source for this? What I've read, it's de-naturalization for those that got citizenship under fraudulent circumstances, and that de-naturalization has been happening pre-2016. There may be something new that I don't know about but for my source, see below.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Trump's Immigration Reform

Can you explain how you view the 14th ammendment in regard to birthright citizenship?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Can you explain how you view the 14th amendment in regard to birthright citizenship?

There is no doubt that 14th grants citizenship for babies born here. There is no qualification "if at least one parent is a citizen or PR".

But then the constitution/amendments is a living document (the majority of us here believe that don't we?) and subject to change. So, if we go through the legal process to change/amend the 14th, then I'm okay with it.

Why not change the constitution/amendments if the country/states deem it is in the country/states best interest? There's going to be a fight as opinions/interpretations differ for sure. So, go through the process that is provided by law.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

There is no doubt that 14th grants citizenship for babies born here. There is no qualification "if at least one parent is a citizen or PR".

But then the constitution/amendments is a living document (the majority of us here believe that don't we?) and subject to change. So, if we go through the legal process to change/amend the 14th, then I'm okay with it.

Why not change the constitution/amendments if the country/states deem it is in the country/states best interest? There's going to be a fight as opinions differ for sure. So, go through the process that is provided by law.

If we want to change an ammendment and enough states are on board with it, I'm down. My issue is using executive order to see if they've pushed SCOTUS far enough to the right to overturn over 150 years of clear and unambiguous precedent.

They can't say "shall not be infringed" is clear and at the same time try to move the goalposts on the 14th. The intent of the 14th is far clearer than the wording of the 2nd.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If we want to change an ammendment and enough states are on board with it, I'm down. My issue is using executive order to see if they've pushed SCOTUS far enough to the right to overturn over 150 years of clear and unambiguous precedent.

They can't say "shall not be infringed" is clear and at the same time try to move the goalposts on the 14th. The intent of the 14th is far clearer than the wording of the 2nd.

This is a fair concern. Most likely Trump will try to go for an executive order first, and then that'll be fought all the way to SCOTUS.

I'm not a constitutional scholar but am ultimately okay with what SCOTUS decides. That is also the "legal process". Let me update my original statement

So, if we go through the legal process to change/amend/successfully challenge the 14th, then I'm okay with it.

[JPhillips]

Akiva Cohen's takedown of Judge Ho's ridiculous invasion exception to the 14th is worth reading if you're on bluesky.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Akiva Cohen's takedown of Judge Ho's ridiculous invasion exception to the 14th is worth reading if you're on bluesky.

Glad you brought him up. Followed him on Twitter, but hadn't added him on Bluesky.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Akiva Cohen's takedown of Judge Ho's ridiculous invasion exception to the 14th is worth reading if you're on bluesky.

I was going to say they're just going to find a half-assed legal explanation to avoid the 14th amendment, go ahead with deporting anyone they want, and there's basically going to be no recourse against it.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I was going to say they're just going to find a half-assed legal explanation to avoid the 14th amendment, go ahead with deporting anyone they want, and there's basically going to be no recourse against it.

Look, the new bill "acknowledges" the 14th amendment, what more do you want???

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I was going to say they're just going to find a half-assed legal explanation to avoid the 14th amendment, go ahead with deporting anyone they want, and there's basically going to be no recourse against it.

Long as they deport me to Denmark I'm good.

[GrantDawg]

I will claim to be a part of your family if they will deport me there with you.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I will claim to be a part of your family if they will deport me there with you.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

No problem brother

[RainMaker]

Well done

Liz Cheney Was an Electoral Fiasco for Kamala Harris | The Nation

[flere-imsaho]

I found this in the wikipedia write-up of the 1984 election, and while it may or may not be 100% correct (although, having been alive in 1984, it feels correct), it really struck me:

Psephologists attributed a factor of the Republican victory to "Reagan Democrats", millions of Democrats who voted for Reagan, as in 1980. They characterized such Reagan Democrats as southern whites and northern blue-collar workers who voted for Reagan because they credited him with the economic recovery, saw him as strong on national security issues, and perceived the Democrats as supporting the poor and minorities at the expense of the middle class. The Democratic National Committee commissioned a study after the election that came to these conclusions, but destroyed all copies of the final report, afraid that it would offend the party's key voters.

[NobodyHere]

Psephologists

I learned a new word today!

[JPhillips]

Didn't move many voters is far different than an electoral fiasco.

Again, Harris got more votes than Biden in the five eastern/midwestern battlegrounds. Trump's plan to mobilize low propensity voters worked. Lots of people came out to vote for him, and in many cases, only him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Didn't move many voters is far different than an electoral fiasco.

Again, Harris got more votes than Biden in the five eastern/midwestern battlegrounds. Trump's plan to mobilize low propensity voters worked. Lots of people came out to vote for him, and in many cases, only him.

It is a fiasco when it hurt your standing with the base. Imagine if they hadn't spent a month targeting a non-existent demographic and focused on people who might actually vote for her.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

The "American Worker" needs to do better.

Fuck bailing them out on 2nd rate product, 5th rate service, and 20th rate pricing.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Long as they deport me to Denmark I'm good.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I will claim to be a part of your family if they will deport me there with you.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

No problem brother

Hate to tell you guys this but Danes aren't that welcoming anymore ...

Denmark’s tough stance on migrants plays well at home. In Brussels, it could be a different story. – POLITICO

Denmark — under Social Democrat Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen and her center-right predecessor Lars Løkke Rasmussen — has pursued some of the toughest immigration policies in Europe over recent years. Denmark’s policies were initially seen as extreme in countries such as the United Kingdom, Sweden and Germany but over recent years lawmakers in those states appear to have moved closer to Copenhagen’s line, and to some extent, followed its example.

Possibly forced assimilation

Children born to immigrants would be forced to assimilate into Danish society through mandated 25 hours of separation from their parents. One of these laws mandates forced integration of thousands of residents in these two dozen neighborhoods by demolishing housing blocks. Frederiksen has not only embraced these laws, she has pushed them forward.

And pro-tip, don't apply for asylum. Chance that may mean Rwanda or detention center somewhere remote.

In 2021, the country passed a law that could allow refugees arriving in Denmark to be moved to asylum centers in partner countries, such as Rwanda, a proposal which the European Commission criticized. It also looked hard at detaining asylum seekers on a remote island.

... Canada may be best?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It is a fiasco when it hurt your standing with the base. Imagine if they hadn't spent a month targeting a non-existent demographic and focused on people who might actually vote for her.

Again, she got more votes where it mattered than the last guy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Again, she got more votes where it mattered than the last guy.

I'd hope so since the population has increased quite a bit in 4 years.

[Edward64]

Graphic below is interesting to me. It's on "Reasons to not choose Kamala Harris" and some sort of "relative importance score". Also, includes breakdown by Black/Latino voters.

The link doesn't provide much background on who/how/when it was created. The top categories ring true to me but unsure about the nos. The lesser reasons are also insightful. Appreciate more info if anyone knows where this came from.

x.com

The evidence is clear; the two most potent issues against the Democratic nominee were inflation and immigration. The message that “Kamala Harris was too pro-Israel” ranks 23 out of 25 as a reason not to vote for the Democratic nominee. The far left will never let empirical reality get in the way of its Anti-Israel ideology.

The outcome of an election can easily become a Rorschach test on which we project our own ideological priors. In order to avoid substituting narrative for truth, we must go where the evidence takes us.

The evidence is clear; the two most potent issues against the Democratic… pic.twitter.com/NiYlRwVvcl

— Ritchie Torres (@RitchieTorres) November 11, 2024

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hate to tell you guys this but Danes aren't that welcoming anymore ...

Denmark’s tough stance on migrants plays well at home. In Brussels, it could be a different story. – POLITICO

Possibly forced assimilation


And pro-tip, don't apply for asylum. Chance that may mean Rwanda or detention center somewhere remote.



... Canada may be best?

It was a joke. I have potential routes through different countries if I choose to seek them out.

Again,professional white dude with money in the bank. I'm gonna be fine.

[HerRealName]

GOP, the ultimate beta, bitch party.

Troy Nehls (TX):

“There’s no question he’s the leader of our party. So now he’s got a mission statement of his mission and his goals and objectives, whatever that is. We need to embrace it. All of it. Every single word. If Donald Trump says jump three feet high and scratch your head, we all jump three feet high and scratch our heads and that’s it,”

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Edward64

... Canada may be best?

Canada is already preparing for a wave of refugees to go north.

Our "social capacity" for refugees has also expired. 3.2% annual growth for 2 years in a row, causing all kinds of issues with housing, jobs for youth (15% youth unemployment), etc have pretty much guaranteed that our Liberal government will be toppled next year.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Mota

Canada is already preparing for a wave of refugees to go north.

Our "social capacity" for refugees has also expired. 3.2% annual growth for 2 years in a row, causing all kinds of issues with housing, jobs for youth (15% youth unemployment), etc have pretty much guaranteed that our Liberal government will be toppled next year.

I'm thinking many of them will be white, fairly well educated, have money, will be working, and would qualify in the skills-based immigration questionnaire (I did that years ago and apparently, I was eligible to apply).

[GrantDawg]

Ireland would my chosen designation, if it were possible. Ireland, Scotland, and Wales 1-2-3.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Graphic below is interesting to me. It's on "Reasons to not choose Kamala Harris" and some sort of "relative importance score". Also, includes breakdown by Black/Latino voters.

The link doesn't provide much background on who/how/when it was created. The top categories ring true to me but unsure about the nos. The lesser reasons are also insightful. Appreciate more info if anyone knows where this came from.

x.com

The outcome of an election can easily become a Rorschach test on which we project our own ideological priors. In order to avoid substituting narrative for truth, we must go where the evidence takes us.

The evidence is clear; the two most potent issues against the Democratic… pic.twitter.com/NiYlRwVvcl

— Ritchie Torres (@RitchieTorres) November 11, 2024

Unironically posting a tweet from the most corrupt and bribed politician in Congress.

[Arles]

Just curious, but who are some people in the US congress that you like?

[RainMaker]

I don't like many but that guy literally works for Israel. Like he isn't giving unbiased critiques here if he's even the one posting that stuff.

[Ghost Econ]

The amusing thing is, the top 4 reasons they didn't vote for Harris actually occurred more when Trump was in office. It's almost like lying about shit is more effective than actually doing the shit you're lying about.

[JPhillips]

The top seven donors of disclosed campaign spending gave a combined 850 million to conservative candidates and PACs.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The top seven donors of disclosed campaign spending gave a combined 850 million to conservative candidates and PACs.

The working class/billionaire dichotomy is fascinating. It takes an entire media ecosystem (funded by billionaires) to prop up.

Of course the Democratic party's coziness with their own set of billionaires gives them cover too.

[Kodos]

It's almost like it'd be better to ban donations over $1,000 or something.

[RainMaker]

Shawn Fein wanted to campaign with them but they felt more comfortable with Mark Cuban and Liz Cheney.

[JPhillips]

I don't know if the shitstorm started with Citizens United, but it was a major inflection point.

[flere-imsaho]

It was heading that way anyway, but Citizens United really turbocharged the oligarch takeover of campaigns & elections:

[Edward64]

Good to see some soul searching within.

Interesting decision that Dems will have to figure out. Stay more progressive or move more towards the center. To stay within brand, it's the former. To win elections, I'm going to say the latter. Either way, tough decision.

Just a moment...

As they begin to dissect their collapse in the presidential election, some Democratic National Committee members are concluding that the party is too “woke,” too focused on identity politics and too out of touch with broad stretches of America.

Those existential concerns, according to interviews with more than two dozen DNC members, are shaping the earliest stages of the race for DNC chair and, in the absence of a formal party autopsy, blame-casting among members about the causes of Vice President Kamala Harris’ defeat.

“The progressive wing of the party has to recognize — we all have to recognize — the country’s not progressive, and not to the far left or the far right. They’re in the middle,” said Joseph Paolino Jr., DNC committeeman for Rhode Island. “I’m going to look for a chair who’s going to be talking to the center and who’s going to be for the guy who drives a truck back home at the end of the day.”

[flere-imsaho]

Identity politics needs to go, at least as a major focus in electioneering. Just to give a most basic example, non-Hispanic white without a college degree number ~38M, based on the latest census, while the total number of black people is ~41M. I'm going to guess those numbers favor the former over the latter in most current swing states.

Exit polling and things like AOC's asking people who voted for her and Trump are showing that it's pocketbook and immigration concerns, along with vibes (generally, how "fake" or "authentic" the candidate was) that moved the needle for the vast majority of voters, and definitely for low information voters.

Democrats have a way to electoral success by running on economic progressivism. It's that simple and it has been for ages. The fact that many voters can remember the recessions Trump, Bush II (twice!) and Bush I gave them should work in their favor.

Now, the counter-argument is that if you only do lip service or use weasel words for things like immigration and LGBTQ rights, you'll lose certain parts of your big tent. Well, it appears they were lost anyway, and at the cost of energizing a lot of folks who might have considered you if you focused on their pocketbook. Does that mean it's going to appear that Democrats are taking some groups in their big tent for granted? Yep. Winning is more important.