Ongoing pro/college basketball thread (2023-24)

[JonInMiddleGA]

The Atlanta Hawks, Boston Celtics and Brooklyn Nets agreed to a three-team deal Tuesday that saw the Celtics send center Kristaps Porzingis and a second-round pick to the Hawks, while Terance Mann and Atlanta's No. 22 pick headed to the Nets, and finally, Georges Niang and a second-rounder landed with the Celtics, sources told ESPN's Shams Charania. ... Brooklyn now has five selections in Wednesday's first round: Nos. 8, 19, 22, 26 and 27.

It's that last bit that started me wondering: anybody know off-hand what the most 1st round picks any team has actually used in one season is? (I mean that they kept, not draft-and-trade-immediately stuff)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's that last bit that started me wondering: anybody know off-hand what the most 1st round picks any team has actually used in one season is? (I mean that they kept, not draft-and-trade-immediately stuff)

The Steph Curry draft I think the Timberwolves had 4 picks in the 1st round. But I believe they traded Ty Lawson right away for a future 1st. Can't think of anyone else in memory who had 4 unless we go real far back.

[bhlloy]

They drafted 4 guards in a round that produced Harden, Curry, DeRozan, Teague and Holiday, and somehow managed to end up with none of them. Quite a feat.

[RainMaker]

The best one they drafted (Lawson) was also the one they traded. What an incredible fuckup.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which would still be less than the regular season minutes played leader for most of 2-3 decades.

NBA players are saved from being the softest major pro athletes only by the existence of MLB starting pitchers.

edit for clarity: that's a general observation about the "load management" culture of the NBA, _NOT_ anything about Haliburton specifically. Hell, his comment about "I'd do it again" elevates him at least a full notch toward respectability afaic. So no, my comment wasn't about him.

How many NFL players are playing NFL-level games during the offseason? I missed all the times that Tom Brady went and played tackle football along with other NFL and future NFL players in the off season.

Load management during the season is a separate conversation from the one I spoke about and not necessarily one I believe in if the purpose is to prevent injuries. I do think NBA players should take some time during their OFF season to rest and recover from a hard season before jumping into their off season training and should limit the NBA level games that they play during the off season as well.

This is from one of the articles below.

THE MOST COMMON explanation is as lazy as it is popular: Players today just aren't as tough as their NBA forefathers. They're soft. Chip Schaefer, the Bulls' director of performance health, refers to this trope as "millennial bashing" -- and this from the man who served as the head athletic trainer during the Bulls' 1990-98 heyday, when they were led by the standard-bearer for NBA toughness: Michael Jordan.

In his career, Jordan battled the hard-hitting "Bad Boys" Pistons and legendarily played through most any injury. In Jordan's day, the gold standard for durability was simple: start all 82 NBA regular-season games, which he did in eight of his 13 seasons in Chicago.

But it's not as if Jordan was a relentless baller all year long.

"When the season ended, Michael left and played golf and didn't pick up a basketball again until probably a little bit before training camp [in September]," says Wally Blase, a Bulls athletic trainer from 1993-2000. "He might have played pickup ball with some friends, but he wasn't working eight hours a day at some gym with some shooting coach." (And in contrast to the myth that has grown around him, Jordan, Blase notes, didn't treat every practice as if it were Game 7: "There were days when Michael would show up, put ice on his knees, go smoke a cigar and then go play 18 holes of golf.")

Jordan wasn't unique in this regard. Former Lakers head athletic trainer Gary Vitti, who spent 32 years with the team, says the Showtime Lakers "hardly played any basketball" when the season ended: "As soon as the season was over, everybody would take at least minimum two weeks, two to three weeks off, give their bodies a rest, let them recover, and then slowly we would do either some jogging or biking and some strength training."

Even these so-so players/teams took some time off in the good ol days.

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

Does AAU play into this at all? Admittedly, I am pretty ignorant about how it works but as I understand it, kids playing AAU are constantly in games weekend after weekend after weekend. That has to take its toll at a certain point. It made me wonder if there are examples international players who have suffered Achilles injuries, especially at a young-ish age, and no one comes to mind. But here we have Haliburton, Dame, Tatum, Durant, and Klay go down with this injury.

There's always the correlation/causation issue to sort through, but I've wondered if AAU has to play some part in what seems to be a trend.

I don't think there is any doubt at this point.


'These kids are ticking time bombs' -- The threat of youth basketball - ESPN

Under the knife -- Exposing America's youth basketball crisis - ESPN

[Ksyrup]

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've ever actually seen Shams Charania, and man, he's terrible on camera.

[Atocep]

Can anyone explain WTF Portland is doing with their roster?

[RainMaker]

Everybdrsft I feel like I know less and less players in it. Never even heard of the guy the Bulls drafted.

[Atocep]

Danny Wolf is another guy I like, for where he was picked. Brooklyn is building a roster around size, passing, and shooting ability.

This draft is a microcosm of bad organizations. New Orleans takes Derik Queen, a guy with conditioning, effort, and shooting concerns to play next to Zion Williamson, a guy with conditioning, effort, and shooting concerns.

Portland drafts a center that absolutely no one had going in the first round. At 16. To add to their collection of centers: Ayton, Robert Williams, and last years pick Donovan Clingan.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Can anyone explain WTF Portland is doing with their roster?

Chinese Jokic!

[JonInMiddleGA]

[quote=miami_fan;3465333]



Even these so-so players/teams took some time off in the good ol days. [quote]

They were also much closer to finished products that today's generation of massively paid "stars" that have multiple major holes in their game.

[wustin]

Ayton's contract expires at the end of next season, so Blazers will try to move him eventually. Rob Williams is perpetually hurt. Yang is a project center and drafting him at #16 was definitely a reach.

[wustin]

Nets were dumb to not consolidate their picks to move up in the draft. And they wasted their 8th pick on that BYU Russian player who wasn't going top 10.

They should've thrown 4 first picks and something else to Utah for the 5th pick once Kon was off the board to get Ace.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wustin

once Kon was off the board to get Ace.

Maybe they decided he was too much of an arrogant prick to be worth the trouble.

[miami_fan]

For me, the theme of the draft so far has been teams beginning to adjust to the new salary structure realities while also trying to copycat the blueprints of the Thunder and Pacers.

Outside of a Wembanyama or a Flagg, Teamsare drafting players who can either be pieces of a championship contender or someone you can move on in pursuit of a piece of a championship contender. All while trying not to run afoul of the aprons. Maybe you find your Chet Holmgren at #2 or your Jokic in the second. Maybe you have to use the flexibility of your roster to trade for a SGA or a Haliburton, to offload a high draft pick who is not living up to what you want from him (Jalen Green) to get another piece. The days of compounding a draft mistake by saddling the team with a albatross of a max deal for a okay player are over IMO.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm almost in shock: someone on ESPN's payroll actually talking sense

Wetzel: Please don't expand NCAA basketball tournaments - ESPN

[Ksyrup]

Reminds me of this Club World Cup stuff that's I've heard is going on right now (in the US, even!). Who is this for, other than the people who run the sport to sell more TV content?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Reminds me of this Club World Cup stuff that's I've heard is going on right now (in the US, even!). Who is this for, other than the people who run the sport to sell more TV content?

I'm still salty a.f. about the stupid mid-season invented competitions bullshit after the Panthers lost Tkachuk down the stretch.

Ranks up there with the dumbest fucking shit ever afaic.

It's a slap in the face of the core fans, who really ought to push back with their wallets. I mean, if the ACTUAL SEASON isn't important enough to have priority over some madeup bullshit, then why should I think it's important enough to spend money on?

edit to add: Once the Mets lost Diaz in absurd fashion at the happy horseshit baseball thing, that should have been glaring evidence how fucking bad an idea this sort of stuff is.

[Ksyrup]

What's your take on NFL players in an Olympic flag football competition? Ha!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

What's your take on NFL players in an Olympic flag football competition? Ha!

JFC, there's so much wrong with that sentence even existing that deciding where to begin unloading on such mindnumbing fuckery is enough to cause a headache all its own.

[RainMaker]

I will enjoy it but I will also pray no one from the Bears participates.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Who is this for, other than the people who run the sport to sell more TV content?

1. The people who run the media companies who want to buy more sports content in lieu of waiting for someone to give them something creative to put on.

2. The athletes who will benefit from the exposure that comes with being on TV more.

3. The sports fans who will go from hating it to just throwing it on in the background to gambling/playing fantasy version of the sport in a short period of time.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Reminds me of this Club World Cup stuff that's I've heard is going on right now (in the US, even!). Who is this for, other than the people who run the sport to sell more TV content?

From what I've read, approximately $1B will go to participating clubs through both prize and participation money. FIFA have made a big deal that none of the rest (which could be as high as another $1B) will go to FIFA itself, but mainly to "solidarity payments" to non-participating clubs.

And there's the rub. FIFA leadership will distribute to clubs in federations as a way to buy influence and votes going forward.

It's 0% about improving the game or fans' experience of the game. It's 100% about retaining control over the distribution of future revenues.

Secondarily, it's another battle in the war with mainly UEFA to control football-related revenue.

[JPhillips]

The Feds are investigating Malik Beasley for point shaving and other gambling related crimes.

[Ghost Econ]

Look, he's a 28 year old who's only made $60 million. Who wouldn't take that risk for a couple hundred thousand more.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

From what I've read, approximately $1B will go to participating clubs through both prize and participation money. FIFA have made a big deal that none of the rest (which could be as high as another $1B) will go to FIFA itself, but mainly to "solidarity payments" to non-participating clubs.

And there's the rub. FIFA leadership will distribute to clubs in federations as a way to buy influence and votes going forward.

It's 0% about improving the game or fans' experience of the game. It's 100% about retaining control over the distribution of future revenues.

Secondarily, it's another battle in the war with mainly UEFA to control football-related revenue.

Wasn't that billion just Saudi money too? They massively overpaid for the rights to the event through their weird TV network very few people even have.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

Look, he's a 28 year old who's only made $60 million. Who wouldn't take that risk for a couple hundred thousand more.

My theory on these stories is it is less about the player and more about their friends. If you find out someone is going to be on a minute restriction or unlikely to play much in advance, you can clean up on player prop bets. Just text a buddy and tell them.

I would hope he's not dumb enough to just be doing this on his own.

[JonInMiddleGA]

EA SPORTS
@EASPORTS
·
45m
Bring the Madness. Let’s run it back. #CBB #ItsInTheGame

[RainMaker]

Well that's a positive development even though EA doesn't have a great track record with basketball games of late.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

My theory on these stories is it is less about the player and more about their friends. If you find out someone is going to be on a minute restriction or unlikely to play much in advance, you can clean up on player prop bets. Just text a buddy and tell them.

I would hope he's not dumb enough to just be doing this on his own.

I have not seen any reports involving point shaving. If he is involved in that or made prop bets himself, he is cooked for sure.

The game in question is from last season when the Bucks who Beasley played for at the time faced the Blazers. Here is the exact terminology from an ESPN article.

The odds on Beasley recording fewer than 2.5 rebounds moved significantly at sportsbooks before the game, shortening from around +120 to around -250 due to a surge of action on the under. Beasley finished with six rebounds, and the bets that were deemed unusual lost.

If my less than basic understanding is correct, then the bettors thought he would definitely record more than 2.5 rebounds so they bet the over, right?

If that is correct, I am a bit confused as to what the issue is. Beasley averaged 3.7 rebounds for the entire season and played in 79 games. He is capable of getting six rebounds in a game. In fact, he got six rebounds in a game against the Blazers earlier that year. If I were inclined to do so, that seems like a reasonable bet to make.

Is the issue simply that way too many people were inclined to place prop bets on Beasley's rebounding on that night? Are they accusing him of playing extra hard and doing too much to make sure he went over 2.5 rebounds? If he was running away from the basketball to avoid getting rebounds to ensure the under won, I understand the problem with that. Explain it to me like a toddler.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

EA SPORTS
@EASPORTS
·
45m
Bring the Madness. Let’s run it back. #CBB #ItsInTheGame

This is what I want but it’s being made by the wrong company. Hopefully EA proves me wrong but their basketball games were so bad they stopped making them.

[GrantDawg]

The Hawks are having a really good off season. Kind of scary. I'm expecting a really bad move any time now.

Sent from my SM-S938U using Tapatalk

[Atocep]

Michael Porter Jr to the Nets for Cam Johnson and a 1st. Porter might average 25 shots a game with them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

If I'm confused about something, I figure someone here can correct me easily enough.

POR signs Lillard 3/$42. Okay.

But I'm not crazy, he's expected to miss all of next season while recovering from injury, right?

So they're going to pay him $14m next year to do nothing, so they can pay him another $28m to be a 37 and 38 y/o coming off a major injury?

[RainMaker]

That is a weird signing. Assuming they're throwing away next season, it is $14 million for a rotation player. That isn't bad.

Him coming off that kind of injury at that age is rough, but I'm also guessing ticket sales played a role as well. Portland was dead when I went to a game last season and I think they need to do anything to build some positive buzz. Kind of reminds me of when the Bulls signed Pippen for a final season when he was totally cooked.

[RainMaker]

I find the move weirder for Lillard. He's getting paid from Milwaukee regardless and I figured he would ring chase for his last couple seasons.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, that's my thought - I certainly get making as much money as possible, but the only read of this decision from Lillard is that he's content to just play out the string on a mediocre/crappy team, maximize his dollars, and that he values being an organization legend over winning a championship as role player on a good/great team.

[flere-imsaho]

I have read elsewhere that he really likes living in Portland and a big part of that is being the franchise legend.

[miami_fan]

If all parties are being honest, there was little to no desire from either side to trade Dame from Portland in the first place. The Blazers did not want to trade him at all. Dame loves Portland and the Blazers but began to face questions about whether he actually wanted to compete for a ring because he was not winning one in Portland and all of the other superstars who really wanted to win titles were forcing their teams' hands. So he kinda, sorta, if they would, ask the Blazers for a trade.

Dame preferred to go to Miami due in part to his friendship with Bam Adebayo. Miami basically offered a bag of balls to the Blazers because the Blazers HAD to trade Dame to his preferred location, right? The Blazers got pissed and basically decided to trade him anywhere but Miami but still tried to do right by Dame. That is how he got to Milwaukee.

From all of the reports I have seen, he did not dislike being in Milwaukee. It was just where he worked. His home, his kids (he was in the process of getting a divorce when traded), his mother, his best friends and his community all lived in Portland. So he gave it a couple of seasons away from all of that to see if he can get the ring with Giannis, it did not work. So he is going back home. I would compare it to a Premier League player who decides to go down to the Championship or League 1 to play for his hometown club.

From the Blazers perspective, instead of having to pay Lilliard $56M per over the next two years based on the contract they signed him to that was traded to the Bucks, they are only paying the mid level exception to bring their all time leading scorer home.

[Carman Bulldog]

So no talk of the Clippers-Kawhi situation?

[flere-imsaho]

I'm honestly surprised there isn't more of that sort of thing, though this one in particular seems like someone greatly overshooting what they could get done without getting caught.

[sovereignstar v2]

Uh oh. We got some Joe Smith shit going down??

[Ksyrup]

This is far down on my list of things to care about. Not that it might not be a huge deal. I just don't care about it. Certainly not enough to read anything more than the blurbs I see on The Athletic newsletter or want to discuss it.

[RainMaker]

I'm more fascinated in how they punish it or if they let it go. It's far worse than the Joe Smith stuff. But it's also a team in a market the NBA cares about.

Probably comes down to what the other owners think and whether they're doing the same stuff. But I would think loss of 3 first round picks and a 5 year suspension from the sport for Ballmer and other execs who were involved. It's straight up cheating.

[albionmoonlight]

Paige Beuckers wins rookie of the year. Which gives every entity on my social media feed with any connection to basketball whatsoever an excuse to put up a photo of an attractive blonde white chick.

We went from zero to Children of the Corn instantly.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm more fascinated in how they punish it or if they let it go. It's far worse than the Joe Smith stuff. But it's also a team in a market the NBA cares about.

Probably comes down to what the other owners think and whether they're doing the same stuff. But I would think loss of 3 first round picks and a 5 year suspension from the sport for Ballmer and other execs who were involved. It's straight up cheating.

On one hand it's the Clippers. The NBA cares but not really. On the other hand it is Steve Ballmer. The Steve Ballmer whose net worth is more than seven billion dollars more than the majority owners of the next five teams combined. Even if they wanted to go light on him because they are all do it, they can't allow it because they don't want to have to keep up up with him doing it.

I think Ballmer has enough plausible deniability to only get a year suspension along with the minority owners. I think the rules will be changed to get rid of no show jobs and everyone will figure out other ways to circumvent the cap.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Paige Beuckers wins rookie of the year. Which gives every entity on my social media feed with any connection to basketball whatsoever an excuse to put up a photo of an attractive blonde white chick.

We went from zero to Children of the Corn instantly.

Good ball player, hella good one at this level but let's be honest "attractive blonde" is being pretty generous. As 23 y/o blondes go, she's a bit above average but I'm struggling to see much more than that aside from the odd occasions where she's professionally done up for a photo shoot

[Radii]

Fever/Dream game 3 last night in Atlanta to advance Indiana to the WNBA Semis is the most excited I've been about a sporting event in many years, great game.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Good ball player, hella good one at this level but let's be honest "attractive blonde" is being pretty generous. As 23 y/o blondes go, she's a bit above average but I'm struggling to see much more than that aside from the odd occasions where she's professionally done up for a photo shoot

It's the bonus points that for whatever reason everyone gives to anyone who is young, thin, and blonde (natural or not). (I feel like we've kicked this around before. Quik maybe?) It's like all those "hot" sorority girls who are all made up the same way but if you peel everything back range from cute to YIKES. But hey, young thin and blonde.

(Also, they realize she's gay, right? So little point in any fantasy angle. Though maybe that doesn't really stop anyone, who knows.)

[RainMaker]

I don't follow her much but it seems like part of her charm is that she has a really fun personality that people like. Some of the clips with her and Geno were genuinely funny.