Jets...Winfield?

[mmarra82]

Reports in New York are that the Jets and Free Agent CB, Antoine Winfield reached an agreement in principal, however, late last night Winfield began to have a change of heart and would like to visit some other teams as well.

So far, the Jets are off to a wonderful offseason once again. It looks as though they are not going to get the shut down corner they desired (Bailey, Springs, Winfield), they did not even make an offer for Owens ( I would have liked to see them have offered a 2nd), and one of the LB's they were interested in Marcus Washington apparently has signed with Washington.

And, on top of that they are shopping DE John Abraham. After Edwards annonunced that he was going to move Abraham to SLB, move 2nd year man Hobson to MLB alongside Cowart, plans have changed. Cowart will be the MLB this season, Hobson to the SLB, and Jets are shopping for a WLB and Abraham is on the block. What's next? Anyone out there give me a reason to be optimistic about this off season.

[Noble_Platypus]

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/7143367


The hottest cornerback prospect on the market is still very much on the market despite reports that he has agreed to a deal with the Jets.

SportsLine.com has learned that CB Antoine Winfield has boarded a private jet and headed to Minnesota to meet with the Vikings rather than remain in New York to finalize a contract with the New York Jets.

Sources close to Winfield also told SportsLine.com that Vikings head coach Mike Tice and offensive stars Randy Moss and Daunte Culpepper personally phoned Winfield asking him to visit the Vikings before he made a decision on a final offer.

It was reported that the Jets would introduce Winfield at a Friday news conference, which would be pretty darn tough to do if he was in Minnesota. He was also scheduled to visit the Texans, and Miami also held an interest in the 5-foot-9 corner.

Winfield was the Bills' first-round pick in 1999 and started every game but one in which he played during the past three seasons. Although he didnt have a lot of interceptions during his career, he is regarded as a terrific cover corner and outstanding overall defensive back.

Vikings defensive coordinator Ted Cotrell was Winfield's coordinator during his rookie season in 1999 in Buffalo.

[mckerney]

ESPN is reporting calls from Mike Tice and several Vikings players convinced Winfield to at least visit Minnesota.

[JAG]

I'm surprised more free agents don't visit more teams. You'd think they could at least drive up the price a bit. Unless they're already tampering beforehand and know exactly what their value is (nevermind, answered my own question).

[cthomer5000]

The last 3 years of the Jets.

• "I'm Herman Edwards. I will bring the vaunted Cover-2 defense to the New York Jets, where our defense will be a replica of the Buccaneers"
• In this brilliant Cover 2, we have no need for great cover corners. We need passable zone defenders who can tackle, and great safeties. Please ignore the fact that the roster currently has above-average corners and below average safeties.
• We've lost a huge receiver the prior year. To replace him, we will take the shortest possible receiver in the first round, Santana Moss. We will make our love of him so public that we will need to trade up to get him - when we likely could have sat still and taken him anyway.
• I, Herman Edwards will do nothing but bad mouth our 2nd year QB, Chad Pennington. I will questions his skills extensively over the next 2 season, all while Testeverde resembles a pile of dung on the field.
• We eek into the playoffs on the existing roster, where we are beaten by the Raiders.
• Year 2, time to put my footprint on this team! "We want to make a big splash in the draft..... so lets think. What positiion do we need the absolute least? Defensive End! Forget the outstanding play of John Abraham, and the solid 2-way play of Shaun Ellis... let's draft Bryan Thomas - a complete reach at #18 overall. Bryan will make such an impact that he will be on the inactive roster for more than half the season."
• Let's import a great 3-4 defensive coordinator (Ted Washington)....and then force him to run my defense.
• The expansion draft is here. Goodbye cover corners and good young offensive tackle! Good thing we didn't keep them... we don't need them!
• "Uh oh, we've started slowly again. Time to finally put Pennington in there, even though I was again bad-mouthing him throughout training camp."
• "Wow, this Chad guy is good. Now I can rally around that and look like a genius. Whew, Chad's breakthrough season has again kept the heat off our struggling defense."
• Year 3. Hmmm, big-offseason coming up. We're going to let Laverneus Coles walk, even though he just had a gigantic season with a young quarterback. They seemed to have a special chemistry, and this team is obviously built to win now. Still, we're going to let Coles leave.
• Although letting Coles walk out the door pratcially announced "We're not good enough to win the Super Bowl this year" rather than start to rebuild a rapidly again team, we'll slap together a bunch of crap and try to keep the fans in the seats.
• We'll make great use of that extra first round pick, don't worry! Hmm, should we stay where we are and draft 2 defensive tackles, or a tackle and cornerback? NO! We'll trade up for DeWayne Robertson. Hey, let's throw in a third rounder as well. Why would this aging team want these draft picks anyway?
• DeWayne could often be seen being blocked 10 yards downfield. He was more often not seen, but instead completely disappeared during the entire game.
• Uh, oh. Chad's injured. Despite the fact that Vinny is playing well, and it's the defense that is costing us all these games - we'll use the Chad injury as the excuse.... alll.....season....long.
• Even when the Raiders open the game by running the ball 16 consecutive plays for an 80 yard touchdown drive... we'll pretend this all dates back to the Chad injury.
• "It's tough being Herm. People are saying "fire the offensive coordinator!... fire the defensive coordinator!". Whew, for some reason they're still not saying fire me! Thank god."
• "Alright, the team is clearly sliding, but I just got a 2-year extension!"
• "Ted Washington has got to go... it's all his fault this defense stinks. I will rebound by hiring my 10th choice for Defensive Coordinator."
• Chad Pennington, John Abraham, and Shaun Ellis are all heading into the last year of their contracts... have we heard a peep about re-signing the 3 best players on the team? No, we've only heard Ellis and Abraham mentioned in trade.
• "We're moving John Abraham to linebacker. We're trying to trade Shaun Ellis.... who needs defensive ends?!"
• "It's good to be Herm. We're trying to trade for Champ Bailey, we're trying to sign Antoine Winfield.... please forget what I said about not needing good cover corners a few seasons ago."

Ok, the Cover 2 is gone (the very scheme that landed Herm his job here.

4 years in I see no signs of direction on the team. The defense has about 5 players under contract (2 of which are apparently on the trading block), and Pennington is in a contract year. If I were him I'd play out this year, get franchised, and absolutely demand a trade.

It has been real hard to be a fan under this regime.

[JAG]

The other thing about not having resigned their top guys (Pennington, Abraham, Ellis)...isn't that the reason they claimed they let Coles go? So they'd have money to resign these guys? If they had already done it, they could've had lots of space under the salary cap to pursue lots of FA's (if that was their wish), not to mention they would've gotten a better deal prior to Kearse and Manning setting the bars awfully high for QB's and DE's. Definitely not great management as you point out.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JAG

The other thing about not having resigned their top guys (Pennington, Abraham, Ellis)...isn't that the reason they claimed they let Coles go? So they'd have money to resign these guys? If they had already done it, they could've had lots of space under the salary cap to pursue lots of FA's (if that was their wish), not to mention they would've gotten a better deal prior to Kearse and Manning setting the bars awfully high for QB's and DE's. Definitely not great management as you point out.

They appear to never be thinking beyond the 1 thing they are doing at the moment. I mean, are they f***ing serious about moving Abraham (back!) to linebacker and trading Ellis? What are they thinking?

Just explain to me why Herman Edwards is still coach. The system he was hiring to bring in is apparently completely gone now, and when both the offense and defense are obviously underachieving... shouldn't we be looking at the coach rather than the coordinators? I know we're not keeping Herm around for his clock management or late-game decision making.

[cthomer5000]

I'm just gonna keep posting here, I have to get this out of my system.

The drafting has been absolutely terrible from the Bradway/Edwards regime. The Bryan Thomas selection was absolutely mind-blowing at the time. We already had 2 good, young defensive ends (1 having just made the pro bowl), and they spend a first round pick on the position of absolute least need (this is not even open for debate, it is a fact). How in the world do you defend that selection? Add in the fact that he has been a spectacular bust, and it's pretty hard to live with.

I hated the DeWayne Robertson move the first second I heard about it. If DT was such a bit concern, I would have been happier taking 2 DT's with the first round picks. It's just not easy to tell me we essentially traded Laverneus Coles, our 1st round pick, and our 3rd pick for DeWayne Robertson (who also played like complete trash this year). Again, DT wasn't even the most pressing need on the team, and yet we spend 3 high draft picks on one player - this is particularly bad given the age of the defense (which is now being gutted).

Looking at everything they've done, it is impossible to discern any philosohpy or long-term plan. At every step they seem to be acting on a whim.

[cthomer5000]

Now Shaun Ellis, John Abraham, and Chad Pennington are all entering the final year of their contract. As JAG pointed out, didn't they say they were going to use that Coles money to re-sign these guys? Now the markets will be out of control, and all will be hot commodites in the off-season. Clearly, the only one we're keeping is whoever gets franchised (it would have to be Pennington).

The offensive line is in shambles, we have 2 linebackers under contract (and they were considering cutting Sam Cowart just days ago), and now they want to throw huge money at a cover corner.

If they start this season slow, I will be rooting for a 2-14 season and a dismissal of the entire front office and coaching staff. I have less than zero confidence that this group can ever bring home a Lombardi trophy.

[JAG]

Well, if the Robertson move had worked out (and it was only his first year, so there's still that possibility), I would imagine they're thinking that he could be the Sapp in their Cover 2 scheme. Get a disruptive force in the middle that allows double-teams and let the two (or three, heh) young DE's pile up the sacks. Lots of pressure, no blitzing needed. Apparently they think that didn't happen, because Winfield doesn't fit the mold of a cover 2 corner except that he tackles great...he's much more of a man-to-man corner.

I hate to say it though, the words that come to mind for their decision-making is, "They're in over their heads."

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JAG

I hate to say it though, the words that come to mind for their decision-making is, "They're in over their heads."

Agreed. To me, the breaking point was the Coles/Morton fiasco.

When prompted with the Coles offer sheet that had to realize two things:

A. "We have to match this offer and make a run at a Super Bowl right now. This team is not getting younger, and taking away Pennington's go-to-guy can potentially derail his development."
B. "We don't think Coles is a difference maker anyway, and the money is just too high. We aren't good enough to win the Super Bowl, so lets at least thinkg long term here. Start gutting the oldies, and lets get working on re-building."

Instead, they just sat there and added Curtis Conway to replace Coles. And in all their brilliance, it took them until midseason to even put Santana Moss (a first round pick) into the starting lineup. It's just some seriously unbelievable stuff. I expect it to get pretty ugly this year, and I hope its bad enough to cost everyone their jobs.

[Super Ugly]

J!-E!-T!-S!
JE-
Ah ... forget it about it.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Agreed. To me, the breaking point was the Coles/Morton fiasco.

Ah the Morton fiasco, when a Redskins season ticket holder decided where Chad Morton would play between Washington and New York.

[mmarra82]

I was very upset about the Coles move as well, however, Washington paid an enormous amount of money for him. I bought that they just could not afford Coles, then turn around and sign Pennington, Abraham and Ellis. However, they have not done a thing. As mentioned, Herm's philosophy on how to attack each season has changed. He inherited a team that still had Parcell's stamp on it, and since the teams record has continued to be on the decline. He pointed at Cotrell as the reason for the decline, however, he brings in Cotrell who has a totally different defensive philosophy than Edwards. Cotrell was a 3-4 attack style D, Herm wanted to play a 4-3 Cover-2. Why bring in the guy?

Then just this offseason they do not even take a crack at hiring the D Coordinators that were out there, they dragged there feet and came up short on all the top D hirings, now that has already shown at the beginning of the FA period. I do not disagree with giving up the players for Bailey, however, it is obvious they did not pursue Springs aggresively, and they did not even make an offer for Owens.

[mmarra82]

Regarding the DE situation:

There was talks at the end of last season how well Bryan Thomas played in the absence of Abraham, however, Thomas did not register one sack, and that was while Ellis was being double teamed the second half of the season. You could see the writing on the wall that one of the DE's was or is going to be moved, weather they move Abraham to Linebacker, which is stupid. Or, trade him for a top pick. Which in turn they will combine with there other #1 pick and then move up in the draft to get a top WR when the there are a ton of them available later in the round.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

They appear to never be thinking beyond the 1 thing they are doing at the moment. I mean, are they f***ing serious about moving Abraham (back!) to linebacker and trading Ellis? What are they thinking?

Just explain to me why Herman Edwards is still coach.

What are they thinking? Well, they are not thinking about trading Ellis. That is just not going to happen. In fact, if it turns out they can only afford one of Ellis/Abraham, I think they are leaning towards Ellis. I think that rumor is in the 50% of all sports stories in New York papers that are fabricated.

Herman Edwards' hiring had nothing to do with the cover 2. He was hired because he interviewed for the KC job at some point (I forget when) and blew away assistant GM Terry Bradway. When Bradway became GM, there was only one name on his list for coaches. Herm is, in fact, the poster child for minority coaches going on token interviews - going on the token KC interview got him the Jet job. Why is he still coach? Some people consider him one of the best coaches in the league. Why, I have no idea. He is certainly a good talker, which has gotten the media and the owner to fall in love with him. I think both play a part in the J's keeping him despite EVERY Jet fan I know absolutely hating him. I think he will be the Jet coach until such point as the owner tells the GM, "either you fire Herm, or I fire you both."

I agree with you that both the Moss pick (at least the way they handled it) and the Thomas picks were assinine. D-Rob at least had a strong last 4 games, and I think he'll be less than a complete bust.

But, as far as Jet regimes go, do you really think this one falls below the "average" line? Who would you put ahead of them, besides the obvious?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Samdari

But, as far as Jet regimes go, do you really think this one falls below the "average" line? Who would you put ahead of them, besides the obvious?

While this regime is about average in terms of ineptitude, I think this crap in wake of the successful Parcells era makes it harder to handle.

[Super Ugly]

Am I the only Jets fan who doesn't hate Herman? I think of him more as a faintly embarrassing, trying to be cool wit' da kids kind of uncle who you avoid at family gatherings.

[mckerney]

Jets: CB Winfield backs out of Jets' deal

Winfield's agent, Richard Katz, was believed to be in favor of Winfield signing the deal. But the player wanted to make other visits, in part because the Minnesota Vikings convinced Winfield he was the top cornerback in free agency and needed to explore the market rather than sign with the first team he visited.

The Jets were so convinced they had a deal with Winfield in place that they were prepared to schedule a press conference for today announcing the signing.

But the Vikings, who are reportedly more than $30 million under the salary cap, were relentless. Coach Mike Tice called Winfield on his cell phone -- as did quarterback Daunte Culpepper, receiver Randy Moss and safety Corey Chavous -- to convince Winfield to at least come to Minnesota for a visit.

In fact, Tice, a Long Island native, arranged for a private plane to be sent to a small airport in Farmingdale, Long Island, to pick up Winfield last night and take him to Minnesota.

Also to be considered: New Vikings defensive coordinator Ted Cottrell, the former Jets defensive coordinator, coached Winfield his first two years in the NFL with the Bills.

And on the Jets plans if they can't get Winfield:

The Jets may now turn their attention to 49ers cornerback Ahmed Plummer. They've also shown interest in Cardinals cornerback David Barrett and the Eagles' Troy Vincent.

Not so sure about Barrett, and Vincent is getting up their in years for a CB not named Darrell Green, but I'd have to think that Ahmed Plummer would makes Jets fans happy.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

Am I the only Jets fan who doesn't hate Herman? I think of him more as a faintly embarrassing, trying to be cool wit' da kids kind of uncle who you avoid at family gatherings.

I see right through all his phony bullshit, but the media seems to just eat it up.

[mmarra82]

Not so sure about Barrett, and Vincent is getting up their in years for a CB not named Darrell Green, but I'd have to think that Ahmed Plummer would makes Jets fans happy.[/quote]

Ahmed Plummer would be an upgrade over Ray Mickens.

I am a Jet fan as well, and I do not hate the Herm Regime, I just do not understand how your philophy can change so much from year to year. It is hard as a Jet fan to see what kind of plan they have in place.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

While this regime is about average in terms of ineptitude, I think this crap in wake of the successful Parcells era makes it harder to handle.

Yes, we were briefly spoiled. Although Parcells went to the playoffs once in 3 years. Herm is 2 of 3. And other than a few late round successes (actually, with the collapse of Ryan Young, only Ferguson fits here) Parcells did not do that great a job drafting for the Jets either.

In fact, looking over the list, it looks like a disaster.

Tuna's picks:

1997
1-8 James Farrior
2-1 Rick Terry
3-3 Dedric Ward
4-6 Terry Day
4-8 Leon Johnson
5-1 Lamont Burns
5-15 Raymont Austin
6-1 Tim Scharf
6-28 Chuck Clements
7-1 Steve Rosga
7-28 Jason Ferguson

1998
2-26 Dorian Boose
3-6 Scott Frost
3-26 Kevin Williams
4-19 Jason Fabini
5-11 Casey Dailey
5-18 Doug Karczewski
5-23 Blake Spence
5-26 Eric Bateman
6-10 Eric Ogbogu
6-21 Chris Brazzell
6-30 Dustin Johnson
7-6 Lawrence Hart

1999
2-26 Randy Thomas
3-29 David Loverne
4-28 Jason Wiltz
5-29 Jermaine Jones
6-14 Marc Megna
6-28 J.P. Machado
7-17 Ryan Young
7-29 J.J Syvrud

I don't agree with almost anything the Jets have done in the first round since 2000 (which I am not sure who picked. One of the firsts was compensation from Belichek, so Tuna had resigned, but I cannot remember if Bradway had been hired) but at least they have been getting solid players in later rounds (Hobson, Askew, Jordan, MacKenzie, Reed, Peko) whereas those were terrible during the Tuna era.

[cthomer5000]

Parcells was in charge of the Pennington draft class, and basically retired after the draft.

The Pennington, Ellis, Abraham picks have certainly helped redeem some of his shitty draft classes.

[Jets80]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Parcells was in charge of the Pennington draft class, and basically retired after the draft.

The Pennington, Ellis, Abraham picks have certainly helped redeem some of his shitty draft classes.

The other 1st rounder that year was TE Anthony Becht

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Jets80

The other 1st rounder that year was TE Anthony Becht

Yeah, I know. Notice I didn't mention him as doing much to save Parcells draft reputation?

Becht has been thoroughly average every year. He mixes spectacular catches with bone-headed drops. He still plays like a rookie.

[Jets80]

Originally Posted by Super Ugly

Am I the only Jets fan who doesn't hate Herman? I think of him more as a faintly embarrassing, trying to be cool wit' da kids kind of uncle who you avoid at family gatherings.

I think Herm is a great coach. His teams will always over achieve becasue he is a great leader and his players rally around him.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Jets80

I think Herm is a great coach. His teams will always over achieve becasue he is a great leader and his players rally around him.

Except for the first 6 games of every season...

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Jets80

I think Herm is a great coach. His teams will always over achieve becasue he is a great leader and his players rally around him.

except when they need to stop a running play. Trust me, his rhetoric will wear on the team either this year or next, and they'll completely tune him out.

[Jets80]

There sure are some negitve angry Jet fans here. I have been a Jet fan for 28 years. And when you become a Jet fan you take an oath to accept loosing, not stopping the run, bad drafts, bad coaches.

In my lifetime I have been forced to watch Pat Ryan, Ken Obrien & Neil Odonell and others not even worth naming. Watched Vinny and Pennington get season injuries in hyped up possible playoff seasons. Watched Thurman Thomas run through the middle at will. The infamous Dan Marino "fake snap" play which also cost me a $1200 bet. Cursed coach Joe Walton and was ready to commit suicide during the Buddie Kotite era. Watched Parcells leave just when things were going good and watched Bill Belichek quit and go win two super bowls with the Pat's. Watched Blair Thomas and Jhonny Mitchell bust. Had to listen to Meshawn Johnson talk crap about my favorite Jet. And I cant even remember the rest of all the tragic Jet memories I have, I guess I have blocked them out of my mind. So right now the Best things we have going for us is Coach Edwards, Santana Moss, A few 1st rounders on defense who are unsigned or not developed yet. And they will definitly resign Pennington to a long term deal. We got a new defense coord. Maybe another season or two out of Curtis Martin, a good Offense line. So stay positive guys....this could be the year. If not this year then maybe next year or the next one after that.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Not so sure about Barrett, and Vincent is getting up their in years for a CB not named Darrell Green, but I'd have to think that Ahmed Plummer would makes Jets fans happy.

Barrett may be better than Plummer and Vincent, and the fact that he played in Arizona has got to keep his price cheaper. No name recognition, you know.

The Jets are not done in the Winfield thing either. Other teams are just hinting they might offer more money. I don't think he has said he will not sign with the Jets.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Jets80

If not this year then maybe next year or the next one after that.

Well, that proves he's really a jet fan....

[mckerney]

Vikings | Winfield On the Way - from www.KFFL.com
Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:22:38 -0800

Jay Glazer, of SportsLine.com, reports free agent CB Antoine Winfield (Bills) has boarded a private jet and is headed to Minnesota to meet with the Minnesota Vikings rather than stay in New York to finalize a deal with the New York Jets. It is believed the Vikings will offer him enough to convince him not to leave.

[mmarra82]

The Jets make a trade for a WR!!!!

Oh wait, not that WR, the Jets sent their 2nd round pick (42nd overall) to Tennessee for WR Justin McCareins. He appears to have the size they were looking for, but if you were willing to give up a 2nd round pick, what sense does it make that you did not even take a shot at Owens. This guys has 69 receptions in three seasons, is he worth this?

Once again a move I am not quite sure I understand, I hope he works out.

[mmarra82]

After just watching an interview on ESPN news of Terrel Owens with Andrea Kramer, I can say that I am glad the Jets did not make an offer for the jackass. Score one for the Jets!

[Craptacular]

Winfield spurns Jets, signs with Viqueens

[sovereignstar]

What's up with everyone giving links to old news?

:P

[oykib]

I think the problem with the Jets is more Bradway than Edwards.

[cthomer5000]

Gotta love the panic move for McCareins. I think that's a pretty high selection to give up in a draft this deep at receiver. This had better pay immediate dividends.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Gotta love the panic move for McCareins. I think that's a pretty high selection to give up in a draft this deep at receiver. This had better pay immediate dividends.

No more Conway today...that acquisition proved to be a stroke of genius.

I think McCareins is just OK. 2nd round seems too high but you do need someone with some size out there...