So where will Kerry Collins end up?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

I guess they want to make that 2005 1st rounder worthwhile for the Chargers, eh ?

yep.

It sounds like it's more Collins than the Giants really. the Giants seem to believe they can't afford both Manning and Collins this season. They wanted to work out an extension with Collins - but he said he would not alter his contract in any way. So the Giants feel they're going to be forced to cut him.

Honestly, it's not the best move given the ready-to-win level of talent on offense.

The Chargers should sign Collins.

[JAG]

At this point, the Giants may as well take their lumps with Eli as the immediate starter. Is a veteran backup really going to teach him more than Archie and Peyton? What he really needs is a good QB coach to keep his head on straight during games when everything goes to hell.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JAG

At this point, the Giants may as well take their lumps with Eli as the immediate starter. Is a veteran backup really going to teach him more than Archie and Peyton? What he really needs is a good QB coach to keep his head on straight during games when everything goes to hell.

I agree on that count. I never really buy into the whole "mentoring" thing, unless the person is going to be working with a hall-of-fame talent. I just think this move stinks for Giants fans. This is a team that could probably bounce back and make the playoffs with a veteran QB. With a rookie, we know what history shows us - it would be a mircale to make the playoffs, 8-8 is a stretch, and 4-5 wins is the likely scenario.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

The Chargers should sign Collins.

Despite the fact that this would just crush whatever's left of Drew Brees's psyche... I like this.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I agree on that count. I never really buy into the whole "mentoring" thing, unless the person is going to be working with a hall-of-fame talent. I just think this move stinks for Giants fans. This is a team that could probably bounce back and make the playoffs with a veteran QB. With a rookie, we know what history shows us - it would be a mircale to make the playoffs, 8-8 is a stretch, and 4-5 wins is the likely scenario.

Exactly. Hence my previous post.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I agree on that count. I never really buy into the whole "mentoring" thing, unless the person is going to be working with a hall-of-fame talent. I just think this move stinks for Giants fans. This is a team that could probably bounce back and make the playoffs with a veteran QB. With a rookie, we know what history shows us - it would be a mircale to make the playoffs, 8-8 is a stretch, and 4-5 wins is the likely scenario.

I disagree with this. I think other coaches should look at what Jeff Fisher did with McNair, a player who was far more of a stretch than Manning supposedly is. Neil O'Donnell was certainly not hall-of-fame material.

I will be curious to see how Carson Palmer does after a season of learning the ropes.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I agree on that count. I never really buy into the whole "mentoring" thing, unless the person is going to be working with a hall-of-fame talent. I just think this move stinks for Giants fans. This is a team that could probably bounce back and make the playoffs with a veteran QB. With a rookie, we know what history shows us - it would be a mircale to make the playoffs, 8-8 is a stretch, and 4-5 wins is the likely scenario.

True, but fans (should) know that this isn't a team that's going to win anything this year. The NFC East should be quite competitive this year and it's not a stretch to say the Giants are the worst team there, although I actually feel the four teams are pretty well bunched together at this point. Manning will probably learn more getting in there and playing than he would on the bench. Since they're not going anywhere this year, they may as well do what they can to make 2005 as good as possible and that means getting Manning some reps. And hope his spirit isn't crushed by the end of the year.

[bhlloy]

Wow... Giants O-Line is BAD. I can't believe they are going to risk Manning this year and I don't know if he can handle the media if they don't make the playoffs. Bad call IMO. Better to stay with Collins or if he wouldn't have fit under the cap try and get Warner. I think Warner would be a very nice fit in the Giants offense for one year.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

I disagree with this. I think other coaches should look at what Jeff Fisher did with McNair, a player who was far more of a stretch than Manning supposedly is. Neil O'Donnell was certainly not hall-of-fame material.

I will be curious to see how Carson Palmer does after a season of learning the ropes.

Yes, but i'm sure there are just as many stories of players who sat for 2-3 years, then totally sucked.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Wow... Giants O-Line is BAD. I can't believe they are going to risk Manning this year and I don't know if he can handle the media if they don't make the playoffs. Bad call IMO. Better to stay with Collins or if he wouldn't have fit under the cap try and get Warner. I think Warner would be a very nice fit in the Giants offense for one year.

the Giants o-line is probably the most overblown story of the offseason. They won't be nearly as bad as advertised.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

the Giants o-line is probably the most overblown story of the offseason. They won't be nearly as bad as advertised.

Agreed. They were absolutely killed by injuries last season.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

Agreed. They were absolutely killed by injuries last season.

Sooooo many injuries last year. I think Shaun O'Hara will be fine at center, Snee will start at guard, and Petigout will be back at left tackle. The O-line will be just fine.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Yes, but i'm sure there are just as many stories of players who sat for 2-3 years, then totally sucked.

But when you have a long term investment such as a #1 pick and the most volatile position in football, should you not play the safe route to give him the greater potential to succeed in the long haul?

If Tom Brady had busted, the Patriots would have been far less affected than if Manning busts for instance. In this case, the risks far outweigh the potential immediate dividend which might be a .500 team.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

But when you have a long term investment such as a #1 pick and the most volatile position in football, should you not play the safe route to give him the greater potential to succeed in the long haul?

If Tom Brady had busted, the Patriots would have been far less affected than if Manning busts for instance. In this case, the risks far outweigh the potential immediate dividend which might be a .500 team.

Manning is certainly a long-term investment, but he's also making huge money right now. The Giants cannot afford him and Collins. I'm not certain they'd be able to bring in a modestly priced veteran who is capable of winning, grooming Manning, and also willing to accept that he's only a short-timer. The Bengals had the ability to do this with Palmer because they already had a reasonably priced veteran on staff who happened to have a great season. I don't know who the Giants could bring in to fill that role. Couch appears to be on his way to Green Bay. Warner will probably want a starting job. Who's left? Jeff George?

[fantastic flying froggies]

The sad part is that Collins actually would have fitted that description pretty well. It's too bad they can't agree on financials...

[HornedFrog Purple]

Yes but that is the financial situation the Giants are forced into. Without looking at the free agents available I couldn't tell you the exact player, but someone like a Charlie Batch or such.

Just as an example, Quincy Carter of last year could have become the Quincy Carter of a couple of years ago if the Cowboys had taken that route (and no Quincy Carter is not great, he is serviceable). But feeding him to the lions immediately was a regression, and they ended up cutting Tony Banks who could have served that role to begin with. But that was the idiocy of the Jerry/Campo regime.

Leftwich had a half season to get some tutorship from Brunell and that seemed to have helped him as the season went along.

Perhaps the Giants feel that Eli will be as good as Peyton was his rookie year due to other circumstances with his situation. But that is a big risk to take.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

The sad part is that Collins actually would have fitted that description pretty well. It's too bad they can't agree on financials...

Agreed. But his cap number is like $8 million this year, and he won't take a cut... so there you have it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

The sad part is that Collins actually would have fitted that description pretty well. It's too bad they can't agree on financials...

I don't see a QB with 132/134 TD/Int and a career 55% Comp. with one season over 60%, as being essential to operations. Kerry Collins is that classic "almost" QB. But he lacks that certain something. I'd class him as a brighter version of Jeff George (same personality defects). It's highly likely that Eli Manning can match a high 40% TD/Int ratio and mid 50s completion rate pretty easily.

[judicial clerk]

They should keep Collins, not so much too "mentor" manning, but to give Manning some time to see the NFL game from the inside out. After being exposed to it for a year from the bench, he should be batter ready to handle starting. Also, Collins gives you a better chance to win next year.

Is Collins unwilling to extend his contract a couple of years and take his compensation as bonus and then be released after June first next year. If this was done, Collins would get his 8 million and the Giants could spread the cap cost over three years.

[mmarra82]

This has been a big topic here in New York, on the sports radio shows, and in the newspapers.

Basically in an interview with Collins yesterday he made it sound as though he wanted out because he did not want to restructure and/or have a younger QB of the future behind him.

So, in that sense you would have to think Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Baltimore do not fit in. Arizona could be a possibility, but it seems that Green likes that kid McNown. Dallas could be as well, however, does he want to be at a place that just brought in a young QB who is being groomed for the position like Drew Henson? San Francisco is my bet, all they have out there is Rattay.

How about Tampa Bay, rumors were circulating at one time that Gruden was not that fond of Johnson?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by mmarra82

This has been a big topic here in New York, on the sports radio shows, and in the newspapers.

Basically in an interview with Collins yesterday he made it sound as though he wanted out because he did not want to restructure and/or have a younger QB of the future behind him.

So, in that sense you would have to think Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Baltimore do not fit in. Arizona could be a possibility, but it seems that Green likes that kid McNown. Dallas could be as well, however, does he want to be at a place that just brought in a young QB who is being groomed for the position like Drew Henson? San Francisco is my bet, all they have out there is Rattay.

How about Tampa Bay, rumors were circulating at one time that Gruden was not that fond of Johnson?

I think it's going to be a classic case of Collins overrating his value. He's going to have either suck it up and take a backup role somewhere or wait out the season until someone gets hurt and then sign.

[Lucky Jim]

I think the Dallas idea makes sense, maybe too much for Jones to do anything about it. The Ravens are another possibility because of the Fassel connection, but if Collins doesn't want to groom Manning he won't want to groom Boller. I do however think that Collins and Fassel were very close, and a lot of this refusal to restructure crap has to do with the coaching change and not just that Collins doesn't want to help groom a young QB.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Giants are taking a big gamble here. Manning would benefit tremendously staying at #2 for a year. Giants have the offense to contend and Collins is a free agent after the season anyway. If the season went south you could still play Manning.

They are already getting a veteran to caddy/start for Manning for a while. Just one that they are going to pay less than 8 million dollars.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Lucky Jim

I think the Dallas idea makes sense, maybe too much for Jones to do anything about it. The Ravens are another possibility because of the Fassel connection, but if Collins doesn't want to groom Manning he won't want to groom Boller. I do however think that Collins and Fassel were very close, and a lot of this refusal to restructure crap has to do with the coaching change and not just that Collins doesn't want to help groom a young QB.

Again, Dallas makes almost no sense at all. Quincy is starting the season to see if he can build off of last year. If he can, he probably starts in 2005 as well, unless Drew Henson beats him out. If Q falters, Drew is probably given the reins of the offense in 2005. So in this case, Collins would come to Dallas for 0.5 years of starting, maybe if we're talking really slow development and a total bomb of Carter, 1.5 years. They're just not going to pay the money Collins will want to do that, nor does it make any sense for them to do so.

[JeeberD]

Why just give Q the job though? Why not bring in some competition and give the job to the QB who looks better. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Q fan. I think he's actually a decent quarterback. But it doesn't make any sense to me me to just hand him the starting position. Competition should bring out the best in Q while handing him the keys to the car could just make him lazy.

Give Collins a reasonable offer with the understanding that he'll have a shot at competing for the starting position. If we wins it, good for him. If he doesn't, at least we'll have a solid back-up if Q gets injured...

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Why just give Q the job though? Why not bring in some competition and give the job to the QB who looks better. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Q fan. I think he's actually a decent quarterback. But it doesn't make any sense to me me to just hand him the starting position. Competition should bring out the best in Q while handing him the keys to the car could just make him lazy.

Give Collins a reasonable offer with the understanding that he'll have a shot at competing for the starting position. If we wins it, good for him. If he doesn't, at least we'll have a solid back-up if Q gets injured...

Wow... you're starting to sound like all us Redskins fans who are trying to justify the signing of Mark Brunell.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

...you're starting to sound like all us Redskins fans...

*shudders*

Please shoot me now before the infection spreads any further...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Why just give Q the job though? Why not bring in some competition and give the job to the QB who looks better. Don't get me wrong, I'm a Q fan. I think he's actually a decent quarterback. But it doesn't make any sense to me me to just hand him the starting position. Competition should bring out the best in Q while handing him the keys to the car could just make him lazy.

Give Collins a reasonable offer with the understanding that he'll have a shot at competing for the starting position. If we wins it, good for him. If he doesn't, at least we'll have a solid back-up if Q gets injured...

The competition is already in camp in Drew Henson. He doesn't have a realistic chance to win of course, but think about it from Quincy's point of view: he's already been replaced once in his career by a quarterback who hadn't played football in four years, he should realize it can happen again. If that's not motivating enough, then nothing would be. He isn't getting it handed to him, he earned a chance based on his play last year to have a look this year to see if he can improve staying with the same offensive system for two years after starting for a full year and with an improved line / running game. If not, he doesn't have a future as a starter in Dallas (or probably anywhere). The Cowboys like their 3rd stringer Romo too, also in his second year. I'm thinking they'll wait and see what they can get from Romo and Henson to figure out if they need to have a veteran backup and then go from there (oh yes, Hutchinson will be released soon I would think...I'm not sure they'll even waste time taking him to camp).

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

*shudders*

Please shoot me now before the infection spreads any further...

It's too late... truthfully, the infection probably started with you guys... after all, the Cowpies were the first to have an overly-meddlesome owner...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

It's too late... truthfully, the infection probably started with you guys... after all, the Cowpies were the first to have an overly-meddlesome owner...

At least he learns from his mistakes....



.....eventually. (I suppose I should give Snyder another 4-5 years to see if it takes him the same amount of time)

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

The sad part is that Collins actually would have fitted that description pretty well. It's too bad they can't agree on financials...

Isn't Collins the same guy who quit on his football team? Not really the kind of guy I'd want mentoring anyone.

[Deattribution]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1791650


official now.


Wednesday, April 28, 2004

Collins cut loose by Giants


ESPN.com news services
NEW YORK -- Kerry Collins is no longer a member of the New York Giants. In what was hardly a surprise, the Giants released the veteran quarterback on Wednesday.


Collins, who took the Giants to the 2001 Super Bowl, said his goodbyes Monday after five years with the team. Collins' days in New York became numbered when the Giants acquired Eli Manning in a draft-day trade on Saturday.


"Unfortunately, the economics of the system we work in today determine these most difficult decisions," Giants general manager Ernie Accorsi said on Wednesday. "For me, I felt a personal identification with Kerry, and I will miss him."


Manning's salary made it almost impossible for the team to have cap room for two highly-paid quarterbacks. Collins was scheduled to earn $7 million next season, but would have cost the Giants $8.95 million of the $80.6 million salary cap.


During his meeting with Accorsi on Monday, Collins said he would not renegotiate his contract.


"I figured there was no reason to hang around," Collins told The Associated Press.


Accorsi denied he suggested the quarterback take a pay cut, as Collins asserted.


"He may have misunderstood," Accorsi said, adding that the restructuring would have involved turning some of the salary into a signing bonus and adding "voidable years" that Collins would almost surely opt out of.


Another factor: Collins' impression that new coach Tom Coughlin seemed ready to make Manning the starter almost immediately.


"Ernie told me that he felt Eli was one of the three or four best college quarterbacks he's seen in the last 20 years," Collins said. "Someone like Elway or Marino. Someone like that."


Collins was the first draft pick ever of the Carolina Panthers in 1995 and quarterbacked them to the NFC championship game in their second season in the league.



But two years later, plagued by problems with alcohol, he walked into the office of coach Dom Capers and said he had to quit. The Panthers released him and he was picked up for the rest of the season by New Orleans.



The Giants signed him in 1999, and they helped rehabilitate his life and career. He started seven games that season. The next, Collins led them to the NFC championship, throwing for 381 yards and five touchdowns in a 41-0 win over Minnesota in the conference title game.



In the Super Bowl two weeks later, he was 15-of-39 for 112 yards with four interceptions in a 34-7 loss to Baltimore. That contrast typifies Collins -- he is among the best in the game when protected, but limited by a lack of mobility and vulnerable to pressure.



Still, he started 67 straight games before spraining his ankle last season, when the Giants' horrible offensive line was the main factor in their 4-12 finish.



That finish put them in position to have a shot at Manning because it gave them the fourth overall pick in the draft.


Neil O'Donnell has drawn interest from the Giants as a replacement to Collins and backup/tutor/mentor to Manning. According to the New York Post, the Giants inquired about O'Donnell last weekend in the hours after trading for Manning.


"Neil is intrigued and flattered; they think highly of him," O'Donnell's agent, Steve Rosner, told the Post.


O'Donnell's career was thought to be over once he was released by the Titans late in training camp last year. But with Steve McNair and Billy Volek out with injuries, Tennessee was desperate for a QB and wound up signing O'Donnell, who started the team's regular-season finale and threw for 232 yards and two scores.


O'Donnell, a 15-year veteran, turns 38 on July 3.


Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

[albionmoonlight]

I would take $7 million of salary and bonus to be Manning's backup. Collins is not going to get anything close to that kind of money on the post-draft open market.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The competition is already in camp in Drew Henson. He doesn't have a realistic chance to win of course, but think about it from Quincy's point of view: he's already been replaced once in his career by a quarterback who hadn't played football in four years, he should realize it can happen again. If that's not motivating enough, then nothing would be. He isn't getting it handed to him, he earned a chance based on his play last year to have a look this year to see if he can improve staying with the same offensive system for two years after starting for a full year and with an improved line / running game. If not, he doesn't have a future as a starter in Dallas (or probably anywhere). The Cowboys like their 3rd stringer Romo too, also in his second year. I'm thinking they'll wait and see what they can get from Romo and Henson to figure out if they need to have a veteran backup and then go from there (oh yes, Hutchinson will be released soon I would think...I'm not sure they'll even waste time taking him to camp).

Heson needs a year or two to learn the pro game before he ever steps foot on the field. If he gets into any games this year, the Cowboys are in deep shit. Not only would Henson likely get his ass handed to him on the field, but there's a good chance that it could stunt his develpment like it did with Hutch.

Speaking of Hutch, he didn't beat out Q two years ago for the starting spot. Coslet just had a boner for Hutch and wanted to see him in the game while at the same time he hated Q. Quincy never got a fair shot two years ago, and it hurt his development. Coslet was a pox on this team, and it continues to haunt the team to this day...

I would say that Romo is probably gone soon, as well as Hutch. There's no doubt in my mind that he Cowboys are going to pick up a veterean QB this summer, be it Collins, Testeverde, or some other vet who can pass on some of the tricks of the trade while providing a little competition. I'm sure the Cowboys brass are hoping that Hutch can play decent in NFLE this summer so that they can actually get something for him instead of just having to release him outright...

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I would take $7 million of salary and bonus to be Manning's backup. Collins is not going to get anything close to that kind of money on the post-draft open market.

If Collins has been smart with his money since he was drafted, or even just smart with what the Giants have paid him, I'm sure money means nothing to him by now.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I would take $7 million of salary and bonus to be Manning's backup. Collins is not going to get anything close to that kind of money on the post-draft open market.

Ah, but you're missing the point. Collins was supposed to get $7 million in salary this year, and he counted another $1.95 million against the cap because of the pro-rated portion of his last bonus.

The Giants claim that he wouldn't have taken a pay cut, per se, because they would have done something like sign him to, say, a 4 year deal with a $7 million bonus and base salaries at or about the league miniumum for the first two years. So Collins loses no money THIS year, but instead of being a free agent next season with the ability to sign another decent contract & bonus, he sits around making minimum wage, with the knowledge that he's going to get cut at the end of the year, and the Giants only take a $3 million or so cap hit at that point (maybe less if they cut him late... I dunno).

It would be a shit deal for Collins if he knows his days there are already numbered. He's better off on the open market, because he'll make comparable (or better) money elsewhere, and will likely have a good chance to start.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Despite the fact that this would just crush whatever's left of Drew Brees's psyche... I like this.

Yeah, Brees must be taking a mental beating out there. When they started Doug Flutie in those meaningless games the last 2 years.... mega-ouch.

And I would think strictly from a P.R. persepctive the Chargers might further consider Collins. He gives you some help this year and can further help you concvince your fans you got the better end of the deal (although ultimately, time will tell).

While I guess I appluad his tough stance on this, I think Collins and his agent should have taken a long look at the QB situation of the 31 other teams before making a decision here.

And If he can't find a situation where he's either openly battling for the starting job or likely to be starting by year-end, I do hope he and the Jets start considering each other. The more I think about it, the more I think that would make sense as a 1 year marriage. No need to relocate the family twice if you can ultimately acheive the same thing (a starting job in 2005) by staying in the same place. Knowing the sensibility of making him their #2, I'm now convinced the Jets front office won't even consider it.

[Bad-example]

I don't know where Collins will end up but there is little doubt he will get another shot somewhere.

Of course, few people know how to get another shot better than he does

[SFL Cat]

I feel like going out on a limb. I predict Kerry will sign with Donald Trump's team (New York or South Florida) in a new renegade spring football league.

[JAG]

Of course, now a report surfaces saying Jerry Jones would like to talk to Collins, so that shows what I know.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Another QB looks to be cut pretty soon, Charlie Batch seems to be on his way out in Pittsburgh. I wonder if he'll find another place, there really seems to be a glut of average and/or aging QBs on the market this year...

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Of course, now a report surfaces saying Jerry Jones would like to talk to Collins, so that shows what I know.

Toldja!