OOTP 6..has everything smoothed out?

[JeffNights]

Want to purchase the 6th version as the baseball bug has sunk its wallet-draining teeth into me.

So is everything cool? all bugs gone?

[McSweeny]

i've been playing it ever since the latest patch came out and i've been having a blast. I've got a nice 16 team fictional league going and i've been really enjoying it. Some people are complaining about the speed being slower with the new patch, but it doesn't seem to be all that bad for me.

[JeffNights]

oih yeah thats another thing....i wanted to get FBCB but damn it doesnt really run on win 98, which is what i have...

i heard there were problems with win 98 speed issues wiuth ootp6

[nilodor]

I've found the speed unbareable in the new patch so I have gone back to the 1st patch and am enjoying it quite a bit. The sim speed is fine but when it finishes a day, week or month it takes 15-20 seconds, which considering how many days there are, is nuts.

[Ragone]

No, its not smoothed out.. cpu still can't handle the waivers.. trade ai is still stupidish even with very hard and slanting it against me by heavy favoring prospects

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by JeffNights

Want to purchase the 6th version as the baseball bug has sunk its wallet-draining teeth into me.

So is everything cool? all bugs gone?

Actually every patch makes it worse.

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Actually every patch makes it worse.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by FBPro

Have you not played the game? It's unplayable as a solo game. The roster AI is so bad it's laughable.

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Have you not played the game? It's unplayable as a solo game. The roster AI is so bad it's laughable.

Opinion=they are like arm pits, everyone's got'em and they stink.

Yes, I've played it and still do.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by FBPro

Opinion=they are like arm pits, everyone's got'em and they stink.

Yes, I've played it and still do.

That's some funny stuff.

[Ragone]

I dunno how you can still play it when every year a team waives some of its top prospects because they traded for some veteran at or near the trade deadline.. how hard could it be to have the ai notice someone has options left before waiving..

[CraigSca]

As I said before, Markus is aware of this problem. We're hoping to have this rectified soon.

-Craig

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by Ragone

I dunno how you can still play it when every year a team waives some of its top prospects because they traded for some veteran at or near the trade deadline.. how hard could it be to have the ai notice someone has options left before waiving..

Because I actually play my games out and not sim 6 seasons a week or something like that. Some folks DO play that way.

[Ragone]

Thats just it fbpro.. i played every game in my first year... saw zack greinke and lubanski (both of the royals top prospects) get waived.. pretty much ruined it for me..

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Thats just it fbpro.. i played every game in my first year... saw zack greinke and lubanski (both of the royals top prospects) get waived.. pretty much ruined it for me..

I agree that is a pretty crazy move, and it would ruin the game for me. I'll give Marcus the benefit of the doubt based on prior moves that this will be fixed.

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Thats just it fbpro.. i played every game in my first year... saw zack greinke and lubanski (both of the royals top prospects) get waived.. pretty much ruined it for me..

Ok, well I haven't gotten that far but do trust that things will be fixed if they are that messed up.

[dawgfan]

Is it naive of me to think that if Jim or CraigSca ever made their own baseball sims that they would be superior to OOTP...?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Thats just it fbpro.. i played every game in my first year... saw zack greinke and lubanski (both of the royals top prospects) get waived.. pretty much ruined it for me..

I've seen the same things and it's been shelved for now.


Todd

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Have you not played the game? It's unplayable as a solo game. The roster AI is so bad it's laughable.

I have heard from some for years that OOTP solo is unplayable. Are you saying that gamers like me and many others who have enjoyed hundreds of hours playing OOTP solo are stupid? Or perhaps you are using a little hyperbole?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Ragone

No, its not smoothed out.. cpu still can't handle the waivers.. trade ai is still stupidish even with very hard and slanting it against me by heavy favoring prospects

The trade AI in version 5.0c (or whatever the latest was) was quite good. Are you saying it has regressed?

[nilodor]

I've turned waivers off and haven't noticed any hot prospects getting cut from their teams.

[kingnebwsu]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Is it naive of me to think that if Jim or CraigSca ever made their own baseball sims that they would be superior to OOTP...?

Naive? Nope.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Is it naive of me to think that if Jim or CraigSca ever made their own baseball sims that they would be superior to OOTP...?

Not at all. It would be nice to see either of them do a baseball sim.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I have heard from some for years that OOTP solo is unplayable. Are you saying that gamers like me and many others who have enjoyed hundreds of hours playing OOTP solo are stupid? Or perhaps you are using a little hyperbole?

I've played it for years solo. Right this second because of the waiver AI it's unplayable with the new roster rules.

[Ksyrup]

I've said this before, but I think it's worth repeating...I've enjoyed OOTP as a solo game by simply playing "within the game." What I mean by that is, if I've decided to take over a project team, I don't go out the first year and replace 7 position players and 3/4 of my pitching staff. You might be able to do that through free agency, trades, waivers, etc., in the game - but that's unrealistic. So don't do it. It's as simple as that.

What I do is evaluate my current guys under contract, decide who I can live with, who needs to go (is utterly worthless), and who I have in the minors who deserves a shot at a starting position. If a guy is marginal and has a year or two left on his contract, he stays. If a guy sucks and I've got a 3-star AAA prospect, one guy goes or is benched and the other gets the first shot at starting. That usually leaves me with just a few holes to patch up by way of trades and free agency.

I could go out and buy myself an entirely new team...but that kinda ruins the fun of the game, I think. The fun, IMO, is making the decisions about which current players should stay and who in the minors are the legit prospects, then trying to fill in around them with free agents and trades. Just pretend you're a GM in the MLB, not situated in NY or Boston, and have to build a team realistically. That means making the decision to let a great player go at age 32 when you've got a 22 year old sitting in AAA, or deciding whether to extend a 27 year old pitcher who's shown steady improvement but has yet to break out.

Now, if you take over a contending team, then you do what you can to win it all right then. Once that current crop of players runs their cycle, you don't go out and buy all new ones, you rebuild using a mixture of prospects, trades, and free agents. You have some good years, great years, and bad years (maybe even some terrible years). It's a challenge, it's fun, it's about as close as you can come to approximating how baseball really works...what's so hard about playing "within the game?"

As far as this particular issue, yes, it's a game-stopper for me. But it sounds like it is going to be fixed pretty soon. I've never found the trade AI to be bad - I've never been able to fleece the AI for great prospects by trading an overpriced aging player, or been abel to steal a star for 4 or 5 crappy (non)prospects. Occasionally, I'm able to get an extra marginal prospect or include a marginal contract I want to unload, but nothing too outof the ordinary that I would call the AI "laughable."

It's a game - treat it like one.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I've said this before, but I think it's worth repeating...I've enjoyed OOTP as a solo game by simply playing "within the game." What I mean by that is, if I've decided to take over a project team, I don't go out the first year and replace 7 position players and 3/4 of my pitching staff. You might be able to do that through free agency, trades, waivers, etc., in the game - but that's unrealistic. So don't do it. It's as simple as that.

I guess people wish they didn't need to have this "house rule" in place. If it isn't realistic, you wouldn't be able to do all those things in CM or EHM:FE.

Hopefully now that OOTP will be developed by SI, things will change for the better.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Karim

I guess people wish they didn't need to have this "house rule" in place. If it isn't realistic, you wouldn't be able to do all those things in CM or EHM:FE.

I find it ironic that people bitch and moan about wanting the games they play to be as realistic as possible, and then they bitch and moan about how easy the games are when they play them in an unrealistic manner. If it is unacceptable that OOTP did not have waivers, 40-man rosters, service time, Rule 5 drafts, etc., (i.e., the "realistic" components of baseball), then why is it acceptable for you to play the game far outside the bounds of what exists in real life baseball? Teams don't just sign every free agent they want and trade for the top 5 prospects in the league in real life, so why would you attempt to do so in a game that you want to be challenging?

At this point, a good human player can master - not just beat, but clobber - computer AI in text sims. That's a fact. So why try to take advantage of an obviously weaker opponent, and then bitch because you can do so? It's a given, be it OOTP, FOF, CM, you name it.

[LionsFan10]

Excellent point, Ksyrup. I second that thought, although I still haven't really played too much OOTP (too much time spent with Championship Manager Season 03/04), I can understand perfectly where you're coming from and the argument you are making.

I find that, in general, I'm not the greatest OOTP/CM/FOF player so I find that I don't have to look for ways to restrain myself anyway. The way I play the game, I don't need 18 billion house rules just to sim a game, and another 20 while I'm in free agency. The waiver bug cannot be denied, and it does hurt to know that it's happening but I guess I can look past it until it's fixed, and hopefully it will be fixed soon.

[miked]

Interesting point, but I like to see realism coming from everyone else if I am playing solo. Watching a bunch of AI teams waive top prospects and all-stars isn't really cutting it for me regardless of whether or not I choose to pick them up. Also, the computer seems to make countless, random trades for no particular reason. I've seen teams with a Bagwell-type 1B, trade a stud C for a Delgado-type 1B, then go around and create another hole trying to make up for losing a catcher.

It's been, what 6 weeks? The waivers are still a mess, nobody can seem to figure out a good method for working waivers and such in an online league (without turning the system on and off), cash is disappearing, still no promised head-to-head play (not that I care that much), and I'm sure a bit more.

I've owned every version since the original, but I still don't think v6 is a HUGE upgrade over v5 YET. It can be if things are implemented correctly and fixed, and is already the best game on the market. The new engine is great, but I don't think this has been the best release.

I'd probably wait for one more patch.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

At this point, a good human player can master - not just beat, but clobber - computer AI in text sims. That's a fact. So why try to take advantage of an obviously weaker opponent, and then bitch because you can do so? It's a given, be it OOTP, FOF, CM, you name it.

This is why I don't set my lineups or manage my team myself. Don't need another place to gain an advantage. I let the AI set my lineups and I live with it. I just can't live with the AI waiving their best young prospects like clockwork, it's awful.

I know it's a known issue. I just don't see how the patch got released in this format. It's not like we are playing some unique size league or one at an odd stage in it's development.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm not in the "bitch and moan" contingent on this one, since I've decided to keep my money in my pocket for now, but it seems to me you're missing one key point in all this.

Teams don't just sign every free agent they want ... in real life

Agreed.

... and trade for the top 5 prospects in the league in real life

Agreed again.

But ... they would if they could. They don't do those things because there are constraints (irl) that prevent them.

And until the sim user can't, then it seems to me that people (or at least those who want a realistic experience) are likely to continue to bitch and moan. And AFAIC, if they paid their money, that's their right.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But ... they would if they could. They don't do those things because there are constraints (irl) that prevent them.

And I guess my point is, people simply have to accept that there comes a time when you have to use your imagination - God forbid - to make a "simulation" of a sports league seem as if it's the real thing. Is that so hard for people to realize?

Game developers will continue to attempt to bring us the most realistic gaming experience they can, but as good as these games are and as far as we've come, we're still nowhere close to mimicking every aspect of real-life sports. As soon as you accept that fact, you can effectively deal with the unfortunate "realities" of playing text sims, and actually enjoy yourself.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And I guess my point is, people simply have to accept that there comes a time when you have to use your imagination - God forbid - to make a "simulation" of a sports league seem as if it's the real thing. Is that so hard for people to realize?

Game developers will continue to attempt to bring us the most realistic gaming experience they can, but as good as these games are and as far as we've come, we're still nowhere close to mimicking every aspect of real-life sports. As soon as you accept that fact, you can effectively deal with the unfortunate "realities" of playing text sims, and actually enjoy yourself.

A lot of what you say is true. However the AI was better after patch 1 then it is after patch 2. It's just frustrating to see the step backwards.

I will also say that there is better AI out there then OOTP's. Hopefully the move to SI will really improve the game.

[Ksyrup]

Also, let me say that I'm reacting to the more general issues people have with OOTP and other games, not the specific waiver issue referred to above. Even with FOF, which is a far tighter game AI-wise for solo players, people consistently complain about how easy it is to abuse the AI. I could have that problem if I chose to, but I don't.

While I agree the waiver issue is a game-stopper at this moment, I also think you guys are disounting how many variables there are in creating these kinds of games. AFAIK, this waiver issue only popped up with the last patch, which suggests to me that this wasn't a basic design default that slipped through the entire process, but an unintended issue that was caused by tweaking the game to make it more realistic in another area. They know about it, and it'll be fixed. That's good enough for me.

[Buccaneer]

It's too bad an optional feature like waivers (which wasn't in OOTP5, a highly rated and enjoyable game for many, including here) is what's sticking in some people's craw when everyone was excited about the DIPS engine and improved player development. Those were what we all wanted since OOTP3, right?

Also, no one answered my question. Most felt that the trade AI in the last patch of v.5 was good. Did they regress in that area in v.6 or was it the usual hyperbolic rant?

[Ragone]

The Varying Levels of Difficulty and Favoring Prospects only affect trades You generate to computer controlled teams.. not ai to ai trades..

I think its a shitty trade engine myself.. having to force myself to use house rules is not a suitable fix in my mind

[Ksyrup]

Bucc, to answer your question, I haven't played v6 enough to notice a difference. However, I must say that I've never really seen an instance when I was able to outright rob an AI team in a trade. Again, though, that goes back to the fact that I haven't really tried to trade a 38 year old, 1 star pitcher signed for 3 more years at $7M/year for a 5 star, 22 year old pitching prospect.

If people are able to make those kinds of trades, again I have to ask - what in the hell are you even trying that kind of a trade for, if you want a challenging, realistic gaming experience?! If you don't try it, it can't happen.

[Buccaneer]

But that's just it, in 5.0c (I think) you couldn't have done that.

[MizzouRah]

It's weird, but for the first time, I'm ready for a league with ootp. The "solo" play just isn't there for me right now. My fingers are crossed for EHM:FE - I'm really interested to play an SI game.

Bring on the DKBL!


Todd

[LionsFan10]

I too am interested in a league, any openings let me know!

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm going to borrow your example -- for the purpose of the point I'm trying to illustrate, it's irrelevant whether it's happening or not - it's just meant to be an example.

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

If you don't try it, it can't happen.

And what if the AI is conducting the sort of trade you describe between two AI teams? You aren't involved in the deal, but that sort of deal happens anyway. What then?

Point being -- if the AI is experiencing a significant flaw, then what's the gamer to do but complain? That is, presuming they simply don't buy at all.

While other users might prefer the latter, I'm guessing that most developers prefer the former.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm going to borrow your example -- for the purpose of the point I'm trying to illustrate, it's irrelevant whether it's happening or not - it's just meant to be an example.


And what if the AI is conducting the sort of trade you describe between two AI teams? You aren't involved in the deal, but that sort of deal happens anyway. What then?

The difference between your example and what people are complaining about, though, is significant. If, hypothetically, there's a flaw that is affecting AI trades as well as human trades, then I think that's a problem. It's a completely different situation, though - one "problem" you have control over, the other you don't, so it is adversely affecting the realism of the game regardless of what you do. That's not the case here.

[cincyreds]

Call me a baseball nut. But I am in year 2016 in my OOTP6 career league.

I just enjoy simming the games and managing the rosters.

But I have also seen the wacky trade AI. The CPU will offer me a 1-star player that is usually 35-36 yrs old on the decline and trying to shed themselves of the big contract for any prospect that I have that has at least 4 stars.

Whenever I get a trade offer, I just ignore it and move on.

But I do enjoy the game. I am just hoping that the wacky trade AI will get fixed for good.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The difference between your example and what people are complaining about, though, is significant. If, hypothetically, there's a flaw that is affecting AI trades as well as human trades, then I think that's a problem. It's a completely different situation, though - one "problem" you have control over, the other you don't, so it is adversely affecting the realism of the game regardless of what you do. That's not the case here.

I believe there is a flaw with AI trades. The AI has absolutely no direction when they trade. Moreso than in v2, but I still see the AI trading for great players when they already have a great player at that position, then go out and deal their incumbent for the hole they made (i.e. trade a 4* OF for a 4* 2B, then trade their 4.5* 2B for a 4* OF. Since the earliest versions, it has seemed the the AI just trades for the sake of trading. It's getting *very* slowly better, but this has been a problem. Add to that the fact that, regardless of human involvement the AI can't seem to understand waivers and makes for shaky simulation without the human involvement. Like I said earlier, it's been 6 weeks (or more) and the patches make it better, but still don't fix important issues.

[rdomico]

I am playing a fictional league. I play out every game so I am only about a month into the season. I've played the whole season on version 6.02a.

I've seen a lot of player movement, but I've haven't noticed any good 4-5 star prospects getting released. When is the season is this happening? Is in happening as much when using fictional leagues? I know the "real" rosters that people download are loaded with 4-5 star prospects in the minors. Since I am using a fictional league, my minor leagues are a lot less populated with good players.

I am wondering if I should wait until the next patch is out to continue my season?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by miked

I believe there is a flaw with AI trades. The AI has absolutely no direction when they trade. Moreso than in v2, but I still see the AI trading for great players when they already have a great player at that position, then go out and deal their incumbent for the hole they made (i.e. trade a 4* OF for a 4* 2B, then trade their 4.5* 2B for a 4* OF. Since the earliest versions, it has seemed the the AI just trades for the sake of trading. It's getting *very* slowly better, but this has been a problem. Add to that the fact that, regardless of human involvement the AI can't seem to understand waivers and makes for shaky simulation without the human involvement. Like I said earlier, it's been 6 weeks (or more) and the patches make it better, but still don't fix important issues.

Your mixing apples and oranges here. I was responding to a previous email about a hypothetical problem where the AI was making ridiculously one-sided trades with itself, in addition to permitting human players to do so. Your issue, which is real, is different, but I agree that I would like to see that aspect of the trading AI tightened up even further. I believe I recall reading that there was talk of trying to implement some sort of AI that would address each team's specific circumstances - i.e., team out of contention sells off its vets to rebuild, team in contention tries to trade for "missing piece" in pennant drive, young team not in contention but with hope for the future doesn't sell off good players (I hope to see something like this), etc.

The waiver issue has already been acknowledged as an issue that is getting looked at.

[miked]

That would be awesome, if each team could recognize it's weakness/strengths and record, and go into a "mode" or something. Right now, the favor prospects/favor veterans thing is global I believe, making it more or less useless. I would love to see individual AI managers/owners with different personalities and different methodoligies. I would gladly pay $50 if they could figure that out.

I'm trying to remember if it was Tony Larussa Baseball 3 or something that had AI managers that favored speed, power, pitching, defense....

[JimboJ]

How is the in-game manager AI? I'm hearing some bad stuff about the GM AI, but not much about the in-game AI. I like to play all my games out, and typically only get through two or three seasons in a year, so I'm not real concerned about the GM stuff. I'm more concerned with having a smart computer manager opponent, who creates logical lineups, knows when to pinch hit, when to bring in relievers, hit and run, intentional walk, etc. I've played previous versions of OOTP where this area was kind of weak, but I haven't heard much about the latest version. Any opinions?