Pre-NBA Draft Thread or My team traded who for what?

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

The Mavs are dreaming if they think they can get Shaq without trading Dirk.

The Lakers are dreaming if they think Dirk is going to be involved in any trade. The Lakers are also fooling themselves if they think they can hold out and get Dirk, J. O'neal, Marion/Stoudamire, or something similar. They can hold out and look for better deals, but there isn't going to be a better one than Dallas is offering and if Phoenix gets Nash away from Dallas a potential deal with them is gone in all likelyhood. A team like Dallas and Indiana are already pretty good, and they aren't going to be dealing away their best player, especially in the cases of Dirk and J. O'neal. Dirk is 26 and O'neal is 25. They are both locked up long-term. A GM would be a fool to include either of those in trade with the Lakers.

I think a lot of people are overestimating Shaq's trade value right now. With Shaq's weight and health problems, he's probably got 3 really good years in him. He's never been a guy thats kept himself in good shape and he's got around $60 million due to him over the next 2 years. You can either have Dirk for the next 10 years or Shaq for 3-4.

I'm not trying to say Shaq isn't worth more, thats debatable, its just a team isn't going to destroy what they've been building for several seasons to get him. The Lakers aren't in the power position here, they have a player demanding a trade and just looked like fools in the finals. Shaq is going to be moved, everyone knows it, its just a matter of time before they just take the best offer out there.

[rkmsuf]

I don't think it's a lock that Shaq is moved. Take what he says with a grain of salt. For the right deal yes.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Bah. He gives up at least as much as he scores down there. He can't match up with Martin, Jermaine O'Neil, Webber, Ben Wallace and the like.

The only prayer he has against those is throwing up threes since he's a little quick out on the perimeter.

If he felt he could dominate as you say believe me he'd be in the blocks. There's a reason he continually drifts to the outside.

Walker can score inside on just about anyone when he so chooses. His love for the 3 really didn't start until the '00-'01 season. He would drift out there occasionally before then, but he stayed inside most of the time and did pretty good. He goes outside not because he can't score inside, but because he makes just enough 3's to make him think he's a shooter.

Walker has also hasn't had a coach with a structured offense in that time. O'brien was didn't care what the C's did on offense as long they played good team defense. Everyone knows what Nelson's offensive philosophy is.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by The_herd

The Lakers are dreaming if they think Dirk is going to be involved in any trade. The Lakers are also fooling themselves if they think they can hold out and get Dirk, J. O'neal, Marion/Stoudamire, or something similar. They can hold out and look for better deals, but there isn't going to be a better one than Dallas is offering and if Phoenix gets Nash away from Dallas a potential deal with them is gone in all likelyhood. A team like Dallas and Indiana are already pretty good, and they aren't going to be dealing away their best player, especially in the cases of Dirk and J. O'neal. Dirk is 26 and O'neal is 25. They are both locked up long-term. A GM would be a fool to include either of those in trade with the Lakers.

I think a lot of people are overestimating Shaq's trade value right now. With Shaq's weight and health problems, he's probably got 3 really good years in him. He's never been a guy thats kept himself in good shape and he's got around $60 million due to him over the next 2 years. You can either have Dirk for the next 10 years or Shaq for 3-4.

I'm not trying to say Shaq isn't worth more, thats debatable, its just a team isn't going to destroy what they've been building for several seasons to get him. The Lakers aren't in the power position here, they have a player demanding a trade and just looked like fools in the finals. Shaq is going to be moved, everyone knows it, its just a matter of time before they just take the best offer out there.

I like this post. I always as curious as why the Lakers expect everyone to trade the future that these teams have? Shaq is 32, he's miss a few games the last few years, and only has a certain number of years left in him.

I know the draft is pretty deep (deepest in years?), but is it just me, or is it not getting your attention. Also, when does the current CBA expire?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Walker can score inside on just about anyone when he so chooses. His love for the 3 really didn't start until the '00-'01 season. He would drift out there occasionally before then, but he stayed inside most of the time and did pretty good. He goes outside not because he can't score inside, but because he makes just enough 3's to make him think he's a shooter.

Walker has also hasn't had a coach with a structured offense in that time. O'brien was didn't care what the C's did on offense as long they played good team defense. Everyone knows what Nelson's offensive philosophy is.

That is just so wrong and I'm dumbfounded as to the statement "Walker can score inside on just about anyone when he so chooses."

Pick a season...show me this domination. I can come up with zero examples.

Was it his 42% shooting and 22 a game in 97 or was it 99 when he went house and shot a career high 43% and dropped in 20?

He actually scored more shooting 3's as opposed to using his superior inside skills. When you look at it he shoots 32% from 3 for his career which is actually pretty good. I think he is what he is and any notion of turning him into a force inside is grounded in fantasyland.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Bah. He gives up at least as much as he scores down there. He can't match up with Martin, Jermaine O'Neil, Webber, Ben Wallace and the like.

The only prayer he has against those is throwing up threes since he's a little quick out on the perimeter.

If he felt he could dominate as you say believe me he'd be in the blocks. There's a reason he continually drifts to the outside.

His quickness would be an asset in the post against all those guys. He has as much talent as any of the guys you mention, and infinitely more than Martin.

The problem with Antoine has always been that he believes he can be (actually, he believes he is) a dominant, face the basket, sweet shooting small forward. Going into the paint in the NBA is hard, therefore it is too much bother for Walker. However, that does not mean he did not enter the league with the ability to be very effective there. He just wasted said talent.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

That is just so wrong and I'm dumbfounded as to the statement "Walker can score inside on just about anyone when he so chooses."

Pick a season...show me this domination. I can come up with zero examples.

You seem to be having trouble differentiating "have the talent to" with "being willing to"

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Samdari

You seem to be having trouble differentiating "have the talent to" with "being willing to"

Not really. I don't believe he has the talent and saying he is better than Martin is laughable. You should know, you saw the devastation.

[rkmsuf]

You act like everyone in the NBA including Walker is a complete moron. If domination was possible you'd see him do it at least for one stretch over 8 seasons.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Not really. I don't believe he has the talent and saying he is better than Martin is laughable. You should know, you saw the devastation.

Talent = physical ability, given as a gift from God.

Performance = results, usually proportional to talent*(%of talent realized)

Walker had more of the first than Martin, but due to laziness and lack of awareness about how to best use it, has a % of talent realized of about 10%, while Martin gets the most out of his.

I never said Walker was a better player than Martin, just that he was more talented. He is, he has simply wasted it.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

You act like everyone in the NBA including Walker is a complete moron. If domination was possible you'd see him do it at least for one stretch over 8 seasons.

Every coach he's ever had has tried to get Walker to play inside more. The problem is, walking out onto the court during games and shoving him into the paint is a technical foul.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

I like this post. I always as curious as why the Lakers expect everyone to trade the future that these teams have? Shaq is 32, he's miss a few games the last few years, and only has a certain number of years left in him.

Was it the Sports Guy's column that discussed aging centers? I came away from that with the distinct impression that centers are like catchers - once they've been around for 10-12 years and hit age 32 or so, they start to decline. If Shaq puts up a couple more relatively good, Shaq-like years, it will be interesting tosee what kind of a contract he gets. As part of a trade, I certainly wouldn't give him an extension now.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Every coach he's ever had has tried to get Walker to play inside more. The problem is, walking out onto the court during games and shoving him into the paint is a technical foul.

That is just not true. Pitino told him to play that way and O'Brien concurred. The Mavs even pursued him with this style in mind. Somewhere there has to be that genius that would acquire him to bang right?

Danny needs nothing more than a low post player. Yes Walker is hestiant to go there but I think he knows it's because he'd suck night in and night out banging down there. I don't believe it's because he's lazy.

It's not all the player. His skill set dictates his usage.

My view is that he can be atheletic as the greatest athletes ever but that doesn't translate into applicable skill and in this case we are talking basketball skill and inside game skill. I'm sure he can run rings around Martin(even that is debatable) but he can't stop him nor score on him so he has a far less comparable talent to Martin.

He wasn't even better than Jamison this year on the Mavs. In fact he was far worse in a year that he didn't take the same number of 3's. Jamison managed to shoot 53% in largely the same role Walker occupied.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Pitino told him to play that way

Walker left Kentucky to get away from Pitino telling him he was a center. He most assuredly never told Walker it was ok to spend the entire game chucking up 3s, never entering the paint.

I guess you and I define talent differently. To me talent is something you cannot teach, ever. Skills on the other hand, can be learned. Does Walker have great post up skills? Hell no. Does he have the physical ability to be a dominant post scorer if he wanted to develop those skills? Hell yes. Has he shown flashes of that talent? Yes. Has he ever spent a season where he was willing to post up consistently? No.

I think Walker won't do that because he's lazy, it hurts to play in the post in the NBA, and he has always had a terribly inflated view of how good a wing player he is. He doesn't avoid the post because he thinks he'd be terrible there, he avoids it because he believes he is the best player in the league doing exactly what he's doing. Never underrate the ability of a head case to delude himself.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Walker left Kentucky to get away from Pitino telling him he was a center. He most assuredly never told Walker it was ok to spend the entire game chucking up 3s, never entering the paint.

I guess you and I define talent differently. To me talent is something you cannot teach, ever. Skills on the other hand, can be learned. Does Walker have great post up skills? Hell no. Does he have the physical ability to be a dominant post scorer if he wanted to develop those skills? Hell yes. Has he shown flashes of that talent? Yes. Has he ever spent a season where he was willing to post up consistently? No.

I think Walker won't do that because he's lazy, it hurts to play in the post in the NBA, and he has always had a terribly inflated view of how good a wing player he is. He doesn't avoid the post because he thinks he'd be terrible there, he avoids it because he believes he is the best player in the league doing exactly what he's doing. Never underrate the ability of a head case to delude himself.

It's well documented that Pitino defined Walker's role this way. Maybe not to the extent of the 3 attempts post 00 but he was never the C's low post guy. He was never a center either. He's listed at 6-9 and if I'm not mistaken played the running game in college.

Almost every athletically able/sized body in the NBA has the ability to develop low post scoring if they want to. I don't see Walker's potential any more than any of the others.

He may be delusional in thinking he's lights out from the outside but from what I've seen of his skill set he's no better going against good power forwards. Perhaps if he focussed solely on that he'd be better but that's never going to happen so he is what he is.

I never got the impression he was lazy...just overrated. Maybe Ainge panicked and dealt him too soon but I question what his market was and is now. The Lakers are crazy if they think he's going to help them.