Another Step Toward the End of the World (as we know it)

Scholes · 03-09-2005, 12:22 AM

Article

First we can't keep score at little league games, now they want to get rid of high school sports. Obviously this will get shot down, but I can see this style of thinking progressing over the next few years and I throw up in my mouth just thinking about it.

Scholes · 03-09-2005, 12:23 AM

Apologies in advance if the article doesn't work for all of you, It worked originally when I clicked the link that a friend sent me, now it's making me register. Perhaps a kind soul could paste it if they get in?

MikeVic · 03-09-2005, 12:31 AM

Seems like you are allowed one free view, and then you have to register.
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Last update: March 8, 2005 at 11:28 PM
Bill would strip sports from schools
Norman Draper, Star Tribune
March 9, 2005 SPORTS0309

Imagine rooting for the New Hope Hawks. Not the Cooper High School Hawks. Or joining the booster club for the East Bloomington Eagles. Not the Kennedy High School Eagles. Or, come September, playing football for the Summit/University Minutemen. Not the St. Paul Central Minutemen.

As far-fetched as that sounds, it could happen under a bill authored in the House of Representatives by a liberal DFLer and a conservative Republican. What these two unlikely collaborators would do is strip sports and other extracurricular activities from the schools and turn them over to city park and recreation departments or other community organizations.

Although school districts nationwide have been cutting athletic programs to save money, proposals to completely separate them from schools appear rare.

National organizations of state legislators, school boards and school administrators knew of no similar measures.

Bill authors Mark Buesgens, R-Jordan, and Mindy Greiling, DFL-Roseville, know that they're unlikely to succeed because of strong opposition from schools and parents who feel that extracurriculars are part of the fabric of an education.

But they hope their legislative hand grenade will start some serious debate about whether high school sports in particular have gotten out of hand in terms of the time and money they consume, and in the emphasis some schools place on building superstar teams.

"My goal is to have more extracurriculars for all comers, where everyone can play," said Greiling. She said schools could expand their intramural programs as communities take on the more competitive intramural sports. "I think that's the role of public schools, not to have elite superhero teams that only a few can play on."

Buesgens, an administrator who directs middle school sports in the Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan district, sees too much overlap between school and community sports programs. "When Black Hawk Middle School [in Eagan] basketball practice runs until 5 o'clock, then we have kids running home and shoving food in their mouths, and then running off to their community programs, and then they still have to run home to do homework, something's out of whack," Buesgens said.

'Crazy or what?'

The opposition to the Buesgens-Greiling plan pulls no punches.

"Are these people crazy or what?" asked Lou Kanavati, an area superintendent for St. Paul schools and a board member of the Minnesota State High School League, which regulates school sports and other extracurricular competitions.

"If we want parents and communities controlling who participates rather than people interested in helping young people mature and grow, I'm telling you it would be a big mistake."

Kanavati fears that parent politics would take over athletics if taken out of the schools. He predicted that the 50 percent participation rate in St. Paul school athletics would drop to 20 percent or less.

Although costs of extracurriculars run into the hundreds of thousands, and even millions, of dollars in the larger Minnesota school districts, school officials say they account for a small percentage of what schools spend annually. Kanavati said athletics make up less than 1 percent of the district budget.

Dennis Carlson, assistant to the superintendent of Anoka-Hennepin schools, said his district spends a similar percentage -- about $4 million of its $400 million operating budget -- on extracurricular activities. They're well worth that amount, according to Carlson.

"Our school board feels extracurriculars are nearly an extension of the classroom," he said. "They feel that in high schools of 3,000 kids, they add to motivation, pride, safety, all the good things you want in the high schools. Our school board is trying to figure out ways to get more participation."

Not just sports

Sports wouldn't be the only extracurricular activities affected. According to Greiling, the bill would affect any extracurricular activity governed by the High School League. Those would include speech, debate, one-act plays and band competitions.

It's not the first time shifting or cutting sports has come up. In 2002, the North St. Paul/Maplewood/Oakdale school district warned that all sports and other extracurricular activities could be cut from district schools if voters didn't approve an $11 million-a-year tax levy request. Voters approved. A number of other Minnesota districts this year are considering program cuts or other ways to pay for sports.

What's more common is for districts to raise activity fees -- often more than $100 per sport -- and admission ticket prices to maintain activities.

A typical response to the bill, Buesgens said, is an e-mail from a Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan high school athletic director. "He said, 'Jeez, I always thought you supported sports!' " Buesgens said he does. "I have four kids and they're all athletes. I support athletics. This isn't because I'm some bookworm geek."

Greiling and Buesgens have the support of education reformer Joe Nathan, director of the University of Minnesota's Center for School Change.

"It's long past time to focus more attention on the 'how,' the 'why,' and the 'how much' of extracurricular activities, especially sports," Nathan said.

Greiling said she has gotten calls of support "from just plain old citizens who have been complimentary that we have the guts to do this."

The bill is tentatively scheduled for a hearing at 8:15 a.m. Thursday before the House Education Policy and Reform Committee in room 200 of the State Office Building.

Norman Draper is at [email protected].

MikeVic · 03-09-2005, 12:33 AM

To get around it, you can just remove all cookies from that site.

Klinglerware · 03-09-2005, 10:12 AM

Just to play devil's advocate here, we already have a three-tiered system in place for a lot of sports now (e.g. soccer, basketball) --the traditional high school teams, club/traveling all-star teams for elite athletes, and comprehensive rec leagues sponsored by both municipalities and religious groups. I could see the argument that if the HS sports are a fiscal drain they can be safely eliminated, since there is already a lot of overlap with other opportunities (rec leagues, elite traveling teams, etc.) for kids to play...

BigJohn&TheLions · 03-09-2005, 11:06 AM

The arguement could also be made that disassociating sports from school would remove pressure from teachers to pass athletes to retain eligability.

tategter · 03-09-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

The arguement could also be made that disassociating sports from school would remove pressure from teachers to pass athletes to retain eligability.

I agree, but this thought should also be extended to college. It has always annoyed me that so many free college rides go to kids who can't even write thier names but can catch a football well, while underprivileged smart kids are not given a chance. At what point does a college stop being a learning institution and start being a minor league sports factory?

Raiders Army · 03-09-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

I agree, but this thought should also be extended to college. It has always annoyed me that so many free college rides go to kids who can't even write thier names but can catch a football well, while underprivileged smart kids are not given a chance. At what point does a college stop being a learning institution and start being a minor league sports factory?

While I understand what you're saying, there are also "smart" kids scholarships as well. I received a Provost Scholarship on brains alone when I applied to one college. Other colleges gave me free rides, not to play sports, but to go to school....and although I can catch a football (at least 25% of the time), there are plenty of smart kids out there who have full rides that need an inhaler when they walk a mile. (this is in response to your "can't even write their names but can catch a football well")

Lucky Jim · 03-09-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

I agree, but this thought should also be extended to college. It has always annoyed me that so many free college rides go to kids who can't even write thier names but can catch a football well, while underprivileged smart kids are not given a chance. At what point does a college stop being a learning institution and start being a minor league sports factory?

Most of the schools that are sports factories are state schools. Underpriveleged smart kids really don't have that much trouble getting into and paying for those schools if they have a good academic record and test scores. In fact underpriveleged smart kids often get full ride deals that include some sort of stipend as well, in effect getting paid to go to school. The idea that there are all these people being denied opportunity at these most of the time massive universities by a handful of scholarship athletes is just a little crazy. But it's also something that I think a lot of people believe.

As far as the article goes, I just don't know. It'd be an interesting thing to try.

dawgfan · 03-09-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

I agree, but this thought should also be extended to college. It has always annoyed me that so many free college rides go to kids who can't even write thier names but can catch a football well, while underprivileged smart kids are not given a chance. At what point does a college stop being a learning institution and start being a minor league sports factory?

I think you could persuasively argue that Division 1-A schools are minor league sports factories and have been for a long, long time.

I'll fully admit to being a hypocrite in this matter - while on the one hand I think that our universities shouldn't be awarding scholarships for athletic prowess and limit sports to an intermural level, I also grew up on college football and would hate to see the system change radically.

I think the article above either does a poor job of explaining the 2 legislator's plan, or their plan isn't very well thought-out. The underlying premise isn't inherently bad IMO, but the details are lacking to convince me their idea makes more sense than the current system.

I. J. Reilly · 03-09-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

I agree, but this thought should also be extended to college. It has always annoyed me that so many free college rides go to kids who can't even write thier names but can catch a football well, while underprivileged smart kids are not given a chance. At what point does a college stop being a learning institution and start being a minor league sports factory?

The correlation between K-12 public school and a University, even a state school, is pretty misleading. Public schools operate strictly on tax dollars, with a few exceptions. Universities are completely reliant on donations to meet their budgets. The athletic programs are the best marketing tool that most schools have to attract these donations. So I would argue that the illiterate athlete makes a much greater contribution to his campus then any smart kid does.

Raiders Army · 03-09-2005, 12:26 PM

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Even if you do not have a college-aged child at home, please share this with
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Help to get the word out that money is available. Our youth really could use
these scholarships. If clicking on the link doesn't work try pressing the CTRL
key while clicking. If this doesn't work you will have to type in the Web site
address manually or cut and past.

1) BELL LABS FELLOWSHIPS FOR UNDER REPRESENTED MINORITIES

http://www.bell-labs.com/fellowships/CRFP/info.html

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10) Sports Scholarships and Internships
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49) Graduate Fellowships For Minorities Nationwide
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50) RHODES SCHOLARSHIPS AT OXFORD
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51) The Roothbert Scholarship Fund
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That's not counting Grants or scholarships for non-minorities.

tategter · 03-09-2005, 12:26 PM

My congrats to you RA on your scholorship. Guess I was being too general in my statement. All I'm saying is that high school and college sports should be for the purpose of excercise, not the sole reason for gaining a scholorship.

There are instances where the star quarterback on the team happens to also hold a 4.0gpa in biochemestry. There are also many players who struggle to hold a 2.0gpa in woodshop but still got picked to go to a 1a school because of his 150 tackles. Meanwhile the kid with the inhaler who scored well on his SATs but got passed-over is now flipping burgers for a living. Is that fair?

Bubba Wheels · 03-09-2005, 12:27 PM

I like it. Just another step in decentralizing and finally eliminating the whole public indocrination process. On the university level, college sports is big-time business and should be treated as such, rather than subsidized by taxpayers.

dawgfan · 03-09-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

The correlation between K-12 public school and a University, even a state school, is pretty misleading. Public schools operate strictly on tax dollars, with a few exceptions. Universities are completely reliant on donations to meet their budgets. The athletic programs are the best marketing tool that most schools have to attract these donations. So I would argue that the illiterate athlete makes a much greater contribution to his campus then any smart kid does.

Maybe some states operate differently, but I believe that most if not all state universities are heavily supported by state tax dollars.

As for donations, I would argue that the most significant contributions come through research grants (which have nothing to do with athletics). And there are plenty of successful alumni that donate to their alma mater or other schools in the name of advancing knowledge, not to support their old team. Sure, there are some famous alums that kick in because they love State U's football/basketball team, but most of them are going to contribute directly to the athletic department and not the school itself.

The visibility a school gains from athletics can certainly be a plus - I've been told that the application interest level for Gonzaga has increased markedly in the last decade (ever since the basketball team gained attention for their success), and I know that the new UW President is an advocate of sports because of their PR effect for the school. But I would debate the contention that the athletes bring more donations to the school than the "smart" kids. Bill Gates doesn't give a rip about college sports, but I suspect he's donated as much to universities as any sports-crazed donor has.

tategter · 03-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky Jim

Most of the schools that are sports factories are state schools. Underpriveleged smart kids really don't have that much trouble getting into and paying for those schools if they have a good academic record and test scores. In fact underpriveleged smart kids often get full ride deals that include some sort of stipend as well, in effect getting paid to go to school. The idea that there are all these people being denied opportunity at these most of the time massive universities by a handful of scholarship athletes is just a little crazy. But it's also something that I think a lot of people believe.

As far as the article goes, I just don't know. It'd be an interesting thing to try.

There are a lot of academic scholarships given out, but even a single athletic-only scholarship is too many IMHO. He/she is taking a seat that belongs to someone more academically inclined.

As for the reply about illiterate athletes contributing more to his/her university because of the increased university donations caused by athletic prowess is a sad fact of life. People will pay to be associated with winners, even amateur ones. To hell with the real reason the university exists.

Raiders Army · 03-09-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

There are a lot of academic scholarships given out, but even a single athletic-only scholarship is too many IMHO. He/she is taking a seat that belongs to someone more academically inclined.

My intention is not to provoke an argument. Could you explain why you believe that it is wrong for an athlete is taking a seat to someone more "academically" inclined? In my opinion, I believe that the athlete provides at the very least, entertainment...that is, entertainment I would pay to see.

Contrast that with an "academically" inclined student who receives a scholarship for playing the flute well (and this happens). This student also provides entertainment...that is, entertainment I would pay to see. What is the difference?

BrianD · 03-09-2005, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

As for the reply about illiterate athletes contributing more to his/her university because of the increased university donations caused by athletic prowess is a sad fact of life. People will pay to be associated with winners, even amateur ones. To hell with the real reason the university exists.

People paying to be associated with winners help to keep these universities in existence. It may be a sad fact, but it is a fact.

Desnudo · 03-09-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Just to play devil's advocate here, we already have a three-tiered system in place for a lot of sports now (e.g. soccer, basketball) --the traditional high school teams, club/traveling all-star teams for elite athletes, and comprehensive rec leagues sponsored by both municipalities and religious groups. I could see the argument that if the HS sports are a fiscal drain they can be safely eliminated, since there is already a lot of overlap with other opportunities (rec leagues, elite traveling teams, etc.) for kids to play...

Kids with money to pay for travel, equipment, etc.. Sports have been eliminated at the charter schools in Seattle. Like the daughter of one of my old co-workers went to a performing arts school (public) and they had no sports or gym class. I found this disheartening.

I believe that a well-rounded individual is capable of more than just math equations or throwing a football. Education does include athletics, even though it doesn't involve a textbook.

tategter · 03-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

My intention is not to provoke an argument. Could you explain why you believe that it is wrong for an athlete is taking a seat to someone more "academically" inclined? In my opinion, I believe that the athlete provides at the very least, entertainment...that is, entertainment I would pay to see.

Contrast that with an "academically" inclined student who receives a scholarship for playing the flute well (and this happens). This student also provides entertainment...that is, entertainment I would pay to see. What is the difference?

I don't want to start a racial argument, but why are only minorities on your list? Isn't the very definition of racism to promote one race over another? To answer the question in your head I am white, but believe race should not factor at all when gaining assistance of any kind.

Guess my point about it being wrong for an athlete to take away a seat is that academic institutions should be all about academics, with sports and other extra-curricular activities only enhancing the college experience. Wanting to pay to see an orchestra or football game is fine because it helps pay for the athletic program. There is nothing wrong with college athletics, only the practice of giving scholarships to kids purely for non-academic reasons.

I. J. Reilly · 03-09-2005, 01:14 PM

There certainly are athletes who would not be admitted without there physical skills, but I don’t see this as “taking the place” of a more worthy student. Most elite universities that have a finite number for Freshman enrollment do not make exceptions for athletes, it is the large state schools that do. These schools generally admit anyone who qualifies. It’s my understanding, someone jump in if I’m wrong, that many states allocate tax dollars to universities based on enrollment. The Gonzaga increased enrollment example is one more way that a successful athletic program benefits the school.
I guess my confusion is the idea that athletics hampers academics on campus. I just don’t get that.

weinstein7 · 03-09-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Sports wouldn't be the only extracurricular activities affected. According to Greiling, the bill would affect any extracurricular activity governed by the High School League. Those would include speech, debate, one-act plays and band competitions.

To me, this is the bigger issue. You could make an argument that sports would be better if taken out of the schools, but I don't think you could replace the experience of school newspapers, debate team, drama club, etc.

Personally, I don't like the idea of taking sports completely out of the schools (as someone pointed out, there already exists a substantial parallel youth sports universe independent of school), but I can see merits to the argument.

Noop · 03-09-2005, 01:26 PM

tategter the Football team is usually a cash cow that funds most college projects. Like a new Library, New building, etc... I believe your being narrow minded...

Klinglerware · 03-09-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

tategter the Football team is usually a cash cow that funds most college projects. Like a new Library, New building, etc... I believe your being narrow minded...

Actually, very few programs actually make enough to reallocate excess revenue to non-athletic pursuits. Those that do shift the profits towards their "non-revenue" sports. Most of the top academic schools (Ivy, MIT, CalTech, etc.) have de-emphasized athletic programs, and have a ton of money from other sources to fund their initiatives.

That said, I enjoy college sports--but as a cash cow, it is pretty overrated. As a marketing tool, it can at times be quite effective (e.g., the Gonzaga example mentioned earlier, B.C.'s academic rise post Flutie, etc.)...

dawgfan · 03-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

tategter the Football team is usually a cash cow that funds most college projects. Like a new Library, New building, etc... I believe your being narrow minded...

Depends on how you mean "cash cow", and what schools you're talking about. Strictly talking the economics of athletic programs, most schools have to subsidize their athletic programs out of their general fund. There are some schools that are successful enough at football that the athletic department can be completely self-funded, but I believe they are in the minority.

Now, if you're talking about the effect successful teams have on fundraising for their schools, that's another story. It's hard to say for sure how much of private donations to universities are due to the success of that school's athletic department, but undoubtably it has an effect. How big an effect is open for debate.

I. J. Reilly · 03-09-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

tategter the Football team is usually a cash cow that funds most college projects. Like a new Library, New building, etc... I believe your being narrow minded...

The quality of accounting in University budgets in notorious at best. I think a lot of times it is politically expedient to show the funds coming from the athletic department instead of another academic program.

JHandley · 03-09-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Depends on how you mean "cash cow", and what schools you're talking about. Strictly talking the economics of athletic programs, most schools have to subsidize their athletic programs out of their general fund. There are some schools that are successful enough at football that the athletic department can be completely self-funded, but I believe they are in the minority.

Now, if you're talking about the effect successful teams have on fundraising for their schools, that's another story. It's hard to say for sure how much of private donations to universities are due to the success of that school's athletic department, but undoubtably it has an effect. How big an effect is open for debate.

There's also the question of whether the donations are being given to the school's general fund or specifically to the athletic department.

I would echo your statement that the number of schools that have a self-sufficient athletic program is very minimal when you consider the whole program.

Raiders Army · 03-09-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tategter

I don't want to start a racial argument, but why are only minorities on your list? Isn't the very definition of racism to promote one race over another? To answer the question in your head I am white, but believe race should not factor at all when gaining assistance of any kind.

Oh, I wasn't wondering what race you were.

The reason why I posted those are twofold. #1, that email was handy. #2, in my mind, most of the underprivileged kids are minorities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by targeter

Guess my point about it being wrong for an athlete to take away a seat is that academic institutions should be all about academics, with sports and other extra-curricular activities only enhancing the college experience. Wanting to pay to see an orchestra or football game is fine because it helps pay for the athletic program. There is nothing wrong with college athletics, only the practice of giving scholarships to kids purely for non-academic reasons.

I don't understand. Music is not an extracurricular activity in most colleges. You receive college credit for it. That's not the only degree you can get that might be looked at as "extracurricular." Art History is another. I think you can get degrees in acting as well. Are these individuals the ones who need college more than an athlete?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you looking at academics as being a "Bachelor of Science" degree or do you include Bachelor of Arts degrees as well?

tategter · 03-09-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Oh, I wasn't wondering what race you were.

The reason why I posted those are twofold. #1, that email was handy. #2, in my mind, most of the underprivileged kids are minorities.

I don't understand. Music is not an extracurricular activity in most colleges. You receive college credit for it. That's not the only degree you can get that might be looked at as "extracurricular." Art History is another. I think you can get degrees in acting as well. Are these individuals the ones who need college more than an athlete?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you looking at academics as being a "Bachelor of Science" degree or do you include Bachelor of Arts degrees as well?

Sorry, guess I get touchy when minority assistance is tossed-out there. Hate it when people get special treatment because of their race. I fully admit we European-Americans did it for centuries, but it still doesn't make it right.

If there was a Bachelor of Football I wouldn't be so adamant about this subject. All I am saying is that giving an athlete a scholarship just because he can help you win ballgames is wrong. How many blue-chip prospects actually care about the degree they are handed on a silver platter? Not the ones that leave early that's for sure. These athletes are taking-up seats that more academic minded students should be in. Whether it be arts, sciences, whatever. Sports should be for students that want to play them, not for students that were brought to the school just because they could play them well.

I fully admit I am being unrealistic about this. Money talks, and as long as scholarship programs bring prestige and money into a school's coffers we will continue to see athletic scholarships. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

JHandley · 03-09-2005, 04:09 PM

Why do athletes get this resentment from you, tategter? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either, but I think that's a pretty fair assesment of how you feel. You resent an athlete "taking away a seat" from a more acedemic minded student. I am also interested in why the pursuit of athletic endeavours is different from the pursuit of art endeavours. Neither really advance the technology of man, but both make the world a more entertaining place to be.

Raiders Army · 03-09-2005, 04:13 PM

Ah, I get you now. You do have a great point that the difference is that I get a BA in Music vs. a BA in Football.

Subby · 03-09-2005, 04:14 PM

You absolutely should NOT keep score in little league games for kids under a certain age...

Klinglerware · 03-09-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHandley

Why do athletes get this resentment from you, tategter? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either, but I think that's a pretty fair assesment of how you feel. You resent an athlete "taking away a seat" from a more acedemic minded student. I am also interested in why the pursuit of athletic endeavours is different from the pursuit of art endeavours. Neither really advance the technology of man, but both make the world a more entertaining place to be.

A couple of points here. Tategter is right in that athletes (as well as elite musicians, artists, and other "special admits") generally have lower admissions credentials compared to the rest of the student body. However, I disagree with the assertion that anybody is "taking away a seat" from anybody. Admissions departments just don't admit students by ranking students by some sort of SAT-GPA combination and going down the list until the class is filled. Even at Ivy League schools, applicants with 4.0 GPA's and 1500 SAT scores are regularly rejected in favor of people who have, say, a 3.7 GPA and a 1350 SAT score plus perhaps a 90 MPH fastball or world class piano ability etc.--and I find nothing wrong with that...

JHandley · 03-09-2005, 05:40 PM

I didn't think he was talking about admissions standards, I thought he was talking about any kind of free ride.

Klinglerware · 03-09-2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHandley

I didn't think he was talking about admissions standards, I thought he was talking about any kind of free ride.

Well, he did make the point that some athletes are taking spots on campus that should go to people more academically qualified--and that does imply that he has an opinion on admissions policy. My point was that the whole idea of who is "qualified" and deserving of admission is subjective and not purely based on academic statistics.

JHandley · 03-09-2005, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Well, he did make the point that some athletes are taking spots on campus that should go to people more academically qualified--and that does imply that he has an opinion on admissions policy. My point was that the whole idea of who is "qualified" and deserving of admission is subjective and not purely based on academic statistics.

I'm with ya and I agree with ya. I just wasn't reading that into what he was saying, but now I see where you're coming from.

Raiders Army · 03-10-2005, 05:29 AM

Also, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are "minority" slots to fill in colleges as well.

Buccaneer · 03-10-2005, 08:52 AM

I have been of the opinion that university-funded/NCAA-run college athletics of the "big" sports should be abolished. Except for some rare cases, "student-athlete" is a sham and very hypocritical. But insomuch sports is a good marketing and social tool, let there be a professional minor league established for football and basketball for college-aged kids. This can be supported by the NFL and NBA, with universities buying rights to field a team (using their name, logo, etc.). Let universities be in the business of academics and not sports. I would also think this would extend down to the HS level in some areas (where prep football and basketball are bigger than many other state's universities). In my HS/college years of living in California, North Carolina and Kentucky, I have personally witnessed and have been party to this hypocrisy.

tategter · 03-10-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHandley

Why do athletes get this resentment from you, tategter? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either, but I think that's a pretty fair assesment of how you feel. You resent an athlete "taking away a seat" from a more acedemic minded student. I am also interested in why the pursuit of athletic endeavours is different from the pursuit of art endeavours. Neither really advance the technology of man, but both make the world a more entertaining place to be.

You are right Handley, I do resent atheletes who are brought into colleges purely for their athletic abilities. My answer is the essence of why higher learning facilities exist in the first place. Is it for entertainment or education? Most seem to think both and I find that just plain wrong. Bucc said it better than I could in that colleges shouldn't be the minor leagues for the NFL or NBA. Make them two seperate entities.

03-09-2005, 12:31 AM	#3
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	Seems like you are allowed one free view, and then you have to register. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last update: March 8, 2005 at 11:28 PM Bill would strip sports from schools Norman Draper, Star Tribune March 9, 2005 SPORTS0309 Imagine rooting for the New Hope Hawks. Not the Cooper High School Hawks. Or joining the booster club for the East Bloomington Eagles. Not the Kennedy High School Eagles. Or, come September, playing football for the Summit/University Minutemen. Not the St. Paul Central Minutemen. As far-fetched as that sounds, it could happen under a bill authored in the House of Representatives by a liberal DFLer and a conservative Republican. What these two unlikely collaborators would do is strip sports and other extracurricular activities from the schools and turn them over to city park and recreation departments or other community organizations. Although school districts nationwide have been cutting athletic programs to save money, proposals to completely separate them from schools appear rare. National organizations of state legislators, school boards and school administrators knew of no similar measures. Bill authors Mark Buesgens, R-Jordan, and Mindy Greiling, DFL-Roseville, know that they're unlikely to succeed because of strong opposition from schools and parents who feel that extracurriculars are part of the fabric of an education. But they hope their legislative hand grenade will start some serious debate about whether high school sports in particular have gotten out of hand in terms of the time and money they consume, and in the emphasis some schools place on building superstar teams. "My goal is to have more extracurriculars for all comers, where everyone can play," said Greiling. She said schools could expand their intramural programs as communities take on the more competitive intramural sports. "I think that's the role of public schools, not to have elite superhero teams that only a few can play on." Buesgens, an administrator who directs middle school sports in the Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan district, sees too much overlap between school and community sports programs. "When Black Hawk Middle School [in Eagan] basketball practice runs until 5 o'clock, then we have kids running home and shoving food in their mouths, and then running off to their community programs, and then they still have to run home to do homework, something's out of whack," Buesgens said. 'Crazy or what?' The opposition to the Buesgens-Greiling plan pulls no punches. "Are these people crazy or what?" asked Lou Kanavati, an area superintendent for St. Paul schools and a board member of the Minnesota State High School League, which regulates school sports and other extracurricular competitions. "If we want parents and communities controlling who participates rather than people interested in helping young people mature and grow, I'm telling you it would be a big mistake." Kanavati fears that parent politics would take over athletics if taken out of the schools. He predicted that the 50 percent participation rate in St. Paul school athletics would drop to 20 percent or less. Although costs of extracurriculars run into the hundreds of thousands, and even millions, of dollars in the larger Minnesota school districts, school officials say they account for a small percentage of what schools spend annually. Kanavati said athletics make up less than 1 percent of the district budget. Dennis Carlson, assistant to the superintendent of Anoka-Hennepin schools, said his district spends a similar percentage -- about $4 million of its $400 million operating budget -- on extracurricular activities. They're well worth that amount, according to Carlson. "Our school board feels extracurriculars are nearly an extension of the classroom," he said. "They feel that in high schools of 3,000 kids, they add to motivation, pride, safety, all the good things you want in the high schools. Our school board is trying to figure out ways to get more participation." Not just sports Sports wouldn't be the only extracurricular activities affected. According to Greiling, the bill would affect any extracurricular activity governed by the High School League. Those would include speech, debate, one-act plays and band competitions. It's not the first time shifting or cutting sports has come up. In 2002, the North St. Paul/Maplewood/Oakdale school district warned that all sports and other extracurricular activities could be cut from district schools if voters didn't approve an $11 million-a-year tax levy request. Voters approved. A number of other Minnesota districts this year are considering program cuts or other ways to pay for sports. What's more common is for districts to raise activity fees -- often more than $100 per sport -- and admission ticket prices to maintain activities. A typical response to the bill, Buesgens said, is an e-mail from a Rosemount-Apple Valley-Eagan high school athletic director. "He said, 'Jeez, I always thought you supported sports!' " Buesgens said he does. "I have four kids and they're all athletes. I support athletics. This isn't because I'm some bookworm geek." Greiling and Buesgens have the support of education reformer Joe Nathan, director of the University of Minnesota's Center for School Change. "It's long past time to focus more attention on the 'how,' the 'why,' and the 'how much' of extracurricular activities, especially sports," Nathan said. Greiling said she has gotten calls of support "from just plain old citizens who have been complimentary that we have the guts to do this." The bill is tentatively scheduled for a hearing at 8:15 a.m. Thursday before the House Education Policy and Reform Committee in room 200 of the State Office Building. Norman Draper is at [email protected]. Last edited by MikeVic : 03-09-2005 at 12:34 AM.

03-09-2005, 11:06 AM	#6
BigJohn&TheLions College Benchwarmer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York	The arguement could also be made that disassociating sports from school would remove pressure from teachers to pass athletes to retain eligability. __________________ In the immortal words of a great alcoholic, "Can't we all just get along?"

03-09-2005, 01:26 PM	#23
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	tategter the Football team is usually a cash cow that funds most college projects. Like a new Library, New building, etc... I believe your being narrow minded... __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

03-09-2005, 04:14 PM	#32
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	You absolutely should NOT keep score in little league games for kids under a certain age... __________________ Superman was flying around and saw Wonder Woman getting a tan in the nude on her balcony. Superman said I going to hit that real fast. So he flys down toward Wonder Woman to hit it and their is a loud scream. The Invincible Man scream what just hit me in the ass!!!!! I do shit, I take pictures, I write about it: chrisshue.com

03-09-2005, 12:23 AM	#2
Scholes High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St. Paul, MN	Apologies in advance if the article doesn't work for all of you, It worked originally when I clicked the link that a friend sent me, now it's making me register. Perhaps a kind soul could paste it if they get in?

03-09-2005, 12:33 AM	#4
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	To get around it, you can just remove all cookies from that site.

03-09-2005, 10:12 AM	#5
Klinglerware College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The DMV	Just to play devil's advocate here, we already have a three-tiered system in place for a lot of sports now (e.g. soccer, basketball) --the traditional high school teams, club/traveling all-star teams for elite athletes, and comprehensive rec leagues sponsored by both municipalities and religious groups. I could see the argument that if the HS sports are a fiscal drain they can be safely eliminated, since there is already a lot of overlap with other opportunities (rec leagues, elite traveling teams, etc.) for kids to play...

03-09-2005, 12:26 PM	#12
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	I agree that it wouldn't be fair for a good-scoring SAT kid to flip burgers vice going to college; however, I also believe that if that SAT kid has good grades and looks for scholarships, he will get one. Here are some scholarships for minorities: Available Scholarships - Need More MinoritiesTo Apply Even if you do not have a college-aged child at home, please share this with someone who does. Pass this scholarship information on to anyone and everyone that comes to mind. Though there are a number of companies and organizations that have donated money for scholarship use to minorities, a great deal of the money is being returned because of a lack of interest. Help to get the word out that money is available. Our youth really could use these scholarships. If clicking on the link doesn't work try pressing the CTRL key while clicking. If this doesn't work you will have to type in the Web site address manually or cut and past. 1) BELL LABS FELLOWSHIPS FOR UNDER REPRESENTED MINORITIES http://www.bell-labs.com/fellowships/CRFP/info.html 2) Student Inventors Scholarships http://www.invent.org/collegiate/ 3) Student Video Scholarships http://www.christophers.org/vidcon2k.html 4) Coca-Cola Two Year College Scholarships http://www.coca-colascholars.org/programs.html 5) Holocaust Remembrance Scholarships http://holocaust.hklaw.com/ 6) Ayn Rand Essay Scholarships http://www.aynrand.org/contests/ 7) Brand Essay Competition http://www.instituteforbrandleadersh...2002Rules.html 8) Gates Millennlum Scholarships (major) http://www.gmsp.org/nominationmaterials/read.dbm?ID=12 9) Xerox Scholarships for Students http://www2.xerox.com/go/xrx/about_x...rox_detail.jsp 10) Sports Scholarships and Internships http://www.ncaa.org/about/scholarships.html 11) National Assoc. of Black Journalists Scholarships (NABJ) http://www.nabj.org/html/studentsvcs.html 12) Saul T. Wilson Scholarships (Veterinary) http://www.aphis.usda.gov/mb/mrphr/jobs/stw.html 13) Thurgood Marshall Scholar! sh! ip Fund http://www.thurgoodmarshallfund.org/sk_v6.cfm 14) FinAid: The Smart Students Guide to Financial Aid scholarships) http://www.finaid.org/ 15) Presidential Freedom Scholarships http://www.nationalservice.org/scholarships/ 16) Microsoft Scholarship Program http://www.microsoft.com/college/sch...s/minority.asp 17) WiredScholar Free Scholarship Search http://www.wiredscholar.com/paying/s...hip_search.jsp 18) Hope Scholarships &Lifetime Credits http://www.ed.gov/inits/hope/ 19) William Randolph Hearst Endowed Scholarship for Minority Students http://www.apsanet.org/PS/grants/aspen3.cfm 20) Multiple List of Minority Scholarships http://gehon.ir.miami.edu/financial-...hip/black.html 21) Guaranteed Scholarships http://www.guaranteed-scholarships.com/ 22) BOEING scholarships (some HBCU connects) http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...s/scholarships 23) Easley National Scholarship Program http://www.naas.org/senior.htm 24) Maryland Artists Scholarships http://www.maef.org/ 26) Jacki Tuckfield Memorial Graduate Business Scholarship (for AA students in South Florida) http://www.jackituckfield.org/ 27) Historically B! lack College & University Scholarships http://www.iesabroad.org/info/hbcu.htm 28) Actuarial Scholarships for Minority Students http://www.beanactuary.org/minority/scholarships.htm 29) International Students Scholarships & Aid Help http://www.iefa.org/ 30) College Board Scholarship Search http://cbweb10p.collegeboard.org/fun...undfind01.html 31) Burger King Scholarship Program http://www.bkscholars.csfa.org/ 32) Siemens Westinghouse Competition http://www.siemens-foundation.org/ 33) GE and LuLac Scholarship Funds http://www.lulac.org/Programs/Scholar.html 34) CollegeNet>! '> s Scholarship Database http://mach25.collegenet.com/cgi-bin/M25/index 35) Union Sponsored Scholarships and Aid http://www.aflcio.org/scholarships/scholar.htm 36) Federal Scholarships &Aid Gateways 25 Scholarship Gateways from Black Excel http://www.blackexcel.org/25scholarships.htm 37) Scholarship &Financial Aid Help http://www.blackexcel.org/fin-sch.htm 38) Scholarship Links (Ed Finance Group) http://www.efg.net/link_scholarship.htm 39) FAFSA On The Web (Your Key Aid Form &Info) http://www.fafsa.ed.gov/ 40) Aid &Resources For Re-Entry Students http://www.back2college.com/ 41) Scholarships and Fellowships http://www.osc.cuny.edu/sep/links.html 42) Scholarships for Study in Paralegal Studies http://www.paralegals.org/Choice/2000west.htm 43) HBCU Packard Sit Abroad Scholarships (for study around the world) http://www.sit.edu/studyabroad/packard_nomination.html 44) Scholarship and Fellowship Opportunities http://ccmi.uchicago.edu/schl1.html 45) INROADS internships http://www.inroads.org/ 46) ACT-SO bEURoeOlympics of the Mind> ">B Scholarships http://www.naacp.org/work/actso/act-so.shtml 47) Black Alliance for Educational Options Scholarships http://www.baeo.org/options/privatelyfinanced.jsp 48) ScienceNet Scholarship Listing http://www.sciencenet.emory.edu/unde...olarships.html 49) Graduate Fellowships For Minorities Nationwide http://cuinfo.cornell.edu/Student/GR...ory=MINORITIES 50) RHODES SCHOLARSHIPS AT OXFORD http://www.rhodesscholar.org/info.html 51) The Roothbert Scholarship Fund http://www.roothbertfund.org/schol That's not counting Grants or scholarships for non-minorities.

03-09-2005, 12:26 PM	#13
tategter High School JV Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Florida Swampland	My congrats to you RA on your scholorship. Guess I was being too general in my statement. All I'm saying is that high school and college sports should be for the purpose of excercise, not the sole reason for gaining a scholorship. There are instances where the star quarterback on the team happens to also hold a 4.0gpa in biochemestry. There are also many players who struggle to hold a 2.0gpa in woodshop but still got picked to go to a 1a school because of his 150 tackles. Meanwhile the kid with the inhaler who scored well on his SATs but got passed-over is now flipping burgers for a living. Is that fair?

03-09-2005, 12:27 PM	#14
Bubba Wheels College Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	I like it. Just another step in decentralizing and finally eliminating the whole public indocrination process. On the university level, college sports is big-time business and should be treated as such, rather than subsidized by taxpayers.

03-09-2005, 01:14 PM	#21
I. J. Reilly College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: An Oregonian deep in the heart of Texas.	There certainly are athletes who would not be admitted without there physical skills, but I don’t see this as “taking the place” of a more worthy student. Most elite universities that have a finite number for Freshman enrollment do not make exceptions for athletes, it is the large state schools that do. These schools generally admit anyone who qualifies. It’s my understanding, someone jump in if I’m wrong, that many states allocate tax dollars to universities based on enrollment. The Gonzaga increased enrollment example is one more way that a successful athletic program benefits the school. I guess my confusion is the idea that athletics hampers academics on campus. I just don’t get that.

03-09-2005, 04:09 PM	#30
JHandley High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle	Why do athletes get this resentment from you, tategter? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either, but I think that's a pretty fair assesment of how you feel. You resent an athlete "taking away a seat" from a more acedemic minded student. I am also interested in why the pursuit of athletic endeavours is different from the pursuit of art endeavours. Neither really advance the technology of man, but both make the world a more entertaining place to be.

03-09-2005, 04:13 PM	#31
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	Ah, I get you now. You do have a great point that the difference is that I get a BA in Music vs. a BA in Football.

03-09-2005, 05:40 PM	#34
JHandley High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle	I didn't think he was talking about admissions standards, I thought he was talking about any kind of free ride.

03-10-2005, 05:29 AM	#37
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	Also, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, there are "minority" slots to fill in colleges as well.

03-10-2005, 08:52 AM	#38
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	I have been of the opinion that university-funded/NCAA-run college athletics of the "big" sports should be abolished. Except for some rare cases, "student-athlete" is a sham and very hypocritical. But insomuch sports is a good marketing and social tool, let there be a professional minor league established for football and basketball for college-aged kids. This can be supported by the NFL and NBA, with universities buying rights to field a team (using their name, logo, etc.). Let universities be in the business of academics and not sports. I would also think this would extend down to the HS level in some areas (where prep football and basketball are bigger than many other state's universities). In my HS/college years of living in California, North Carolina and Kentucky, I have personally witnessed and have been party to this hypocrisy.

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