07-03-2005, 05:28 PM | #1 | ||
Go Reds
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio
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Clutch
Is there such a thing? I had the longest argument last night debating the merits of clutch. I was the only person against 3 others saying there is no such thing as clutch, particularly in baseball. My buddy made the argument of Brady in football, Horry/Jordan in basketball, Jeter in baseball. Having not played baseball as long as the other three did, my argument was less effective in that I was trying to say no batter should go to the plate and become a better hitter just because it's 2 men on, 2 outs in the 9th. They should be just as good in the first with no on, no out.. but my friend was saying it's a different mentality and that's what makes people clutch.
Also, I asked "Would you rather have Robert Horry take a three with 3 seconds left, down 2 or Ray Allen?" Allen being historically a better shooter, but Horry being historically a big game shooter, every single person pick Horry. So please discuss and give me some wisdom. |
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07-03-2005, 05:31 PM | #2 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
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don't you have better things to argue about?
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07-03-2005, 05:32 PM | #3 |
Go Reds
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio
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I'd also say it's not about being 'clutch' per se, but more to do with composure for someone to hit a game winner, or nail that perfect pass. Saying Jeter is clutch because he was able to make that play against Jeremy Giambi is an insult to any other shortstop who would have done the same thing in that same situation.
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07-03-2005, 05:32 PM | #4 | |
Go Reds
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio
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Quote:
Absolutely not. |
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07-03-2005, 05:36 PM | #5 |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Somerville, MA
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i know that Bill James did a study on 'clutch' and came to the conclusion that it could not be proved that 'clutch' existed.
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07-03-2005, 05:40 PM | #6 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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Show me a guy who can't hit, but can in the clutch. Show me a guy who's a poor shooter who's great in the clutch. Oddly, players who are considered "clutch" are also among the elite in the league. Gee...I wonder what that means?
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07-03-2005, 05:40 PM | #7 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Minneapolis
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Quote:
What about the clutch in my car? Doesn't that exist? |
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07-03-2005, 05:54 PM | #8 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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"Clutch" exists everywhere else in life - some people just perform better in high-stress interviews, talking to girls in bars when others are watching, taking the SATs, ect. Some people handle that pressure, and other don't perform nearly as well in "clutch" situations. Why would sports be any different?
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07-03-2005, 05:58 PM | #9 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
He's also said that, "We ran astray because we have been assuming that random data is proof of nothingness, when in reality random data proves nothing." I think James has actually backed off a lot of the clutch stuff and is now back in the ether of "there are too many factors involved and not enough data" to say anything either way. |
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07-03-2005, 06:00 PM | #10 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Somerville, MA
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Quote:
well that's what i was getting at with the way i worded my post |
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07-03-2005, 06:07 PM | #11 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ohio
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I think being "clutch" exists, whether or not it can be mathematically proven. To be considered "clutch", you have to be given several chances to prove yourself. Not many people on the Royals or D-Rays will ever be considered clutch, as the opportunity rarely presents itself. In basketball or on any good baseball team, chances are always there.
In my video games (my only basis for comparison), I'm a very clutch player. I get big kills/touchdowns/homeruns when they're needed. However, in real life, I'm not a very clutch guy. I get all shaky when my sports team is in crunch time. If I were a real sports player, I'd suck bad in crunch time. But put a controller in my hand and I'm good to kick some major ass. I got nothing |
07-03-2005, 06:10 PM | #12 |
High School JV
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New Zealand
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Most professional athletes know how to play under pressure, but some guys seem to be able to remain focused in crucial situations a little better than others. And of course these are the same guys who are elite...for exactly that reason. They have proven that they make the plays when they count. So the answer is yes.
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07-03-2005, 06:15 PM | #13 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
Ha, sorry, it's just such a usual refrain Bill James, clutch, it doesn't exist, I think I wasn't reading that carefully and just responded to the usual stuff that comes with that. |
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07-03-2005, 06:48 PM | #15 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Honolulu, HI
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I believe in clutch and I don't think you have to be elite to be clutch. I think Robert Horry is clutch but I would not consider him elite.
Quote:
If there is a clutch, there needs to be an opposite to clutch. I would say Chris Webber and Patrick Ewing (at least in the Pros) are not clutch. |
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07-03-2005, 07:08 PM | #16 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
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Derek Jeter is clutch? Over the last three years (easiest data I could find) in close/late situations: 211 ABs .237 AVG 6 HR .708 OPS
I really hate the myth that Jeter is an elite player.
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"I'm losing my edge--to better looking people... with better ideas... and more talent. And who are actually really, really nice." "Everyone's a voyeurist--they're watching me watch them watch me right now." |
07-03-2005, 07:12 PM | #17 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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i hafta agree that i hate the myth that Jeter is a "clutch" or an "elite" player. Call him the captain of the Yankees if you want, but at this point his "aura" is greater than his actual talent. Hell, when the Sox play the Yanks I actually root FOR Jeter to be up in key situations cuz he's so poor. He's no longer a 20 million dollar a year player (or whatever ridiculous number he makes) if he ever was. Fact is, even with the intangibles I wouldn't pay him anymore than say...6-7 mil a year at this point. He's vastly overpaid, and vastly overrated.
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07-03-2005, 07:17 PM | #18 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Edinburg,TX
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You Stole Fizzy Lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and steralized, so you get NOTHING! You lose! |
07-03-2005, 08:04 PM | #19 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Davis, CA
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Quote:
Mike Matheny this year. |
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07-03-2005, 08:08 PM | #20 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Green Bay, WI
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At least you got the first half right. |
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07-03-2005, 09:33 PM | #21 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Quote:
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07-03-2005, 09:44 PM | #22 | |
Torchbearer
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: On Lake Harriet
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Quote:
Based on baseball numbers, but I think you could devise a pretty simple experiment to determine if people react to pressure or stressful situations differently. Use a heart rate monitor or something to measure players' pulses during the normal course of a game versus their pulses during a pressure situation. Compare that versus performance, etc. and you might have some quantifiable measurement for "clutch." |
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07-03-2005, 09:45 PM | #23 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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There is definately a clutch factor in all of us. But I don't think it's about stepping up, it's about not falling apart in times of need.
Take golf for instance, I am a driving range master. But I get nervous at the 1st tee with a bunch of other people I don't know watching me. So, to compensate for this problem, I've learned to not think about the situation. I walk up, take one practice swing, address the ball (on a higher than usual tee height) and swing a smooth easy stroke. 9 times out of 10, I hit a pretty good shot (about 210 yards with a varying degree of accuracy). When I am conscious of people around me and try to hit the ball hard....I almost always screw it up. When playing softball, when I am trying to impress my teammates, I usually hit a line drive to the shortstop (or worse) but when I'm just goofing around and jawing with the pitcher or catcher, I tend to make better contact with the ball. Like I'm in batting practice. So the clutch factor, in my opinion, is the ability to not get wrapped up in the situation. It's not about stepping up your game in clutch-time, it's about keeping things on an even-keel regardless of the game situation. |
07-03-2005, 10:18 PM | #24 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
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Quote:
I agree. And this is an ability that nearly every professional athlete has, or else they wouldn't have made it to the pros.
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"I'm losing my edge--to better looking people... with better ideas... and more talent. And who are actually really, really nice." "Everyone's a voyeurist--they're watching me watch them watch me right now." |
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07-03-2005, 11:11 PM | #25 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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Quote:
Cool - when he can replicate this every year, I'll believe in his ability to come through in the clutch.
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She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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07-03-2005, 11:16 PM | #26 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NJ
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Dutch is clutch and Critch is clutch. I just wanted to type that out since it's been in my head for an hour and i need to get it out.
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07-03-2005, 11:17 PM | #27 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: VA
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Quote:
Me, against our rivals bottom of the last inning down by 1 with a guy 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs and I put it in the gap. I'm the first to admit that I would much rather be hit for and just play the field. I think I'm on a 4-27 streak right now. Don't strike out, just always seem to hit it right to people. But all 4 of those hits came with 2 outs with guys on base while we were down (which is what we usually are). It's the same thing with pretty much everything else I do. Put me under pressure and I'll do a helluva lot better than when not. School, sports, hell even online fps under pressure I'll be a lot better.
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Chicago Eagles 2 time ZFL champions We're "rebuilding" |
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07-03-2005, 11:19 PM | #28 | |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
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Quote:
It's that liberating? Let me try. Damnit, that back-fired. |
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