America's greatest generals

[Senator]

Coming into this thing kind of late; but my picks are:

To win a battle - Stonewall or Patton

To win a war- Eisenhower or Washington

When I get to heaven I am going to spend the first couple of hours asking Lee why he went over that open field.

[MrBug708]

A better question was why Gettysburg in Pennsylvania to get to the White House? I understand that he was taking the easier but bot the quicker path to the Capital. He had already whipped the bulk of the U.S. twice in the Bull Run's, I'm sure he probably could have done it a third time on the same location

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by MrBug708
A better question was why Gettysburg in Pennsylvania to get to the White House? I understand that he was taking the easier but bot the quicker path to the Capital. He had already whipped the bulk of the U.S. twice in the Bull Run's, I'm sure he probably could have done it a third time on the same location

Lee was probably trying to strike quick...it was the furthest North they'd ever been. Plus had they won it would have been like Sherman's March to the Sea, complete freedom of movement.

[WussGawd]

Great thread, by the way.

FWIW, I have two choices.

1) General-US Grant

If you want a general, I think one of the very best (and very underappreciated) was Ulysses S Grant. His rather tarnished Presidency notwithstanding, Grant was the single most important fact of the war. He was the only general who truly never lost a campaign in the war.

His Vicksburg Campaign is strategically and tactically one of the more brilliant and innovative ones ever. He was the *ONLY* general on either side with a grasp of grand strategy in the war. He knew, in a way that even Lee couldn't grasp, that in order to win the war, the coordinated movement of multiple armies were needed to subdue the rebellion.

He was also superb at picking and developing subordinates. Much of Sherman's brilliance could be traced to his growing understanding of the nature of the war from Grant. Many of Grant's subordinates from the early years of the war went on to greater things in later years (Sheridan, Sherman, most notably).

For an unabashed appreciation of Grant's generalship, I highly recommend JFC Fuller's "The Generalship of Ulysses S Grant."

Grant also gave us a very polished account of his own campaigns with his memoirs, which are good reading even today.

2. The Leader-Washington

As far as a leader of men, Washington was without equal. He developed and worked with great men, both on his staff, and as his subordinates.

His development of a spy organization, basically from scratch, was the pivotal fact of the war.

He was also a superb leader. His not only keeping an army together under the worst possible circumstances, but actually developing it to stand up to a world class force like the British Army is very possibly the most outstanding logistical and organizational success of any general, anywhere, and all time.

However, Washington, builder of a great army, leader of men, father of not only a country, but also one of the fathers of the single most liberating idea in the history of the world, was actually a very poor tactician. He was frequently outflanked, particularly in the New York campaigns but elsewhere as well.

In terms of who I'd want to command an army in the field, no question, I think one of the best we've ever been blessed with was Grant. In terms of equipping, supplying, and organizing that army? I could think of no better man in history than George Washington.

[ACStrider]

I'm really enjoying all of the conversation this thread has started. Thanks for the input all! I think there's still a lot of discussion going on, so I'll wait on the poll another half-day. Keep the notes comin'.

[ISiddiqui]

A better question was why Gettysburg in Pennsylvania to get to the White House? I understand that he was taking the easier but bot the quicker path to the Capital. He had already whipped the bulk of the U.S. twice in the Bull Run's, I'm sure he probably could have done it a third time on the same location

Because Washington was REALLY heavily defended. And as the war proved, usually there was an advantage to a defender behind fortifications. And it wasn't needed to win the war. If Lee won in Gettysburg (which he didn't plan), and took, say, Harrisburg and started to make some noise around Philly, he thought that would win the war.

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
Because Washington was REALLY heavily defended. And as the war proved, usually there was an advantage to a defender behind fortifications. And it wasn't needed to win the war. If Lee won in Gettysburg (which he didn't plan), and took, say, Harrisburg and started to make some noise around Philly, he thought that would win the war.

My $.02 worth.

Gettysburg was a strategic blunder by Davis & Lee to begin with. Lee's fixation on Virginia first meant that, faced with Grant's siege of Vicksburg in the West, Lee was trying to distract Grant from the siege of Pemberton's army. His thinking was that if he raised enough of a ruckus invading the North, that Lincoln would panic and have Grant send reinforcements East, which would basically have lifted the siege.

It didn't work, mostly because Lincoln knew better than anyone how crippling the loss of Vicksburg would be to the Confederacy, and therefore sustained Grant against the criticisms of Halleck and Stanton. Then to top it off, Meade, with the help of Hancock, Reynolds and John Buford on the first day, Warren on the second, and Hancock on the third, won the biggest victory of the Army of the Potomac up to that time

Davis, IMNSHO, should have probably overruled his illustrious subordinate and reinforced Johnston's army in Mississippi to lift the siege.

[Anrhydeddu]

WussGawd, very good posts. It is good to see someone else with great insight into the Revolutionary War and Civil War.

[Aylmar]

Originally posted by WussGawd
It didn't work, mostly because Lincoln knew better than anyone how crippling the loss of Vicksburg would be to the Confederacy, and therefore sustained Grant against the criticisms of Halleck and Stanton.

He knew better than anyone except Winfield Scott.

[WSUCougar]

Ah, crap. I just posted my Gettysburg comments in the wrong thread: WDYK: American Civil War

Oh well...

[SoundOff]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
General Benjamin Oliver Davis. It will probably be lost on people why since he was not "famous".

HFP,
Au contraire. He was a commander at Tuskegee, and was the first black four-star general. The US Air Force is extremely proud of the contributions he made to his country. A great American.

Bill

[Fritz]

SoundOff, you are talking about Jr.

HFP is possibly talking about Sr., who was the first black US General.

[HornedFrog Purple]

SoundOff, I was referring to Sr but that was my own fault. His son was I think the 3rd or 4th graduate of the US Military Academy and he was the nation's 2nd African-American general.

This is a summation of his father whose appointment and promotion was a significant step forward for African-Americans in the military and in general:

Benjamin O. Davis, Sr., was born in Washington, D.C., on July 1, 1877. He entered the military service on July 13, 1898, during the War with Spain as a temporary first lieutenant of the 8th United States Volunteer Infantry. He was mustered out on March 6, 1899, and on June 18, 1899, he enlisted as a private in Troop I, 9th Cavalry, of the Regular Army. He then served as corporal and squadron sergeant major, and on February 2, 1901, he was commissioned a second lieutenant of Cavalry in the Regular Army.

PROMOTIONS
He was promoted to first lieutenant on March 30, 1905; to captain on December 24, 1915; to major (temporary) on August 5, 1917; and to lieutenant colonel (temporary) on May 1, 1918. He reverted to his permanent rank of captain on October 14, 1919, and was promoted to lieutenant colonel on July 1, 1920; to colonel on February 18, 1930; to brigadier general (temporary) on October 25, 1940. He was retired on July 31, 1941, and recalled to active duty with the rank of brigadier general the following day.

DECORATIONS AND HONORS
General Davis' U.S. military decorations consisted of the Bronze Star Medal and the Distinguished Service Medal (DSM). His DSM medal, awarded by General Order 10, dated 22 February 1945, stated that General Benjamin O. Davis was awarded the DSM "for exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility from June 1941 to November 1944. The War Department release issued about General Davis' DSM on

February 11, 1945 included the following citation:

"For exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility from June, 1941, to November, 1944, as an Inspector of troop units in the field, and as special War Department consultant on matters pertaining to Negro troops. The initiative, intelligence and sympathetic understanding displayed by him in conducting countless investigations concerning individual soldiers, troop units and other components of the War Department brought about a fair and equitable solution to many important problems which have since become the basis of far-reaching War Department policy. His wise advice and counsel have made a direct contribution to the maintenance of soldier morale and troop discipline and has been of material assistance to the War Department and to responsible commanders in the field of understanding personnel matters as they pertain to the individual soldier."

Additionally, General Davis was awarded an Honorary Degree of LL.D. from Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia. His foreign awards and honors consisted of the Croix de Guerre with Palm from France and the Grade of Commander of the Order of the Star of Africa from Liberia.

[SoundOff]

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
SoundOff, I was referring to Sr but that was my own fault. His son was I think the 3rd or 4th graduate of the US Military Academy and he was the nation's 2nd African-American general.

This is a summation of his father whose appointment and promotion was a significant step forward for African-Americans in the military and in general:

Benjamin O. Davis, Sr., was born in Washington, D.C., on July 1, 1877. He entered the military service on July 13, 1898, during the War with Spain as a temporary first lieutenant of the 8th United States Volunteer Infantry. He was mustered out on March 6, 1899, and on June 18, 1899, he enlisted as a private in Troop I, 9th Cavalry, of the Regular Army. He then served as corporal and squadron sergeant major, and on February 2, 1901, he was commissioned a second lieutenant of Cavalry in the Regular Army.

PROMOTIONS
He was promoted to first lieutenant on March 30, 1905; to captain on December 24, 1915; to major (temporary) on August 5, 1917; and to lieutenant colonel (temporary) on May 1, 1918. He reverted to his permanent rank of captain on October 14, 1919, and was promoted to lieutenant colonel on July 1, 1920; to colonel on February 18, 1930; to brigadier general (temporary) on October 25, 1940. He was retired on July 31, 1941, and recalled to active duty with the rank of brigadier general the following day.

DECORATIONS AND HONORS
General Davis' U.S. military decorations consisted of the Bronze Star Medal and the Distinguished Service Medal (DSM). His DSM medal, awarded by General Order 10, dated 22 February 1945, stated that General Benjamin O. Davis was awarded the DSM "for exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility from June 1941 to November 1944. The War Department release issued about General Davis' DSM on

February 11, 1945 included the following citation:

"For exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility from June, 1941, to November, 1944, as an Inspector of troop units in the field, and as special War Department consultant on matters pertaining to Negro troops. The initiative, intelligence and sympathetic understanding displayed by him in conducting countless investigations concerning individual soldiers, troop units and other components of the War Department brought about a fair and equitable solution to many important problems which have since become the basis of far-reaching War Department policy. His wise advice and counsel have made a direct contribution to the maintenance of soldier morale and troop discipline and has been of material assistance to the War Department and to responsible commanders in the field of understanding personnel matters as they pertain to the individual soldier."

Additionally, General Davis was awarded an Honorary Degree of LL.D. from Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia. His foreign awards and honors consisted of the Croix de Guerre with Palm from France and the Grade of Commander of the Order of the Star of Africa from Liberia.

I stand corrected. And, in fact, I was wrong about something else (other than getting father and son mxed up) Jr. did not reach four-star rank, but he was the USAF's first general officer who was not caucasian (Although I guess you could make a case for Elwood Quesada--who was a creative military thinker in his own right). Other than Tuskegee, his record was not in any way distinguished. No knock on him, just the truth.

My apologies.