Arizona immigration law goes into effect......

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The US is, actually, very accepting of immigrants comparatively. We have a lot to be proud of on that score. Europe is absolutely horrid in terms of race relations.

I think you're completely ignoring the economic concerns.

Governments are getting better at taking care of their own citizens. That's tough to do and it takes a while, and it takes an extremely strong economy. I don't think any country is yet at the point where they can economically take care of the entire world (or specifically, anyone in the world who wants to be taken care of regardless of what they contribute).

[ISiddiqui]

There are economic concerns on both sides, of course (one of the reasons that unions are usually not for increased immigration or any talk about "amnesty").

[larrymcg421]

There are definitely economic concerns. Labor costs go up if you stop illegal immigration. That's why it's obvious why the AZ GOP didn't do one thing to increase penalties on corporations and in fact they hilariously added an entrapment defense for businesses. So no, I don't think the AZ GOP are racists, but they are definitely playing to the fears of racists while making sure not to upset their fatcat donor base.

The only way to do stop illegal immigration is to make penalties so severe for business that the cost benefit of hiring illegals at a lower wage is no longer worth the potential fines they face for getting caught. You think with this wall that illegals still won't get through. You don't think money will be exchanging hands? As long as corporations can profit off of cheap labor, illegal immigrants will get across that border whether you have a billion checkpoints, a massive wall, or even landmines.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

There are definitely economic concerns. Labor costs go up if you stop illegal immigration. That's why it's obvious why the AZ GOP didn't do one thing to increase penalties on corporations and in fact they hilariously added an entrapment defense for businesses. So no, I don't think the AZ GOP are racists, but they are definitely playing to the fears of racists while making sure not to upset their fatcat donor base.

The only way to do stop illegal immigration is to make penalties so severe for business that the cost benefit of hiring illegals at a lower wage is no longer worth the potential fines they face for getting caught. You think with this wall that illegals still won't get through. You don't think money will be exchanging hands? As long as corporations can profit off of cheap labor, illegal immigrants will get across that border whether you have a billion checkpoints, a massive wall, or even landmines.

No, the ONLY way (if you must insist in speaking in absolutes) is to punish EVERYbody--businesses and illegal immigrants.

Sorry, just annoyed (not just at you, larry) at those that seem to want to pick on just the support base of one party or the other. Let's fairly pick on both, I say, and not be so blatantly partisan.

[larrymcg421]

Well I'm picking on one party here because they're the ones that passed a law that pretended to attack illegal immigration, but actually helped protect businesses from suffering the already weak penalties on the books. In this specific case, they deserve criticism for their hypocrisy.

And I do think that going after businesses that hire illegal immigrants is the only way to solve the problem. No matter what laws you put in place to punish immigrants or try to keep them out, businesses will still ensure that they get here if it saves them enough money.

[molson]

I just read that 40% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 don't know which country the United States declared independence from. I support revoking the citizenship of those people, and replacing them with anyone, of any color, from any country.

[JediKooter]

Purely anecdotal...

Met a farmer from Fresno about 4 years ago. He owns a pistachio farm. He said that the new illegals are not from latin countries, but, are coming from the former soviet republics and eastern Europe and is seeing more and more of them. The reason? They are cheaper.

So, if people are just patient, the problem will work itself out. The brown/dark skinned illegals will price themselves out of work and then the only illegals will be light skinned illegals.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Purely anecdotal...

Met a farmer from Fresno about 4 years ago. He owns a pistachio farm. He said that the new illegals are not from latin countries, but, are coming from the former soviet republics and eastern Europe and is seeing more and more of them. The reason? They are cheaper.

So, if people are just patient, the problem will work itself out. The brown/dark skinned illegals will price themselves out of work and then the only illegals will be light skinned illegals.

The race to the bottom continues.

Perhaps soon Africans will top the eastern Europeans and work for free! Then we're really have come full circle, all in the name of open borders and opportunities!

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

The race to the bottom continues.

Perhaps soon Africans will top the eastern Europeans and work for free! Then we're really have come full circle, all in the name of open borders and opportunities!

I think the 13th Amendment prevents that from happening.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I think the 13th Amendment prevents that from happening.

Think of it like an internship.

[JediKooter]

Hmmmm...that is one way to think of it.

[JediKooter]

Looks like the more controversial portions of the law have been suspended for the time being:

Judge blocks parts of Arizona immigration law - Yahoo! News

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I just read that 40% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 don't know which country the United States declared independence from. I support revoking the citizenship of those people, and replacing them with anyone, of any color, from any country.

I may be sounding like an old man, but this next generation is going to be a doozy.

[JediKooter]

Get off my lawn!!!!

I'm hoping there's enough smart ones to out last the dumb ones for this generation that is coming up.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I just read that 40% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 don't know which country the United States declared independence from. I support revoking the citizenship of those people, and replacing them with anyone, of any color, from any country.

It was France, right? Tell me it was France. Or the Romans.

SI

[Dutch]

Well, I'm pretty sure the Romans didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well, I'm pretty sure the Romans didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.

Right - everybody knows that was the Germans.

[molson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It was France, right? Tell me it was France. Or the Romans.

SI

Unfortunately, the poll didn't give a breakdown of how often other countries were mentioned. But it did say:

"Among the countries mentioned were France, China, Japan, Mexico, and Spain, according to the poll"

I guess I can kind of see Mexico, if you live in the Southern U.S. - with all the Spanish city names and such. Maybe the ones that answered China were actually just forecasting the future.

Here's the data:

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...dependence.htm

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

I just read that 40% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 don't know which country the United States declared independence from. I support revoking the citizenship of those people, and replacing them with anyone, of any color, from any country.

Text them the answer, then they will all know it.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Unfortunately, the poll didn't give a breakdown of how often other countries were mentioned. But it did say:

"Among the countries mentioned were France, China, Japan, Mexico, and Spain, according to the poll"

I guess I can kind of see Mexico, if you live in the Southern U.S. - with all the Spanish city names and such. Maybe the ones that answered China were actually just forecasting the future.

Here's the data:

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...dependence.htm

Well, technically, if you're a Texan, they did declare Independence from Mexico...

Also, are we sure this was a legit poll? This isn't like that Oklahoma one that Fox News grabbed onto last year where it turned out the results were just made up and not a random sampling, right?

SI

[JPhillips]

Marist polling has a good reputation.

My question is whether this is really worse than it has always been. I'm always a little skeptical of the "kids now a days" type of complaints.

[sterlingice]

Cool- didn't know anything about Marist really.

SI

[lungs]

I just hired two guys yesterday, one from Mexico, one from Nicaragua. And by god, they both have green cards and social security cards. Legal? I doubt it. But I will turn in all their information to the government like every other employee.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by lungs

I just hired two guys yesterday, one from Mexico, one from Nicaragua. And by god, they both have green cards and social security cards. Legal? I doubt it. But I will turn in all their information to the government like every other employee.

And the government will gladly accept both of those social security numbers and all of their with-holdings, even if according to their records those numbers are employed by hundreds of different employers under hundreds of different names across multiple states.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

And the government will gladly accept both of those social security numbers and all of their with-holdings, even if according to their records those numbers are employed by hundreds of different employers under hundreds of different names across multiple states.

Pretty much. That's why the people that scream about going after employers such as myself don't really understand that it's not black and white. We've covered our ass on our end. The government doesn't do anything about it, especially Social Security as they are getting funds from these people of which the people will never collect on.

On another note, my dad is a few years away from collecting social security and was joking that he should let all of our employees use his SS# to pad his account.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My question is whether this is really worse than it has always been.

A valid question IMO. But then again, little things make me wonder.

Case in point, an incident last school year that drove my son nuts (he bitched about this at home for days afterwards). Some sort of trivia game was being played by sixth graders on a long field trip bus ride, the question was something like "What year did WW II begin?" One child in this whole group of high achieving, mostly upper income kids of well educated parents had an answer. As he put it "I don't expect them all to know 1939 but at least guess 1941, you're an American for God's sake".

When I hear stories like that one, and know the percentile rank of these kids versus the rest of the nation, I'm left to wonder if it really isn't a good bit worse than it used to be.

edit to add: He had another good line about that incident, about how "there's a whole freakin' channel that doesn't show anything else, you ought to know that one just from channel surfing". Yeah, The Military Channel (formerly Discovery Wings) has some image problems

[tyketime]

This is as good a place as any... (Bolding is done by me for emphasis)

About 8 percent of children born in the United States in 2008 — about 340,000 — were offspring of unauthorized immigrants, according to an analysis of Census Bureau data by the Pew Hispanic Center released on Wednesday.

The center said that unauthorized immigrants compose about 4 percent of the adult population, but because they are relatively young and have high birthrates, their children make up a much larger share of the newborn population and the child population (7 percent of those younger than age 18).

The center said it analyzed data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s March 2009 Current Population Survey.

The Pew Hispanic analysis found that 79 percent of the 5.1 million children of unauthorized immigrants were born in this country and are U.S. citizens.

This is the first time I've seen the term "unauthorized" instead of "illegal". An interesting twist in the ongoing debate.

[molson]

So it appears France is rounding up and deporting gypsies:

Are the French Roma Deportations A Sign of Growing Xenophobia? - TIME

I think this kind of context of what the rest of the world actually does is useful in a discussion of our country, where enforcement of ordinary immigration laws is viewed as a human rights issue, or fascism, or as racist.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

So it appears France is rounding up and deporting gypsies:

Are the French Roma Deportations A Sign of Growing Xenophobia? - TIME

I think this kind of context of what the rest of the world actually does is useful in a discussion of our country, where enforcement of ordinary immigration laws is viewed as a human rights issue, or fascism, or as racist.

Borat must have sponsored that.