Soccer Thread 2015-16

[Grover]

http://www.football365.com/news/outs...-top-20-quotes

[flere-imsaho]

I hear Ancellotti is in the frame for Liverpool, too. But yeah, Klopp's been the rumor for far longer. Probably the better choice with the team, too.

The most interesting thing to me about Chelsea so far this year is that it's starting to solidify the idea that you really can't go through the summer without strengthening your squad and hope to repeat.

2013 ManU has a pathetic summer transfer window (which I blame on Woodward far more than Moyes). Of course Sir Alex retiring was big, and Moyes was out of his depth, but still.

2014 City adds pretty much no one (Mangala disappoints that year anyway) and struggles mightily. Compare this year where they've strengthened quite a bit. Chelsea, by contrast, bulked up considerably that summer.

And now this year, Chelsea stand pat in the transfer window and their performances indicate they clearly needed some new blood.


Maybe this (argh) confirms that Perez at Real Madrid has it right: if you're a top club, Always Be Buying.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by TroyF

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? All we can do is look from the outside. What I see:

1) It looks like the team has stopped listening to him. They aren't playing with any joy and they look horrible.

2) I simply can't see many allied left in the board room. (I know, the decision is going to come down to one man) He's embarrassed the club multiple times this year and the latest rant directly goes after the board. From the doctor who left, to his continued attack on the EPL refs, to his paranoid rants on everything from Wenger to his own board. . . An organization will deal with that when EPL titles are coming, it's not going to hold up when you're 16th in the table.


To me #1 is the real key here. If he's lost the locker room, what are you going to do? Are you going to hope he can recover for a CL spot and turn over 80 percent of the roster next year? I just can't see it. If he still has control of the locker room, he has a chance. From the outside looking in, it sure doesn't appear that way to me.

If he's really lost the locker room, then yes, it's time to start deciding whether Klopp or Return of the Ancelotti is our first choice. But what's so bizarre about this is that we were fine until we clinched the title last year. People talked about our slowing down the back half of last season, but even during that spell we went three months without trailing in a league match. Now we can barely go three halves. Mourinho's usually burning bridges in his third year, but even for him this would be insanely fast - it's basically the last dozen league matches, and some of those were with a title clinched.

Flere's right about standing pat being a common title-winners' mistake, but that doesn't explain this much of a mess either.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I'm sure it didn't get noticed by some, but Nemeth's single-handed goal on Saturday was one of the best individual goals you'll ever see. He started from beyond midfield and never gave the ball up.

[flere-imsaho]

George Weah Goal AC Milan vs Verona - YouTube

[law90026]

Goddamn that Arsenal win against Man Utd was amazing. It still bugs me that the team comes out flat against weaker opposition then plays that way against stronger opposition.

Sad to see Rodgers go. Pretty sure most of the other managers in the PL are sad too Looks like Klopp is the likely shoo-in for the position unless the rumours are true he is waiting for the Bayern job.

[flere-imsaho]

Rodgers is that guy in FM who keeps tinkering with his formation/lineup and wonders why the team never gels.

[flere-imsaho]

The whole Louis Van Gaal/ManU thing is fascinating. You've got a guy who is trying to change the mentality of a whole club and it'll be really interesting to see if he can do it.

The United teams under Ferguson won because they were relentless, took risks, and never stopped. The great recent documentary "Class of 92" has a line from Paul Scholes in it where he relates that if you passed up the chance to take a risky pass when you had it, you'd be riding the pine for a few games until you learned your lesson.

There were times when this led to spectacular defeats, and it was often a pretty naive way to play in upper-level European competition. But it was also how Ferguson got so many titles out of a side that was frequently, on a man-by-man basis, not necessarily any more talented (or at least significantly more talented) than other top EPL sides.

The system Van Gaal is implementing, of possession & caution, is diametrically opposed. Sure, he's turned over a lot of the playing staff. Is that how you overturn a club mentality? Like I said, the experiment is fascinating.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Rodgers is that guy in FM who keeps tinkering with his formation/lineup and wonders why the team never gels.

I wonder how it would've turned out if Sturridge stayed healthy. I don't think Liverpool was wrong to fire Rodgers, but I also don't think he's a bad manager. Just that things snowballed out of control, and it started when they went from that dominant Suarez/Sturridge combo up top to a Sterling who had to grow into the role as the season progressed and a Balotelli experiment that never worked out.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The whole Louis Van Gaal/ManU thing is fascinating. You've got a guy who is trying to change the mentality of a whole club and it'll be really interesting to see if he can do it.

The United teams under Ferguson won because they were relentless, took risks, and never stopped. The great recent documentary "Class of 92" has a line from Paul Scholes in it where he relates that if you passed up the chance to take a risky pass when you had it, you'd be riding the pine for a few games until you learned your lesson.

There were times when this led to spectacular defeats, and it was often a pretty naive way to play in upper-level European competition. But it was also how Ferguson got so many titles out of a side that was frequently, on a man-by-man basis, not necessarily any more talented (or at least significantly more talented) than other top EPL sides.

The system Van Gaal is implementing, of possession & caution, is diametrically opposed. Sure, he's turned over a lot of the playing staff. Is that how you overturn a club mentality? Like I said, the experiment is fascinating.

But then you say that and he started a forward and a midfielder in defense against Arsenal. Is his style really that defensive? I think the big change is that he's trying to implement a very continental style at a British club but I don't get the impression he is overly cautious...

[flere-imsaho]

I'm not saying Van Gaal is implementing a defensive mentality, I'm saying he's implementing a possession-based, low tempo mentality. In that sense, it's not all that strange to see Blind (someone who can play on the ball) in defense, though obviously Valencia continues to be a challenge when also used in defense.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't think Rodgers is a bad manager. Mostly I think the situation sunk him. When you lose Carragher, Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling in quick succession, and you're not fully in charge of the transfer process and as a result it doesn't really produce, you're obviously going to struggle.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I don't think Rodgers is a bad manager. Mostly I think the situation sunk him. When you lose Carragher, Gerrard, Suarez and Sterling in quick succession, and you're not fully in charge of the transfer process and as a result it doesn't really produce, you're obviously going to struggle.

I think they were silly to sack him frankly - he was in a very awkward position with a huge amount of his core team aging or being sold in quick succession, given time I have no doubt he'd have turned it around.

Its ironic that Everton are able to fend off bids for their key players (ie. Stones) and retain them, when Liverpool who are traditionally considered the larger club have been selling theirs ..

PS - The strange thing is that I don't think Rodgers had lost the confidence of the Liverpool players, whereas I'm convinced Mourinho has lost the Chelsea ones ..

[flere-imsaho]

It's a very good point, Marc.

This article from The Guardian lists a number of points the next manager will have to overcome: Liverpool in crisis: the problems facing the next manager at Anfield | Football | The Guardian

If it is Klopp, however, it'll be interesting to see if FSG makes some changes (such as the transfer committee & transfer policy) given his (presumably) greater reputation than Rodgers.

Similar, honestly, to the step from Moyes to Van Gaal. Moyes clearly worked for Woodward, but it's the opposite with Van Gaal. As it should be. Although the mgmt/owner should have final veto over clearly unacceptable transfer business, I question the rationale behind tying a manager's hands in the transfer market (within reason).

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

when Liverpool who are traditionally considered the larger club have been selling theirs ..

FSG are a Moneyball outfit. Philosophically they believe you sell when given good offers and buy replacement talent at a fraction.

While I think there's a decent strategy there (see Juventus's transfer activity in the past 5 years, for instance), it overlooks the fact the cohesion is far more important in football than, say, baseball.

The irony is that a data-driven approach and even "transfer committee" could absolutely be used to build an excellent team. Have the manager lay out specifically his philosophy, then build a search & evaluation model for players based on that model.

Longer-serving successful managers clearly do this naturally (see, again, Ferguson & Gill), but there's no reason it can't be systematized.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The irony is that a data-driven approach and even "transfer committee" could absolutely be used to build an excellent team. Have the manager lay out specifically his philosophy, then build a search & evaluation model for players based on that model.

Yeah you can definitely build a 'good' team in this way, but to do so and turn a profit is far harder and unlikely to win you titles.

The nearest thing to it in soccer is Arsenal, Wenger has a damned good eye for talent and the club brings in good players young ... but their turn over (and Wenger's lack of defensive cohesion imho) mean while they're competitive they aren't where they might be.

i agree with you that Soccer is a team sport and part of that team isn't something you can ascertain in data, its the relationships between the players and their knowledge of each other and their behavior and positioning on the pitch ... I've played with people personally where because we've played together for years I've just 'known' where they'd be without even looking.

PS - Data is becoming more and more important for clubs these days, its one of the reasons why we license out our database to clubs, they want as much information at their finger tips as possible.

[MIJB#19]

Euro2016 qualification action continues next Thursday.
If my scenario writing skills aren't letting me down (or UEFA reverts a score or two ), these are the scenarios for the Thursday/Friday/Saturday series. I'll try to update after the Saturday games for he final round.

Group A
Iceland and Czechia qualified
Turkey secures playoffs with win, still secure with draw + Netherlands draw or with Netherlands loss
Netherlands needs win to stay alive, still stay alive with draw + draw or with Turkey loss

Group B
Wales and Belgium secured playoffs
Wales qualifies with win or draw, still qualifies with Israel loss or draw
Belgium qualifies with win, still qualifies with draw + Israel draw or with Israel loss
Israel secures playoffs with win + Bosnia-Herzegovina loss/draw, still secures with draw + Bosnia-Herzegovina loss
Bosnia-Herzegovina needs win to stay alive, still alive with draw + Israel draw or with Israel loss
Cyprus needs win to stay alive

Group C
Spain, Slovakia and Ukraine secured playoffs
Spain qualifies with win, still qualifies with draw + Ukraine draw or with Ukraine loss
Slovakia qualifies with win, still qualifies with draw + Ukraine draw or with Ukraine loss

Group D
Germany secured playoffs
Germany qualifies with win or draw
Poland qualifies with win + Ireland loss/draw, secures playoffs with draw
Ireland secures playoffs with win, still secures with draw + Scotland draw or with Scotland loss
Scotland needs win to stay alive, also stays alive with draw + Ireland loss

Group E
England qualified
Switzerland qualifies with win + Slovenia loss/draw, still qualifies with draw + Slovenia loss + Estonia loss/draw, secures playoffs with win, still secures with draw + Estonia loss/draw
Slovenia secures playoffs with win + Estonia loss/draw
Estonia needs win to stay alive, also stays alive with Slovenia loss/draw
Lithuania needs win to stay alive

Group F
Northern Ireland secured playoffs
Northern Ireland qualifies with win + Romania loss, still qualifies with Hungary loss/draw
Romania qualifies with win + Hungary loss/draw, still qualifies with draw + Hungary loss, secures playoffs with win/draw
Hungary secures playoffs with win, still secures with draw + Hungary draw or with Hungary loss
Finland needs win to stay alive, also stays alive with draw + Hungary loss

Group G
Austria qualified
Russia qualifies with win + Sweden loss/draw + Montenegro loss/draw, still qualifies with draw + Sweden loss + Montenegro loss, secures playoffs with win + either Sweden loss/draw or Montenegro loss/draw, still secures with draw
Sweden secures playoffs with win + Montenegro loss
Montenegro stays alive with win, also stays alive with Sweden loss/draw

Group H
Italy and Norway secured playoffs
Italy qualifies with win, still qualifies with draw + Croatia draw or with Croatia loss
Norway qualifies with win + Croatia loss/draw
Croatia secures playoffs with win/draw
Bulgaria needs win to stay alive

Group I
Portugal, Denmark and Albania secured playoffs
Portugal qualifies with win/draw, still qualifies with Albania loss
Denmark qualifies with win + Albania draw
Albania qualifies with win + Denmark loss/draw

[flere-imsaho]

And here are the teams who definitely aren't making it:

Group A: Latvia, Kazakhstan

Group B: Andorra

Group C: Belarus, Luxembourg, Macedonia

Group D: Georgia, Gibraltar

Group E: San Marino

Group F: Faroe Islands, Greece

Group G: Liechtenstein, Moldova

Group H: Azerbaijan, Malta

Group I: Armenia, Serbia


The moral of the story is that you're making it to the finals unless you're tiny, your fans are active violent racist xenophobes, or #Greece.

Yes, Greece, winners in 2004 and quarterfinalists in 2012, couldn't even beat or draw vs. Faroe Islands on two tries.

[Grover]

Landon Donovan really needs to get over not being picked for the World Cup.

Should he have been? Yes. Stop taking shots at Klinsmann, get over it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Landon Donovan really needs to get over not being picked for the World Cup.

Should he have been? Yes. Stop taking shots at Klinsmann, get over it.

But he's also completely right. So he can't talk about Klinsmann ever again, just because people are going to attribute everything to bitterness?

[dacman]

I'm with LD -- Klinsi will deserve to be fired if we lose to Mexico; he won't be though.

[Grover]

Sure, maybe he should be fired. I don't necessarily believe he should be. But I know we're on vastly different sides of the fence with Klinsmann.

Whenever he is asked about Klinsmann, he comes off as petty and like a hurt child. I never said he should never talk about Klinsy again, but he can't talk about him without getting in a shot or two. It's kind of sad.

[cartman]

I mean, when you can't even get on the field ahead of Hat Trick Rick, I can see where LD is frustrated.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by cartman

I mean, when you can't even get on the field ahead of Hat Trick Rick, I can see where LD is frustrated.

Sure, and to be fair outside of Dempsey and Bradley, I feel like there's not much talent on this team at all. Yedlin is okay. Zardes is wildly inconsistent and disappears for long stretches at a time. The back four is very hit or miss outside of Geoff Cameron. Jones is fine, but aging. Our strikers are absolutely woeful.

It's a combination of talent and tactics holding the US back right now.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

FSG are a Moneyball outfit. Philosophically they believe you sell when given good offers and buy replacement talent at a fraction.

I don't pay attention to Liverpool like I do the Red Sox, but I'd characterize Henry/FSG as an impatient, reactionary owner not really wedded to any long-term philosophy. They love talking about using moneyball-like stats, or only signing short-term contracts, or only targeting players entering their prime, then throw it completely out the window when it's convenient or the team has a bad stretch.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Whenever he is asked about Klinsmann, he comes off as petty and like a hurt child. I never said he should never talk about Klinsy again, but he can't talk about him without getting in a shot or two. It's kind of sad.

Only because your putting that on him since you are on Klinsmann's side. When Donovan is asked point blank in an interview what should happen to Klinsmann if the USMNT loses to Mexico, his answer is the exactly answer I would likely have given... just probably more articulate than I would have said (which would probably be more like "Fire his ass").

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

It's a combination of talent and tactics holding the US back right now.

That's kind of bullshit, to be honest. There is tons of talent in MLS that Klinsmann won't even consider. Feilhaber has been a far better Attacking MF than Bradley this entire season, but Feilhaber can't even get a call up. Beckerman has slowed down significantly, and Jermaine Jones can't stay defensive in the DM spot, but Perry Kitchen gets one or two garbage friendlies and Dax McCarty who is the best DM in MLS (better than both Beckerman or Jones) hasn't gotten a call up since Bob Bradley was coach. Hell, we even played Bedoya at DM rather than call in McCarty or Kitchen.

We have plenty of talent to pull from, Klinsmann just has some very strange ideas of looking for it. And when you think he is starting to get it, calling up Zardes and playing him quite a bit, he ignores a lot of potential help otherwise. Compare that to when Arena was in charge. Arena found young talent and developed them in the national team instead of whining that the US doesn't have soccer talent.

- Oh, and speaking of Geoff Cameron, has anyone told Klinsmann he plays CB for Stoke? How about playing him in his club position rather than waste time with Alvarado?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's kind of bullshit, to be honest. There is tons of talent in MLS that Klinsmann won't even consider. Feilhaber has been a far better Attacking MF than Bradley this entire season, but Feilhaber can't even get a call up. Beckerman has slowed down significantly, and Jermaine Jones can't stay defensive in the DM spot, but Perry Kitchen gets one or two garbage friendlies and Dax McCarty who is the best DM in MLS (better than both Beckerman or Jones) hasn't gotten a call up since Bob Bradley was coach. Hell, we even played Bedoya at DM rather than call in McCarty or Kitchen.

We have plenty of talent to pull from, Klinsmann just has some very strange ideas of looking for it. And when you think he is starting to get it, calling up Zardes and playing him quite a bit, he ignores a lot of potential help otherwise. Compare that to when Arena was in charge. Arena found young talent and developed them in the national team instead of whining that the US doesn't have soccer talent.

- Oh, and speaking of Geoff Cameron, has anyone told Klinsmann he plays CB for Stoke? How about playing him in his club position rather than waste time with Alvarado?

Totally agree with this. There's some excellent MLS players that are totally getting overlooked. The league was created to develop talent. Use it.

[MrBug708]

Fehihaber and Cameron are "benefiting" from pissing off Jurgy

[Grover]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I don't pay attention to Liverpool like I do the Red Sox, but I'd characterize Henry/FSG as an impatient, reactionary owner not really wedded to any long-term philosophy. They love talking about using moneyball-like stats, or only signing short-term contracts, or only targeting players entering their prime, then throw it completely out the window when it's convenient or the team has a bad stretch.

Rodgers really had to go though.

[Grover]

This is why I hate discussing the USMNT on this board. The opinions are so polar opposite on the state of the team that there's no point in even debating it.

Really appreciate my opinion being called bullshit though, thanks.

[flere-imsaho]

The ideas that talent is holding the USMNT back, and that Klinnsmann is overlooking talent in the MLS aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Let's say, generally, that we're on par with Mexico. The US has 3 times the population of Mexico, but given that many other sports peel off talented athletes in the US, the realistic pool is probably smaller than Mexico's, therefore we're probably actually doing well to be at their level.

In addition, in the recent CONCACAF squads, here's where the players actually play:

Mexico:
National League: 12 (5 teams)
Serie A: 1 (Verona)
Eredivisie: 2 (both PSV)
Primera Liga (Portugal): 4 (3 Porto, 1 Benfica)
Primera Division (Spain): 3 (2 Real Sociedad, 1 Villarreal)
Bundesliga: 1 (Bayer Leverkusen)

United States:
National League: 12 (8 teams)
EPL: 4 (Everton, Aston Villa, Stoke, Sunderland)
English Football Championship: 3 (Fulham, Birmingham City, Reading)
Bundesliga: 1 (Borussia Mönchengladbach)
Liga MX (Mexico): 2 (2 teams)
Ligue 1 (France): 1 (Nantes)

I have no idea what the above proves, but thought it was interesting.

[Grover]

I'm firmly of the opinion that our players would be better served in their development by playing in Europe. Better competition makes better players.

Look how awful Bradley has been since coming back from Europe.

Really one of the biggest issues I have with Klinsmann is his insistence on playing Bradley in an attacking midfield role. I mean, I get it, we're pretty profligate in front of goal with the talent we have at forward, but Dempsey is best served where Bradley has been playing and Bradley would be best served playing deeper.

[flere-imsaho]

It's a common problem with managers who were formerly world class players. There's a tendency to play your best player in your most important position, even if it's not their best position.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It's a common problem with managers who were formerly world class players. There's a tendency to play your best player in your most important position, even if it's not their best position.

Right. Which seriously diminishes the use of Bradley's overall field vision and doesn't make use of his box to box skills.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

In addition, in the recent CONCACAF squads, here's where the players actually play:

So, Mexico has (or had) 11 players who play in European leagues. The U.S. has (or had) 9.

Of the Mexican 11, 7 are playing in the UCL this year (PSV, Porto, Benfica, Leverkusen), with I believe 0 in the Europa League.

Of the U.S. 9, 1 is in the UCL (Borussia Mönchengladbach) and also, I believe, 0 in the Europa League.

[cartman]

This pretty much echos my sentiments

Landon DonovanÂ*Says USMNT Shouldn't Take Klinsmann To The Next World Cup

[Grover]

Originally Posted by cartman

This pretty much echos my sentiments

Landon DonovanÂ*Says USMNT Shouldn't Take Klinsmann To The Next World Cup

It's always nice to see my comment at the top of a Deadspin article.

Though now we'll have to listen to Siddiqui rant about how much he hates Billy Haisley

[Grover]

*whistles*

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

This is why I hate discussing the USMNT on this board. The opinions are so polar opposite on the state of the team that there's no point in even debating it.

There is no point in debating something unless people believe exactly the same as you do?

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is no point in debating something unless people believe exactly the same as you do?

There's no point in debating when nobody ever reaches a middle ground.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Look how awful Bradley has been since coming back from Europe.

But he's been awful in MLS as well, so that really doesn't prove that much. A counter example is Clint Dempsey who hasn't regressed at all since coming back from Europe. He may even be better.

And yes, Haisley is a waste of space. He's a Ted Westervelt who has a slightly more respectable podium. Of course that doesn't mean he's right once a year or so... but even when he's right he screws up.

[Grover]

Yeah, Bradley's awfulness was an all around thing.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

There's no point in debating when nobody ever reaches a middle ground.

Welcome to the internet?

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Welcome to the internet?

Exactly why I avoid forums and controversial topics on Facebook for the most part

Really, I should just stick to the dynasty forum.

[ISiddiqui]

And here, is where I think Haisley goes off the rails in his article, which mostly was ok(ish):

America could’ve gotten on fine along the trajectory we’ve been on since the 90s as the rough and rugged band of mediocre but dedicated players whose regular “overachievements” in international play are in the form of the odd World Cup Round of 16 qualification.

It's like everyone seems to forget the years that Bruce Arena was coaching the national team. Why is that? If you look at OPTA stats, you'll find that the 2002 WC wasn't just a fluke, but it was the USMNT with the most possession and attacking play in US WC history. The 2006 team for its poor results also didn't do all that badly on those levels. The 2014 team, FWIW, had the worst possession and shots of any US team since the 1990s. And the main issue is that if you think Klinsmann is doing a good "long view" job of changing the underpinnings, then it sounds like he may be a decent Technical Director. Which he is... but you don't have to be the Technical Director AND Manager. And perhaps Klinsmann should just take the front office job and leave the Manager position to someone is more tactically astute and can find those the diamonds in the rough. There seem to be plenty in the U23 region it appears.

[Grover]

Sure, but who do you get to replace him? That's a massive move to make in a WC cycle.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Sure, but who do you get to replace him? That's a massive move to make in a WC cycle.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned a list before. Caleb Porter, Peter Vermes, etc. And heck, Mexico just replaced their coach and I bet Osorio (also a former MLS coach, btw) is going to be better than Herrera, though less entertaining.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned a list before. Caleb Porter, Peter Vermes, etc. And heck, Mexico just replaced their coach and I bet Osorio (also a former MLS coach, btw) is going to be better than Herrera, though less entertaining.

Well, you know, attacking the press will make a federation want to change managers

Also, Brendan Rodgers is available!

[ISiddiqui]

Also in talking about a massive move to make in a WC Cycle, when do you think Bob Bradley was fired? I'm positive that if a European national team faltered badly in Euro2016, the national team manager would be canned regardless of it being only 2 years from the 2018 WC.

Heck, I know you jest, but Rodgers isn't a terrible choice for manager (the issues at Liverpool are ones that he'd likely not have at a country level) - he'd likely not want the job though.