Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[sovereignstar v2]

Lol. US forwards in a class of their own

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

The relative lack of finishing skill is apparent.

I repeat.

[sovereignstar v2]

Masterclass by Wright. Move over Lionel

[albionmoonlight]

As a guy who does not follow this much at all, I was happy with the US this tournament. They seemed to have a chance and they played like it, versus the last few cups where they played like they were just trying to lose by as little as possible.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

As a guy who does not follow this much at all, I was happy with the US this tournament. They seemed to have a chance and they played like it, versus the last few cups where they played like they were just trying to lose by as little as possible.

As another guy who really doesn't follow this at all, isn't this the cycle this team is perpetually in? Make it to the knockout stage, get immediately knocked out, everyone all THIS TEAM IS ON THE RIGHT TRACK! THIS IS GOING TO SPARK A WHOLE NEW INTEREST IN SOCCER!! Next time, either they don't make it out of the group stage or don't make the tournament. Wringing of hands. Rinse, repeat.

[GrantDawg]

Next time they are in guaranteed as a host country. If they can go on a good run in 4 years, it will be big.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Next time, either they don't make it out of the group stage or don't make the tournament.

Next time it will be the obnoxious 48-country format. The USA will get a 3-team group, with one opponent on the level of Wales and Iran and the 3rd opponent the level of a team that didn't make the final tournament. Not to mention that it's likely they will be handed a favorable schedule where a stalemate 0-0 draw in their final group match will put them and their opponents that day both into the round of 32.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Next time it will be the obnoxious 48-country format.

I think I just figured out what the model for the CFP must be.

"Don't stop until there are more teams involved than there are relatively competitive teams"

[Solecismic]

It was definitely a different vibe than Cups past for the USA team. They have some energetic, skilled young players.

I was fooled into thinking they had solved some defensive issues after going through the group stage with no goals allowed other than the penalty. Some serious lapses, not really understanding how a counter-attack offense works. The back four can't ever stop watching, even for a second.

They obviously could use a great finisher, but those don't come along very often. Pulisic is a gamer, you could see he wasn't 100% and was playing in some pain there. 75% of Pulisic is still a big asset. I think I'm thoroughly tired of Dest, though he'd probably be really good at eating time with a one-goal lead in the closing moments - if he ever lasted that long.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Next time it will be the obnoxious 48-country format. The USA will get a 3-team group, with one opponent on the level of Wales and Iran and the 3rd opponent the level of a team that didn't make the final tournament. Not to mention that it's likely they will be handed a favorable schedule where a stalemate 0-0 draw in their final group match will put them and their opponents that day both into the round of 32.

It's not finalized yet. Fingers crossed FIFA realizes how dumb 3 team groups are and moves to 12 4's at least by then. Which somehow wasn't even an option when they initially debated 48.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's not finalized yet. Fingers crossed FIFA realizes how dumb 3 team groups are and moves to 12 4's at least by then. Which somehow wasn't even an option when they initially debated 48.

I would hope it's not final yet, but until then, I'll ridicule the broken 3-team group idea anytime the WC2026 format gets mentioned.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I would hope it's not final yet, but until then, I'll ridicule the broken 3-team group idea anytime the WC2026 format gets mentioned.

Why not? It's not like we've just seen how important having the last group matches at the same time are, and how much drama they can create.

[sovereignstar v2]

Want to see England and their six City players (I count Jude as one already) advance, but for the sake of the match I wish Mane was playing for Senegal.

[miami_fan]

Oh England just needed me to come in from hanging up the Christmas lights and watch the match to score?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Next time it will be the obnoxious 48-country format. The USA will get a 3-team group, with one opponent on the level of Wales and Iran and the 3rd opponent the level of a team that didn't make the final tournament. Not to mention that it's likely they will be handed a favorable schedule where a stalemate 0-0 draw in their final group match will put them and their opponents that day both into the round of 32.

I haven't been paying attention, but is the plan that the round of 32 will be made up of 16 group winners and 16 runners-up? So the group stage only eliminates 16 teams (who likely wouldn't have made previous finals)?

In most groups that's going to mean only one game, at most, is meaningful. Like, Brazil gets grouped with Scotland and Ivory Coast and annhiliates both of them. So, Scotland vs. Ivory Coast is the only game that matters, and since they're both on 0 points, goal difference doesn't matter. Sure, I guess that's fun for Scotland and Ivory Coast fans, but what was the point of making Brazil play two pushover games?

Oh wait, money.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It was definitely a different vibe than Cups past for the USA team. They have some energetic, skilled young players.

Yeah, the difference this time seems to be that basically the whole team is young, and the few who aren't are apparently replaceable. Usually in the past there's some star in his prime (or just barely past it) that the USA was trying to leverage, but the one star here, Pulisic, is still pre-prime.

I was fooled into thinking they had solved some defensive issues after going through the group stage with no goals allowed other than the penalty.

That's kind of the problem with group stages. If England had really needed a win I think (or would hope) that Southgate would have played a more aggressive team and/or style, so the result there makes one think the US was better than we thought.

Honestly, I think the defense did about as expected for a starting 5 that includes a reserve keeper for Arsenal who doesn't play, a fullback for Milan who hasn't broken into the team, two defenders on EPL team Fulham who have let in more goals than all but 4 teams in that league, and another defender who plays in the MLS, which is closer to the Scottish Championship in quality than, say, the UK's 2nd tier.

The same idea runs through most of the rest of the squad, who are either playing for teams that run the gamut from, say, the Eredivisie to the MLS, or are on English/Italian/German/Spanish teams and either a) not playing regularly or b) not playing with a lot of distinction.

But arguably this is a positive. You have so many young players already in top or near-top leagues and so starting to get better competition, that it's potentially reasonable to expect a much greater proportion in 4 years to be coming in with strong experience in those top leagues, which will make a lot of difference.


In the meantime, however, USA Soccer and whomever the HC continues to be needs to determine if a 9 is going to emerge from that group (my understanding is that Reyna is not a 9) or if they can play without a true 9. That's tough to do at the international level, when you can't really control where they play. Maybe Reyna can be a great False 9 which would unlock Pulisic and Weah (if he continues to improve), but do we see Dortmund playing him as a False 9? I don't think you can get cute like this at international level unless you have players playing unique positions regularly for their club teams.

[miami_fan]

Do we need spoilers for today's matches?

[Ghost Econ]

We need something other than a penalty for when your fouled at the edge of the box running away from goal.

[Solecismic]

Generally, it's odd to spoiler events that are shown live. Especially major ones, where you'll see the score on the front page of most sports sites. I wouldn't start a new item with "Netherlands 3, USA 1" immediately after the match here, but I would stay away from the internet entirely if I had DVRed a match and didn't want to see anything.

I did with the USA/Netherlands match, but my wife gave it away simply by the tone of her "I know you're taping this, so I won't say anything." I've been with her too long not to know when she's excited to talk about something and when she isn't.

Given the way Japan had played in group stage and Croatia not being one of the big five or six heavily favored squads out there, maybe that was the most compelling of the round of 16. The match going on right now doesn't exactly fall into the intriguing category. I guess you never know, but it seems like the extra time added for celebrations will make this the longest match of the entire tournament.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

The match going on right now doesn't exactly fall into the intriguing category. I guess you never know, but it seems like the extra time added for celebrations will make this the longest match of the entire tournament.

The possibility of a 7-1 OR 9-0?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

In most groups that's going to mean only one game, at most, is meaningful. Like, Brazil gets grouped with Scotland and Ivory Coast and annhiliates both of them. So, Scotland vs. Ivory Coast is the only game that matters, and since they're both on 0 points, goal difference doesn't matter. Sure, I guess that's fun for Scotland and Ivory Coast fans, but what was the point of making Brazil play two pushover games?

Yes. Except that in schedule situations that doesn't work out that way. Here's a couple of collaboration scenarios that could wind down:

Brazil 2-0 Scotland
Scotland 1-1 Ivory Coast; Brazil to 2nd round
Brazil 0-0 Ivory Coast; Scotland fucked

Ivory Coast 1-1 Scotland
Brazil 2-0 Ivory Coast; Brazil to 2nd round
Brazil 0-0 Scotland; Ivory Coast fucked

Ivory Coast 0-0 Scotland
Brazil 1-1 Scotland; nobody qualified yet?
Brazil 2-2 Ivory Coast; Scotland fucked

/rant

[MIJB#19]

... and if Brazil actually plays both the first and second match:
Brazil 2-0 Scotland
Brazil 1-0 Ivory Coast; Brazil qualifies
Ivory Coast parks the bus vs Scotland
or
Brazil 2-0 Scotland
Brazil 0-1 Ivory Coast; Brazil qualifies
Ivory Coast parks the bus vs Scotland
or
Brazil 2-0 Scotland
Brazil 0-0 Ivory Coast; Brazil qualifies
Ivory Coast parks the bus vs Scotland

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, that's not good reading, MIJB....

[flere-imsaho]

The sad part here is that absent corruption or the grasping need for FIFA to make as much money as possible, you could probably have a reasonable discussion about what kind of format delivers the best results, starting by defining "best".

Let's say the goals were to a) incorporate a lot of teams and b) have fewer meaningless games. If you had to stick with 3-team groups because of overall duration, then let each group winner get in, but pick the other 16 on points, then GF, then GD, regardless of group. Better yet, go to 12 groups of 4, let the top two get in, and then another 8 based on points, then GF, then GD, regardless of group. Then instead of pre-planning groups against groups, just seed by tier 1-32:

Group winners are 1-12 based on points, then GF, then GD.
Group runners-up are 13-24, based on points, then GF, then GD.
Lucky bitches are 25-32, based on points, then GF, then GD.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yeah, the difference this time seems to be that basically the whole team is young, and the few who aren't are apparently replaceable. Usually in the past there's some star in his prime (or just barely past it) that the USA was trying to leverage, but the one star here, Pulisic, is still pre-prime.

They have way more talent than I can ever remember. Like you said, used to have 1 or 2 stars in their prime but not much else. Now they have a much deeper team.

Feels like their midfield is set for the next cycle. They'll need to figure out CB, but it appears there are options. The rumor mill keeps talking about Balogun committing which would be a really nice answer up front.

They still need to upgrade from Berhalter if they want to ever be serious about competing with the elite teams. What they choose to do with that will say a lot about the future direction of the team.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm perfectly fine with the Brazilians dancing to celebrate their goals, because this is supposed to be entertainment, but it would have been classy if, when South Korea scored what was an excellent goal they gave the player some kudos on the field.

[miami_fan]

Is there an international manager that their country's fans actually like?

[Solecismic]

If you've DVRed this one, just skip regulation time. I might edit this to skipping the overtime periods in a half-hour or so.

The referee could have added a lot of extra time for all the Moroccan rolling about on the turf, but I think he's had enough of Spain's eternal possession without threat, too.

[Ghost Econ]

Making 1000 passes and putting 1 shot on target is not what would be considered efficient.

[Solecismic]

Added time had at least some moments. Morocco's finishing makes the USA look deadly by comparison. Spain actually took some interest in the goal, but the best chance, right at the end, was an impossible angle and glanced off the post. On to penalty kicks, which I think was Morocco's strategy since the game of soccer was invented.

[sovereignstar v2]

.............

[Ksyrup]

Remarkable.

[Solecismic]

The Spanish efforts were so awful they might as well have tried passing to teammates on the sidelines. Morocco's were hardly better, but it was more than enough. What an awful display of soccer today.

[Ghost Econ]

It's like the goal was water and Spain has rabies.

[Critch]

Today was the first game I skipped, a boring defensive team against a boring possession team, had 0-0 written all over it.

Not holding out much hope for the next game either.

[miami_fan]

Act like you’ve been there Morocco! All this excessive celebration is too much! Stop acting like you have already won the World Cup!

#sarcasm

[whomario]

Ronaldo on the bench

[miami_fan]

My mother in law (half Spanish, half German) has spent the last 45 minutes with her sister yelling and cussing about the Spanish defeat. Tactics, heart, management are all being slaughtered. She will definitely spend most of the night doing her rosary for these sins.

[Ghost Econ]

Ramos >>>> Ronaldo

[whomario]

Goal of the tournament so far this 4-0, perfection from start to finish.

[sovereignstar v2]

Ronaldo >> Ramos >> Cristiano Ronaldo

[miami_fan]

This might be the most delightful result of the tournament for me. I feel for the Swiss but Portugal being dominated, Ramos getting a hat trick and Ronaldo not scoring is a perfect scenario for me.

[flere-imsaho]

Ronaldo's appeal to potential suitors in the January transfer window just cratered. I think he's looking at China or Saudi Arabia at this point. He's a net negative to any team not explicity set up to feed him the ball in high xG situations, and even then it appears he can no longer convert those at the rate he used to.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Ronaldo's appeal to potential suitors in the January transfer window just cratered. I think he's looking at China or Saudi Arabia at this point. He's a net negative to any team not explicity set up to feed him the ball in high xG situations, and even then it appears he can no longer convert those at the rate he used to.

I think you are forgetting the dearth of competent strikers in club football. Diego Costa just signed with a club because they needed a striker. Also, club owners know they will make a mint selling Ronaldo shirts around the world to all the Ronaldo fans. Finally, I also think Ronaldo needs to be in a system that is explicitly set up for him to score goals. But it is equally important for him that we see him score those goals. Now he may go to China or Saudi because he has to take the two hundred million euros per season to feed his family. His pride may not allow him to lower himself to play for clubs that did not make the top ten on Forbes most valued clubs lists. However, Ronaldo can definitely still play for a mid level club in one of the top European leagues and there are definitely clubs that will scrap everything they do to get him in their club colors.

[flere-imsaho]

Agreed, generally, but I should have added the context that he's going to be holding out for a club still in the UCL or (possibly) the Europa league, and I don't know how many of those need a striker so badly that they're willing to gamble like that.

I do agree that there are definitely plenty of European teams who will be happy to sign him for the commercial revenue alone.

[flere-imsaho]

dola, I mean, that's what makes this so fascinating. Based on how he was playing for Man Utd this Autumn, he's still somewhat in denial about his declining abilities, so a team that signs him is going to have to try and figure out how to work around that in a way that doesn't compromise the team.

Specifically, it appears he still thinks he has the pace to play on the counter, but that's mostly not true anymore.

In addition, he's lost enough accuracy that he's no longer as lethal as he once was in penalty area situations.

He still wants to take free kicks, but his success rate has been declining there, too.

And, of course, he brings no defensive work rate.

My point is that you can probably define "here's how we could successfully use Ronaldo", but I don't think he's ready to agree to a role that adequately addresses his diminished abilities. So, he'll clog space because he wants the ball fed to him, he'll command a high usage rate, and he'll invite balls played on the counter that he can't turn into opportunities.

I still think he can be effective, perhaps very effective, for the right side, but all of these factors (including clubs willing to take risks, man-management abilities of various managers, etc...) are what makes this story so fascinating.

[sterlingice]

I don't know soccer at an international level very well but this sounds like Russell Westbrook the last few years

SI

[flere-imsaho]

It's really just been this season (the physical decline, at least). He still had good speed and lethal finishing for Man Utd last season (though his lack of off-the-ball movement was a key contributor to the team being predictable on offense).

[MIJB#19]

The way Cristiano Ronaldo talked Manchester United and its ownership down, how could he walk with a straight face into a club that doesn't still compete in the Champions' League and also isn't known for money grabbing? I mean, those two things just don't compute, it's either joining a circle jerk club or accept getting paid below €500K per day.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

dola, I mean, that's what makes this so fascinating. Based on how he was playing for Man Utd this Autumn, he's still somewhat in denial about his declining abilities, so a team that signs him is going to have to try and figure out how to work around that in a way that doesn't compromise the team.

Specifically, it appears he still thinks he has the pace to play on the counter, but that's mostly not true anymore.

In addition, he's lost enough accuracy that he's no longer as lethal as he once was in penalty area situations.

He still wants to take free kicks, but his success rate has been declining there, too.

And, of course, he brings no defensive work rate.

My point is that you can probably define "here's how we could successfully use Ronaldo", but I don't think he's ready to agree to a role that adequately addresses his diminished abilities. So, he'll clog space because he wants the ball fed to him, he'll command a high usage rate, and he'll invite balls played on the counter that he can't turn into opportunities.

I still think he can be effective, perhaps very effective, for the right side, but all of these factors (including clubs willing to take risks, man-management abilities of various managers, etc...) are what makes this story so fascinating.

TBH, I am probably also in denial of what his physical abilities are right now because I think he still has the ability to perform at the highest level. I just think he has refused to put forth the effort other than to score goals to be top level consistently.

Is Ronaldo at 37 the same as Ronaldo at 27? Absolutely not. Can he perform at a Ballon d'Or level week in week out for an entire season? No. But can he do all the things that you listed (well besides free kicks) by just given a bit of effort and being less selfish? Absolutely. His desire for it to be all about him scoring goals has hurt him and his teams way more than any decline in his athletic ability or skills IMO.