Invasion of Ukraine

[flere-imsaho]

While I agree that U.S. foreign policy needed (and needs) to work harder to challenge China's growing sphere of influence, it should be noted that Trump unilaterally withdrew the U.S. from the TPP, a trade deal designed specifically with this as one of its aims.

And, as a further consequence, China was able to engineer an even larger Asian trading bloc.

[NobodyHere]

It's doubtful congress would've ratified the TPP anyways.

[JPhillips]

I swear, you purposefully misstate how dual citizenship works just to torment me.

There's no record in the US of who has citizenship from other countries and no good way to go about getting that information. Then, there's no way for a person in country X to go about renouncing citizenship of country Y. They'd have to go back to the other country and even then it isn't always possible.

Basically everyone that was born on foreign soil or has a foreign national parent has dual citizenship and it makes no difference to the resident country.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I swear, you purposefully misstate how dual citizenship works just to torment me.

There's no record in the US of who has citizenship from other countries and no good way to go about getting that information. Then, there's no way for a person in country X to go about renouncing citizenship of country Y. They'd have to go back to the other country and even then it isn't always possible.

Basically everyone that was born on foreign soil or has a foreign national parent has dual citizenship and it makes no difference to the resident country.

You are wrong. Of course the US knows what other country you are from before becoming a US citizen. It is definitely in the computers somewhere at INS. The US just doesn't want nor care enough to pursue it.

You are also wrong about "no way for a person in country X to go about renouncing citizenship of country Y. They'd have to go back to the other country ...". I formally renounced my other citizenship in the US at the other country's embassy. Easy enough to do, fill out a form and hand in that other passport.

You may have a point about China specifically and your child's adoption. But you are wrong when you say "no way" or "no record" in the broader sense.

We've had this discussion before. You think I'm wrong, I know you are wrong from my personal experience.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You are wrong. Of course the US knows what other country you are from before becoming a US citizen. It is definitely in the computers somewhere at INS. The US just doesn't want nor care enough to pursue it.

You are also wrong about "no way for a person in country X to go about renouncing citizenship of country Y. They'd have to go back to the other country ...". I formally renounced my other citizenship in the US at the other country's embassy. Easy enough to do, fill out a form and hand in that other passport.

You may have a point about China specifically and your child's adoption. But you are wrong when you say "no way" or "no record" in the broader sense.

We've had this discussion before. You think I'm wrong, I know you are wrong from my personal experience.

I have zero faith for people to actually put an ounce of effort into tracking that. I am a dual citizen, US and England, I needed a passport 3 years ago. I had one before, served in the US military, the passport agency can see I am a naturalized citizen through my A number, yet they rejected my request. Why? They now want a copy of my N-565 form, which by the way costs over $500.00, which I paid for and requested 3 years ago, which I still don't have.

There is so much needless red tape in the morass that is US immigration, they are not going to put any effort into accurately recording/tracking duals, at least not until the next boogeyman from some other country appears.

By the way, I contacted the nearest British embassy and I can send my birth certificate and have my British passport in 4-6 weeks. When I stop being stubborn over insisting I get it from the US I will relent and do it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I have zero faith for people to actually put an ounce of effort into tracking that. I am a dual citizen, US and England, I needed a passport 3 years ago. I had one before, served in the US military, the passport agency can see I am a naturalized citizen through my A number, yet they rejected my request. Why? They now want a copy of my N-565 form, which by the way costs over $500.00, which I paid for and requested 3 years ago, which I still don't have.

There is so much needless red tape in the morass that is US immigration, they are not going to put any effort into accurately recording/tracking duals, at least not until the next boogeyman from some other country appears.

By the way, I contacted the nearest British embassy and I can send my birth certificate and have my British passport in 4-6 weeks. When I stop being stubborn over insisting I get it from the US I will relent and do it.

Certainly do not disagree that it's a hassle and INS is inefficient. The orig context to the discussion was "no record" and "no way to renounce". The US does not want nor care enough (certainly when born US and become dual citizen of another country) but if you are naturalized, there is a record of prior citizenship in a database somewhere, easy enough to do some SQL joins.

I take it you've not tried to renounce the UK citizenship? Just to show that its doable with the UK if you want to ...

https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/print

Fill in the form online. You’ll usually be able to keep your documents while your application is being processed.

If you live in the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or a British overseas territory, you have to apply in person or by post instead. Check which you can do with your governor’s office.

If you live elsewhere, you can apply by post. This will take much longer than applying online because of coronavirus (COVID-19). Avoid applying by post, especially if you need your documents back by a specific date.

You’ll get a ‘declaration of renunciation’ if your application is successful. This will be your application form, officially signed and stamped.

The date your citizenship or status stops will be shown on the form.

So just challenging what JPhillips said is demonstrably false in the broader sense (with maybe an exception with the intricacies of Chinese adoption). There is a process to renounce UK citizenship and in my prior country of birth.

[larrymcg421]

I love the idea of throwing "no, this isn't racist" at the end of a statement and then adding no explanation whatsoever. Like the phrase is a get out of racist free card.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I love the idea of throwing "no, this isn't racist" at the end of a statement and then adding no explanation whatsoever. Like the phrase is a get out of racist free card.

Ask and you shall receive (shortly).

[larrymcg421]

I didn't ask and have no interest in receiving.

[JPhillips]

Going to the embassy is going back to that country. My point was that you can't renounce citizenship of another country in the US and the US doesn't and for some countries probably can't track that information.

And you're only talking about naturalized citizens, but there are lots of people that are born with dual citizenship and the US government has no way of tracking that information.

I suppose you could make people renounce their previous citizenship before being naturalized, but then that would just allow the first country to deny the request so that people couldn't immigrate to the US. Do you want to provide China a way to keep all Chinese citizens from ever becoming American citizens?

[Edward64]

Bonus answer from wiki on "no way to renounce" for China citizenships naturalized to US citizenship

Chinese nationality law - Wikipedia

Chinese nationality can be relinquished by making a declaration of renunciation.[51] It is also automatically revoked when persons from mainland China who reside abroad voluntarily acquire a foreign nationality.[52]

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Going to the embassy is going back to that country. My point was that you can't renounce citizenship of another country in the US and the US doesn't and for some countries probably can't track that information.

See UK link I provided to BYU above. Again, you obviously can renounce citizenship without going to the prior country or embassy. I just shared my personal experience.

And you're only talking about naturalized citizens, but there are lots of people that are born with dual citizenship and the US government has no way of tracking that information.

I don't have any expertise on those born with dual citizenship. I'll put that under exceptions that I mentioned.

I suppose you could make people renounce their previous citizenship before being naturalized, but then that would just allow the first country to deny the request so that people couldn't immigrate to the US. Do you want to provide China a way to keep all Chinese citizens from ever becoming American citizens?

Again, don't see why it has to be "before". Do it "after" you get US citizenship. I've shown you there are processes in place to do it (and no, you don't need to leave the US).

So getting back to original discussion topic

There's no record in the US of who has citizenship from other countries and no good way to go about getting that information. .

False. I'll grant you there are exceptions but definitely not holistically like your statement.

Then, there's no way for a person in country X to go about renouncing citizenship of country Y. They'd have to go back to the other country and even then it isn't always possible.

Again false, Demonstrably so. Maybe some exceptions for Chinese adoption.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I didn't ask and have no interest in receiving.

Okay, np. Feel free to continue to snipe and troll as majority of your other bros.

[JPhillips]

I'm not talking about physically returning to the other country, just that you have to file any paperwork with country X, not with the US government. Country X doesn't then forward the paperwork to the US, and I'm sure some countries wouldn't if asked, for example, China.

As for citizenship status in China, that may be how the law is worded, but it isn't enforced. We left China with a Chinese passport that was still good and Chinese citizenship documents. Someone like Eileen Gu retained citizenship due to her mother's citizenship. In practice, the Chinese government isn't revoking citizenship, in part I expect due to the problem of not knowing who is given citizenship in other countries.

[NobodyHere]

Who knew that mundane citizenship procedures could spark a heated argument around here?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not talking about physically returning to the other country, just that you have to file any paperwork with country X, not with the US government. Country X doesn't then forward the paperwork to the US, and I'm sure some countries wouldn't if asked, for example, China.

As for citizenship status in China, that may be how the law is worded, but it isn't enforced. We left China with a Chinese passport that was still good and Chinese citizenship documents. Someone like Eileen Gu retained citizenship due to her mother's citizenship. In practice, the Chinese government isn't revoking citizenship, in part I expect due to the problem of not knowing who is given citizenship in other countries.

I don't disagree with what you say (well, maybe about how Eileen "retained" citizenship vs given a free pass). I disagreed with your 2 points that you originally used to respond to my bullets.

I hope, at the very least, you can see that I did not "purposefully misstate how dual citizenship works".

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Who knew that mundane citizenship procedures could spark a heated argument around here?

Where were you in the Trump thread? It's been discussed a couple times before.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Okay, np. Feel free to continue to snipe and troll as majority of your other bros.

If I was trolling, I would've let you waste time on an explanation I wasn't interested in.

If you don't see how ridiculous it sounds to make a statement, then at the end add a disclaimer "no this isn't racist", then I can't help you. For me, I generally try to avoid saying anything where I'd feel the need to add such a disclaimer.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If I was trolling, I would've let you waste time on an explanation I wasn't interested in.

If you don't see how ridiculous it sounds to make a statement, then at the end add a disclaimer "no this isn't racist", then I can't help you. For me, I generally try to avoid saying anything where I'd feel the need to add such a disclaimer.

Didn’t know that because you typically don’t say much other than toss in zingers when trying to be relevant. Feel free to ignore me like your other bros.

[Mota]

Hey everybody, what's going on with the invasion of Ukraine like the subject says?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I take it you've not tried to renounce the UK citizenship? Just to show that its doable with the UK if you want to ...

https://www.gov.uk/renounce-british-nationality/print

No desire to renounce my English citizenship, proud to be a dual citizen of both countries, despite the warts of both, and ending up there in retirement is still very much on the table.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Mota

Hey everybody, what's going on with the invasion of Ukraine like the subject says?

(Slick, I see what you did there)

Basically, just from the top of my head ...

Some pretty horrific pics; a video of a Stinger taking down a Russian helicopter and it crashing; no Mig-for-F16 deal; no NATO membership anytime soon; possible fast tracked EU membership; NATO supplying a ton of anti-tank, anti-air weapons; supposedly 16k to 40k foreigners have volunteered for Ukraine's International Legion; Russians are intentionally bombing hospitals & killing civilians; the 40-60 km convoy is stuck; Kyiv is surround or about to be; Kyiv could fall anytime depending on who you ask; at least a couple Russian generals killed; India is neutral; China officially neutral (but we know better); lots of displaced refugees; accusations of Ukrainian racism in getting Africans & Indians out; fears of Russia doing something bad with the nuclear power plants they have control over; ship that took Snake Island was destroyed; some Russian soldiers calling home and also holding press briefing; McD's (and many others) out of Russia; Russian economy is cratering; Russian support for the war is still surprisingly high (but may be due to misinformation & some patriotism going on); Putin is hidden away in some bomb shelter; ruble exchange rate is like 1:130 to 1:150; Russian will stop grain exports; west won't be importing Russian oil (but think, will still be importing Russian gas); MOEX stock exchange for the most part closed; oligarchs have some toys taken away; Ukrainians are really suffering; common Russian folks will start really suffering; negotiations have broken off without much result

Zelenskyy will be relected President for rest of his life (if Ukraine survives); Putin will be relected President for rest of his life if he survives; Xi will be relected Premier for rest of his life; odds are that Biden won't be reelected in 2024

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

No desire to renounce my English citizenship, proud to be a dual citizen of both countries, despite the warts of both, and ending up there in retirement is still very much on the table.

Do I know you? Wife run marathons by chance?

Wife has a friend. Her friend and husband are Brits and became naturalized citizens. Son born here.

They also think they'll eventually retire in UK after son graduates and starts working.

[albionmoonlight]

In a speech to supporters, Rep. Madison Cawthorn (R-NC) called President Zelenskyy "a thug."

"Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies," he said.@WRAL has the video: https://t.co/9zx73FP5Il

— David Gura (@davidgura) March 10, 2022

One of Putin's many mistakes seems to have been recruiting his Congressfolk from among those too stupid to keep the quiet parts quiet.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

While I agree that U.S. foreign policy needed (and needs) to work harder to challenge China's growing sphere of influence, it should be noted that Trump unilaterally withdrew the U.S. from the TPP, a trade deal designed specifically with this as one of its aims.

And, as a further consequence, China was able to engineer an even larger Asian trading bloc.

Also remember that Jimmy Carter was right and a lot of the people complaining about gas prices were people who supported the policies that led to it.

[RainMaker]

We forecast annual average growth in 2022 of -15% for Russia. This growth rate compares the average level of GDP in 2022 to that in 2021, so the implied GDP drop is far deeper at near 30% (dots). Russia's GDP goes back to early 2000 levels. Two decades of growth go up in smoke... pic.twitter.com/YvsEggtBMj

— Robin Brooks (@RobinBrooksIIF) March 9, 2022

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We forecast annual average growth in 2022 of -15% for Russia. This growth rate compares the average level of GDP in 2022 to that in 2021, so the implied GDP drop is far deeper at near 30% (dots). Russia's GDP goes back to early 2000 levels. Two decades of growth go up in smoke... pic.twitter.com/YvsEggtBMj

— Robin Brooks (@RobinBrooksIIF) March 9, 2022

Play stupid games; win stupid prizes.

[Flasch186]

Cawthorn

Holy shot

How is the guy still allowed to be there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ksyrup]

There's an off-color joke about Cawthorn seriously backpeddling on his comments but I... oh wait, that's it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

How is the guy still allowed to be there?

Up until a couple of weeks ago, this was mostly the party line.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

Also remember that Jimmy Carter was right and a lot of the people complaining about gas prices were people who supported the policies that led to it.

Yep. Carter was better than he's given credit for most of the time.

[Edward64]

Kinda makes sense that Putin would ask friendlies to come join the fight. It shows weakness because Russia should be able to handle this themselves but I can understand as they underestimated duration and the western world's response with military equipment, economic embargo etc.

And uptick in escalation but its not as if the west hasn't escalated either. I wonder how Syrian fighters would fare in the cold, will some desert, can they even communicate (do Syrians speak Russian?).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60705486

Russian President Vladimir Putin has called for foreign volunteers to be able to fight against Ukrainian forces.

Speaking at a Russian security council meeting, he said those who wanted to volunteer to fight with Russia-backed forces should be allowed to.

Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said there were 16,000 volunteers in the Middle East ready to fight alongside Russia-backed forces.

US officials said these could include Syrians skilled in urban combat.

Moscow is a long-standing ally of Syria and Mr Putin has been a key backer of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in the country's civil war.

"If you see that there are these people who want of their own accord, not for money, to come to help the people living in Donbas, then we need to give them what they want and help them get to the conflict zone," Mr Putin told his defence minister.

Mr Shoigu also proposed handing over captured Western anti-tank missile systems to Russian-backed rebel fighters in the breakaway Ukrainian regions of Luhansk and Donetsk in the Donbas region.

"Please do this," Mr Putin said.

[Edward64]

Had a good chuckle (and was thinking about a couple FOFC members that can really learn from this and ramp up their trolling A-game). Wouldn't want this to happen to the common Russian but I view them as an extension of the propaganda apparatus.

If I was being bombarded with endless trolling calls and texts, I'd change my number. I know my T-Mobile anti-spam works but it's not near 100%. I know it'll be a hassle to change with the cell service, change with online accounts, letting friends & family know etc. but definitely better than this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60705486

On Thursday’s episode of The Evening With Vladimir Soloviev, state TV propagandist Vladimir Soloviev complained that he and editor-in-chief of RT Margarita Simonyan are being terrorized by unknown individuals, receiving endless calls and texts about Russia’s military activities in Ukraine. He griped: “Margarita and I can show our telephones to demonstrate that we’re getting a thousand calls and texts per hour.”

Several days earlier, two other state TV propagandists, Olga Skabeeva and her husband Evgeny Popov, also reported a barrage of calls. Skabeeva, who hosts the state TV show 60 Minutes, angrily yelled that Ukrainians or their supporters have been “endlessly calling everybody, everybody, all citizens of Russia, including me and Evgeny!” Later in the show, she loudly interrupted a panelist to grumble about being subjected to a “mass attack that started at 2 a.m… we started getting calls from the territory of Ukraine, two to three minutes apart, Ukrainian and Polish phone numbers calling nonstop… And then, text messages with threats to kill me and my family, and photos—endless photos—of corpses, which they say are the corpses of Russian soldiers!”

[Edward64]

Read a post about Putin's mistress Alina Kabaeva and their 4 kids living in Switzerland. Don't think you can do much with kids born in Switzerland, and the article says mistress may have Swiss citizenship also. But it sure would be nice if the mistress could be "deported for falsifying (something)", sent back to Russia, and introduce another big headache for Putin.

“While Putin carries out his assault on the Ukraine, attacking innocent citizens and causing a refugee crisis, his family is holed up in a very private and very secure chalet somewhere in Switzerland — for now, at least,” a source told us.

Kabaeva, an Olympic gold medal-winning gymnast, reportedly has four children with the Russian leader, 69, but the two have never officially confirmed it.

Sources say they share 7-year-old twin daughters, who were born near Lugano, Switzerland, in February 2015. It is believed they also have two sons.

“Alina has two young boys and twin girls with Putin who were born in Switzerland,” a source told Page Six about Putin’s alleged children with Kabaeva, 38. “The kids all have Swiss passports, and I imagine she does also.”

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Kinda makes sense that Putin would ask friendlies to come join the fight. It shows weakness because Russia should be able to handle this themselves but I can understand as they underestimated duration and the western world's response with military equipment, economic embargo etc.

And uptick in escalation but its not as if the west hasn't escalated either. I wonder how Syrian fighters would fare in the cold, will some desert, can they even communicate (do Syrians speak Russian?).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60705486

That would be very weird.

I guess worldwide volunteers are going to fight for Ukraine against the Russian invasion, or against communism or just to defended the weak side.

But what about Syrians fighting vs Ukranians?? in the name of what? Syrians are not communist, they don't have any kind of historical relationship vs Ukraine nor any desire to go to the cold north far from home. So either they are paid mercenaries or forced to go by the Syrian government, but no way they are just volunteers.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Icy

That would be very weird.

I guess worldwide volunteers are going to fight for Ukraine against the Russian invasion, or against communism or just to defended the weak side.

But what about Syrians fighting vs Ukranians?? in the name of what? Syrians are not communist, they don't have any kind of historical relationship vs Ukraine nor any desire to go to the cold north far from home. So either they are paid mercenaries or forced to go by the Syrian government, but no way they are just volunteers.

Russia has been hanging out in Syria for years now so there is a some semblance of a relationship there. Beyond getting paid (reportedly $200-$300), it would not be surprising if the Syrians have bought into the same Russian propaganda against Ukraine that others have. Ukraine could serve as a proxy for the West.

It would not shock me if the Syrians were not the only ones offering up their services for a price.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Russia has been hanging out in Syria for years now so there is a some semblance of a relationship there. Beyond getting paid (reportedly $200-$300), it would not be surprising if the Syrians have bought into the same Russian propaganda against Ukraine that others have. Ukraine could serve as a proxy for the West.

It would not shock me if the Syrians were not the only ones offering up their services for a price.

If you're Russia, why not pay for foreign soldiers (other than maybe you won't get your money's worth)? The rules you're trying to hold the West to, you don't care about - they're just a tool to use against them and they're dumb enough to fall for it.

SI

[miami_fan]

Messaging back home and abroad?

Remember this is supposed to be about Russians soldiers coming saving the homeland and Russians in Ukraine from the Nazis. It does not work as well if the videos of the conquering don't have Russians in them.

Now it is not a major problem with the Kremlin's expertise in producing fakes videos but still. The idea that Russia has to hire foreign soldiers to defeat Ukraine is not something I think Putin came in thinking would be a requirement.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Russia has been hanging out in Syria for years now so there is a some semblance of a relationship there. Beyond getting paid (reportedly $200-$300), it would not be surprising if the Syrians have bought into the same Russian propaganda against Ukraine that others have. Ukraine could serve as a proxy for the West.

It would not shock me if the Syrians were not the only ones offering up their services for a price.

I think paying to get them to fight is reasonable. From what I've read, Ukraine's international legion are also going to get paid some including Ukrainian citizenship.

I can honestly see it as helping an ally. Russia help Assad stay in power. Assad is popular with some groups in Syria. But yeah, messaging is problematic. It'll probably work within Russia just because of the propaganda apparatus.

If I was Russia, I would also offer citizenship when it's all said and done. I can see that helping allies that live in way less fortunate circumstances. I'm not sure anyone would want to immigrate to Russia immediately, but 5-10 years, there will be a semblance of normalcy.

[Edward64]

Third Russian general to bite the dust. There's also that Chechnya "general" but won't count him.

I assume NATO intel is somehow helping these hits.

Ukraine latest news: Biden warns US intervention in Ukraine would mean WW3 - BBC News

Western officials have confirmed that a third Russian major general has been killed in Ukraine, adding that he was from Russia's eastern military district.

Officials didn't name the general, but earlier Ukraine's military said Maj Gen Andrei Kolesnikov, commander of the 29th army of Russia's eastern district, had been killed.

Analysts have previously said that the presence of high-ranking military figures on or near the battlefield could be a sign that Russia's operations are not going to plan.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

If you're Russia, why not pay for foreign soldiers (other than maybe you won't get your money's worth)? The rules you're trying to hold the West to, you don't care about - they're just a tool to use against them and they're dumb enough to fall for it.

SI

Maybe these Syrians feel like they've been liberated/supported by Russia in the wars inside Syria and now feel the courtesy to return the favor? Many western European countries blindly followed the USA in the invasion of Iraq, regardless whether the means were just. That's what allies sometimes do.

[cuervo72]

I know there are "World War III" concerns. Which I guess are mostly focused on nuclear weapons. But who else on the Russia side gets pulled in that they might not already?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I know there are "World War III" concerns. Which I guess are mostly focused on nuclear weapons. But who else on the Russia side gets pulled in that they might not already?

It heavily leans on what side China would pick, doesn't it?

[tarcone]

In a Nuke war it would be US, UK, France, Israeli vs. Russia

If China joins Russia, India joins us and Pakistan joins Russia.

You know who Iran and NK will side with, themselves.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

It heavily leans on what side China would pick, doesn't it?

And I get the impression China wants this proxy war to drain everyone else. I don't think they want WW3.

SI

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

And I get the impression China wants this proxy war to drain everyone else. I don't think they want WW3.

SI

Good point. Everyone gets war weary and they swoop in and take Taiwan

[cuervo72]

Well right, that's what I'm wondering. Would Pakistan or India even want to be bothered? I guess the question is, is Russia one of the major axes at this point. Forty years ago, sure. You have two superpowers, each with their stables. Does that still hold?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Well right, that's what I'm wondering. Would Pakistan or India even want to be bothered? I guess the question is, is Russia one of the major axes at this point. Forty years ago, sure. You have two superpowers, each with their stables. Does that still hold?

I think China would have to see a direct threat to their 20/50/100 year type plan to intervene. Maybe if they think the West unites a little too much? But, at most, they're going to just supply money and goods - I don't think they want to break out their military until they're perfectly ready to strike. Weakening Russia is good for them, long term - I don't think they see Russia as a partner so much as a resource to exploit. Weakening them globally helps China again, unless it gives the West or India or their Asian rivals too much power somehow. Like if they thought NATO would take over Russia and go imperialist, stripping it down for parts and resources, they'd be worried. They know the West won't do that so they're content to let them weaken themselves with this war for "ideology" and push Russia into an even more subservient position to them.

SI

[Solecismic]

It would defeat China's interests to become involved. Putin has been a useful idiot, but that's where it stops.

India and Pakistan want no part of this, but are content to let China lead Putin. According to Zelensky, Bennett (Israel's PM) just told him to surrender to Russia - I don't think Israel would get involved, either. The big question is whether NATO would stand firm, and I don't think that's a given if nuclear weapons are involved. Many NATO countries, certainly, but France, Italy, Germany? I doubt it.

Russia will step up this barbaric attack, because that's the only way they "win" their game. No matter what our government is saying now, we won't cross Russia's stated line in the sand because we don't want to find out what we already know about NATO.

[tarcone]

Remember when everyone was afraid that the UN would occupy the USA?

HAHA, good times.