NFL Week 2 Discussion Thread

[Greyroofoo]

Plus DaddyTorgo is wrong anyways.

Peyton had his jaw broken in a game against the Dolphins in which the Colts had a narrow lead. His replacement, former superbowl MVP Mark Rypien, botched the hand-off to the runningback. The Dolphins recovered the fumble and scored a TD thus causing the Colts to lose the game.


So from all this I feel I can reasonably infer that Peyton's replacement would cause a turnover every single play.

[tucker rocky]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...met-into-crowd

at:34, carrot top sure is an ugly bitch.

[sabotai]

Could pretty much see Jacobs wanting a trade coming. He's been pissy about being named the #2 RB. The guy just is not a team player, he has temper issues that costs the Giants 15 yards from time to time (it happened last night - right after the INT. Could have forced the Colts to start around their own 20 I think but his stupidity gives it to them near midfield).

He's a great physical talent, but also a major headache. The Giants may just get a slight positive net gain if they did trade him. Besides, he hasn't shown much of the same Jacobs from 2 years ago when he ran over people. I think the pounding his body has taken and given out has made him a bit gun shy when it comes to lowering the shoulder and plowing through the hole. He just doesn't seem to have that explosiveness anymore.

(He'll probably get it back once he leaves, of course. That's what always happens.)

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Plus DaddyTorgo is wrong anyways.

Peyton had his jaw broken in a game against the Dolphins in which the Colts had a narrow lead. His replacement, former superbowl MVP Mark Rypien, botched the hand-off to the runningback. The Dolphins recovered the fumble and scored a TD thus causing the Colts to lose the game.


So from all this I feel I can reasonably infer that Peyton's replacement would cause a turnover every single play.

And there's also the fact that Jim Sorgi played entire games prior to the playoffs starting and didn't come close to the success of Manning (much worse than how Cassell replaced Brady). Or Curtis Painter was a combined 8 for 28 for 83 yards (3 yards per attempt!) in his two fill-in assignments for Manning last year.

That being said, I think it's still too early to say Cassell was solely a product of the system...he hasn't had much to work with in KC.

[Fidatelo]

The idea that Manning is even possibly a product of his system is laughable. He is the system. I've never seen a QB dictate an offense to the degree he does it. He is basically a player/coach at this point.

Now, I'm not saying Brady is a system QB either. Brady seems to be the real deal to me as well, but it doesn't get any more obvious than Manning.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Logan

And there's also the fact that Jim Sorgi played entire games prior to the playoffs starting and didn't come close to the success of Manning (much worse than how Cassell replaced Brady). Or Curtis Painter was a combined 8 for 28 for 83 yards (3 yards per attempt!) in his two fill-in assignments for Manning last year.

That being said, I think it's still too early to say Cassell was solely a product of the system...he hasn't had much to work with in KC.

He also didn't start really at all between his time at Chatsworth High and his time as Brady's replacement. To me, that militates MORE in favor of the 'product of the system' argument.

I mean, maybe he really is a stud QB, and maybe Palmer and Leinart were Just That Much Better.

But I tend to think he finds himself in the NFL because he was coming out of USC, and I tend to think he's got a starting job because he had the Patriots' weapons around him when it came time to do something.

The Chiefs' 2-0 start doesn't appear to have hinged much on his play, but I wonder how long they can sustain a winning record with a 55.0 QB rating under center.

[molson]

I always thought that Manninig was the better QB, but he wouldn't have won with the Pats certainly in '01, and possibly until Moss showed up.

I think it's a good point that Manning IS the system in Indy - I don't think he'd thrive if you plopped him in Buffalo or Cleveland like Brady did when plopped in New England.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

He also didn't start really at all between his time at Chatsworth High and his time as Brady's replacement. To me, that militates MORE in favor of the 'product of the system' argument.

I mean, maybe he really is a stud QB, and maybe Palmer and Leinart were Just That Much Better.

But I tend to think he finds himself in the NFL because he was coming out of USC, and I tend to think he's got a starting job because he had the Patriots' weapons around him when it came time to do something.

The Chiefs' 2-0 start doesn't appear to have hinged much on his play, but I wonder how long they can sustain a winning record with a 55.0 QB rating under center.

It also could just be that the Pats are better at picking backup QBs than the Colts. There certainly seems to be a fair amount of evidence of that.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by molson

It also could just be that the Pats are better at picking backup QBs than the Colts. There certainly seems to be a fair amount of evidence of that.

Not arguing that, but I think that's really an argument alongside the one about Palmer and Leinart.

Maybe USC just had three stud QBs and New England sussed that out.

Maybe it's a development thing.

Maybe it's the New England system and weapons that allowed Cassel to succeed - which doesn't take anything away from Brady, IMO. Cassel played very well, but he wasn't setting NFL records back there the way Brady did in the 16-1 season.

Maybe it's all three. Who knows. But I'd tend to think that having two or three pretty good receivers for a young QB to throw to is a great way to mask any inadequacies he might have at the position.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Cassel played very well, but he wasn't setting NFL records back there the way Brady did in the 16-1 season.

Hey, that's 18-1, buddy.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

18-1

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by molson

Hey, that's 18-1, buddy.

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

18-1

Sorry. I was thinking of the '72 Dolphins and the number of games they played stuck in my head.

No disrespect intended.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

The idea that Manning is even possibly a product of his system is laughable. He is the system. I've never seen a QB dictate an offense to the degree he does it. He is basically a player/coach at this point.

Now, I'm not saying Brady is a system QB either. Brady seems to be the real deal to me as well, but it doesn't get any more obvious than Manning.

I think this is true of all great QB's.

Manning is the Colts system. Brady is the Pats system.

Now was he in 2001 when he started? Nope. He took over from Bledsoe and walked into the Bledsoe-system and they simplified it and over the years have built up a system around him.

The ability or inability of a backup to succeed isn't due to how much of a "system qb" the starting qb is, because if he's a franchise-QB then by definition the system will be defined to play to his strengths and help him succeed. the ability or inability of a backup qb to succeed is due to how well the backup qb meshes with the existing system.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Sorry. I was thinking of the '72 Dolphins and the number of games they played stuck in my head.

No disrespect intended.

Ha, none taken, I think that number is burned into my brain at this point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

It also could just be that the Pats are better at picking backup QBs than the Colts. There certainly seems to be a fair amount of evidence of that.

JED HOYER!!!!

WOOHOOO!!!!

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

*cough* O'Connell Guiterrez

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Let's see how they do when defenses are allowed to touch them and WRs aren't given carte blanche to run completely unencumbered everywhere on the field. They may be as good as some of the true greats, but guys like Unitas and even Montana had to play in a much tougher league to pass in where QBs were expected to run the whole show.

Montana cannot be included in this, he neither called his own plays (Walsh did 90% of that) nor did he ever play in an era where the receivers could be touched going down field. When people talk about SYSTEM quarterbacks, Montana is the top of that list. Without Walsh and the west coast offense, not to mention top 5 defenses and some of the best receivers over time, Montana is another Kenny Anderson. Good, but never great and utterly overlooked by historians.

Originally Posted by Lathum

dola- Everyone saying Brady has Moss/ Welker, etc....he hasn't won a superbowl with them. When Brady was leading them to superbowl he had no other great skill players on offense with him. That IMO puts him ahead of Peyton.

Actually that proves the game-planing and the "system" worked far better than expected back then, wouldn't you say? Whats changed from the super bowl years to now? The Defense. its gotten worse. Brady doesn't belong in the best ever crowd. Manning has done far more with weaker total support than Brady ever did.

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Any greatest QB discussion without Unitas and Graham isn't a discussion of the best of all time.

I agree to an extent, however as others have stated, how do you account for the Era in which any given player played? Unitas in today's world would get beaten to death by 60+ sacks a year unless he had a magnificent O-line. He was pretty much a statue back there. Graham while more mobile was more of a game manager type, he wasn't going to chuck it 60+ yards very often. I think in today's systems he'd be more of a Montana type.

Now try putting peyton and brady back in the 1950's or 60's? They don't suyrvive the first season. Some D-lineman would closeline them or slam them into the ground so badly AFTER a throw that they'd get their concussion limit before mid-season.

This is why its so hard to really keep a clear vision about "greatest ever" its just not something we can look back at and compare very accurately. The game is so different from the 60's to the 70's to the 90's and today.

Get them all on TODAY's field? with equal supporting casts? Peyton mops the floor with the rest. Put them in the 60's or earlier and I think graham or Unitas or some others from the old days probably shine much better.


bleh, I ramble...

[Thomkal]

Fitzpatrick taking over for Trent Edwards in Buffalo-a bit surprised it wasn't Brian Brohm getting a shot there. Don't be surprised if Buffalo trades for Miami's Tyler Thigpen if this keeps up. Chan Gailey was Offensive Coordinator when Thigpen played for KC, and had some success there.

Dennis Dixon has torn knee cartilege and could be out three weeks or more.

Matt Leinart really should have waited a couple weeks before signing with a team.

[stevew]

I wonder how long Peyton can play. He barely gets hit at all. He's gotta be good for 10 more years right?

[miami_fan]

This 18 game schedule is gonna be fun when it comes.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by stevew

I wonder how long Peyton can play. He barely gets hit at all. He's gotta be good for 10 more years right?

10 more years of padding his stats in the regular season and choking in the playoffs

[kingfc22]

Wow. Fantastic start guys. Holding on the kick return costing the Niners 40 yds. A snap 15 ft over Smith's head for a safety followed up by a 30 yd free kick....

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Montana cannot be included in this, he neither called his own plays (Walsh did 90% of that) nor did he ever play in an era where the receivers could be touched going down field. When people talk about SYSTEM quarterbacks, Montana is the top of that list. Without Walsh and the west coast offense, not to mention top 5 defenses and some of the best receivers over time, Montana is another Kenny Anderson. Good, but never great and utterly overlooked by historians.



Actually that proves the game-planing and the "system" worked far better than expected back then, wouldn't you say? Whats changed from the super bowl years to now? The Defense. its gotten worse. Brady doesn't belong in the best ever crowd. Manning has done far more with weaker total support than Brady ever did.



I agree to an extent, however as others have stated, how do you account for the Era in which any given player played? Unitas in today's world would get beaten to death by 60+ sacks a year unless he had a magnificent O-line. He was pretty much a statue back there. Graham while more mobile was more of a game manager type, he wasn't going to chuck it 60+ yards very often. I think in today's systems he'd be more of a Montana type.

Now try putting peyton and brady back in the 1950's or 60's? They don't suyrvive the first season. Some D-lineman would closeline them or slam them into the ground so badly AFTER a throw that they'd get their concussion limit before mid-season.

This is why its so hard to really keep a clear vision about "greatest ever" its just not something we can look back at and compare very accurately. The game is so different from the 60's to the 70's to the 90's and today.

Get them all on TODAY's field? with equal supporting casts? Peyton mops the floor with the rest. Put them in the 60's or earlier and I think graham or Unitas or some others from the old days probably shine much better.


bleh, I ramble...

Man RendeR....lay off the hatorade.

[Ksyrup]

Fuck. Another Bronco dead - Kenny McKinley an apparent suicide.

Denver Broncos WR Kenny McKinley found dead; suicide suspected - KDVR

[Bigsmooth]

Have the Niners thrown to a friggin receiver yet this season? I swear their offense sets football back 40 years. Hate this team. Patrick Willis is a monster though.

[Groundhog]

I actually enjoy watching this Niners team. Defensively they've been pretty solid this quarter, and offensively... well... I just kinda like watching Gore bowl people over.

[DataKing]

I'm no niners fan, but Frank Gore is fun to watch play football.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

10 more years of padding his stats in the regular season and choking in the playoffs

Yeah, he sucks.

[Vince, Pt. II]

FUCK.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by RendeR

...Montana is another Kenny Anderson...

[Vince, Pt. II]

And if you want actual criticism of your post RendeR, you go way out of your way to mention at the end of your ramble that you can't account for differences in era...even though in your first sentence you eliminate Montana from contention simply because of the era he played in. Ridiculous.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

FUCK.

UGH! Can they stop killing themselves. SHIT!!!

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

10 more years of padding his stats in the regular season and choking in the playoffs

I'm pretty sure the guy has a ring. Though it could have been a dream, although I am a Packer fan so I am not sure why I would dream about that. Maybe it was any team winning over the Bears part I was dreaming about, could be.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

And if you want actual criticism of your post RendeR, you go way out of your way to mention at the end of your ramble that you can't account for differences in era...even though in your first sentence you eliminate Montana from contention simply because of the era he played in. Ridiculous.

Reread his post, specifically what he quoted and was responding to. He wasn't discounting Montana from the all-time greats, he was discounting Montana being in the grouping with Unitas as part of an era which allowed the DB's to be more physical. Now after that he goes on to say Montana is overrated, but that appears to be a separate thought from the first sentence.

[CU Tiger]

Apparently Broncos WR and former SC Gamecock Kenny McKinley has been found dead of an apparent suicide....

[Bigsmooth]

Is that really "Blaze of Glory" I hear as they fade to commercial? Jon Bon, please.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Danny

Reread his post, specifically what he quoted and was responding to. He wasn't discounting Montana from the all-time greats, he was discounting Montana being in the grouping with Unitas as part of an era which allowed the DB's to be more physical. Now after that he goes on to say Montana is overrated, but that appears to be a separate thought from the first sentence.

Good call, I was irritated about the Niners and read too quickly. I still laugh out loud about the Montana/Kenny Anderson thing though.

[kingfc22]

Niners need a turnover.

[kingfc22]

Regardless of the outcome. This is a much better showing than last week.

I'm sure all the local idiots who call into sports radio in the Bay Area will somehow blame Alex Smith if they end up losing.

[Bigsmooth]

Patrick Willis again. What a freak.

At least the Niners have a time out left....oh wait...

[Lathum]

how do you not throw the ball at least once there?

[Bigsmooth]

Seems to me the Niners are destined to score a TD here and fail on the 2 point conversion. Would just be fitting.

Was that really the backup TE returning the kickoff? Christ.

[stevew]

They could hand off to Michael Robinson for the 2 point conversion.

[DataKing]

looks short

[DataKing]

on second thought...

[Bigsmooth]

Doesn't matter. Way to much time on the clock. Would be a miracle if Brees doesn't lead them to an easy FG.

[henry296]

Reminds me of the Santonio Holmes catch vs. Baltimore in 2008.

[kingfc22]

Put it on the board!

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Montana cannot be included in this, he neither called his own plays (Walsh did 90% of that) nor did he ever play in an era where the receivers could be touched going down field. When people talk about SYSTEM quarterbacks, Montana is the top of that list. Without Walsh and the west coast offense, not to mention top 5 defenses and some of the best receivers over time, Montana is another Kenny Anderson. Good, but never great and utterly overlooked by historians.

I said it before, prior to 1985, Joe Montana was throwing to Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon. He won two Super Bowls throwing to those guys. The featured backs were Wendell Tyler in 1984 and who knows in 1981. He did not have the stellar offensive casts in either of those years that he had later.

I'm not trying to say that Montana wasn't a system guy, but he was the best of his generation and he did not have the best WRs for the first half of his career.