Occupy Wall Street

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I disagree with that they are the lefts version of what began as the tea-party perhaps.

But the current tea-party is simply a well finances mouth-piece for politicians and corporations ..... not sure what the left equivalent for that even could be tbh.

Public perception wise they are. They have almost identical approval/disapproval in recent polls. Just like the Tea Party, disapprovals go up everyday.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I see the current system having evolved into place for a similar reason to why people smoke.

People are inherantly bad at recognising 'distant danger' - as animals we're designed for short-term danger detection and avoidance.

(there are some very interesting books on it and how the media, politicians etc. prey upon it)

As such step by step society has subtly been evolved without the masses realising there was any danger because in the short term each change wasn't something which directly affected them in the main.

We're now at the stage where its becoming more and more transparent that the tables are rigged and that society is no longer functioning to look after the people within it, just to generate profits for corporations ...

The question is how long the people within society will tolerate that and what will happen afterwards imho.

(my expectation is that if the corporations & money men have any sense at all they'll back off and stop the current 'crisis' mode within the next couple of years, if they do this then people will accept the status quo - however if they don't then people will eventually call 'enough' and changes will happen .... its like a middle-eastern dictatorship really, they're only in charge because of lethargy - if the masses are stirred up enough then change will happen)

Anyway on a slightly lighter note I came across this video of the 'lass from Fox News' doing her Thanks Giving meal with pepper spray ....

Thanks Giving using that all time favourite condiment Pepper Spray

I don't disagree with that at all. I guess what I'm saying is what is the best way to fix that. Is it camping out in a park egging on police officers? Is that going to cause a shift in how we are represented? Or does vetting and supporting some quality candidates who will do good by people offer a better solution?

I guess I think their efforts would be better put elsewhere. Try and get 5 people they truly support into Congress next election. Go for 5 more the next election. You aren't overhauling the system overnight. You have a lot of passionate people with a lot of free time. OWS hardly seems about Wall Street anymore either, it seems they are more concerned about complaining about cops all the time.

It just feels like a lot of people who would like to feel like they are making change instead of actually doing it.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's college kids sitting on a sidewalk with their arms linked. They're being arrested for something incredibly minor (you can even argue why bother arresting some kids protesting peacefully on a campus anyway?). They weren't lobbing molatov cocktails. If that is literally the best way to arrest them, then that police department is rather pathetic.

So you would prefer them to go hands-on using pain compliance techniques that could result in pinched nerves or broken bones?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's college kids sitting on a sidewalk with their arms linked. They're being arrested for something incredibly minor (you can even argue why bother arresting some kids protesting peacefully on a campus anyway?). They weren't lobbing molatov cocktails. If that is literally the best way to arrest them, then that police department is rather pathetic.

Maybe they don't want it to become this?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

So you would prefer them to go hands-on using pain compliance techniques that could result in pinched nerves or broken bones?

I would prefer them to just let the kids sit and make whatever statement they wanted to make. Didn't seem like there was some huge riot taking place. Just some college kids sitting on the ground. It's a college campus for Christ sake.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Maybe they don't want it to become this?

If they think a handful of college kids sitting on the ground on campus would turn into that, they achieve a new level of stupid.

[JPhillips]

I think jaywalkers should be tasered just in case they might murder someone after they cross the street.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think jaywalkers should be tasered just in case they might murder someone after they cross the street.

Jaywalker showing no active resistance in a non-arrest situation vs. crowd of people showing active resistance in an arrest situation. Thanks for your sincere attempt at contributing to the discussion.

[JPhillips]

Police are over reliant on tools like pepper spray and tasers. They have their place, but the widespread acceptance of their use has led to a lot of abuse.

In one analysis, criminologists found that police use of force rose by 33 percent in Concord, North Carolina following the approval of pepper spray as a law enforcement tool. After an arrestee died in custody after being sprayed, pepper spray use was restricted; use-of-force incidents then fell by 57 percent, even though arrest rates rose by almost 4 percent.

It's funny that people most worried about an oppressive government are fine with demanding the populace follow every direction of the police or face pepper spray or tasers.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Police are over reliant on tools like pepper spray and tasers. They have their place, but the widespread acceptance of their use has led to a lot of abuse.



It's funny that people most worried about an oppressive government are fine with demanding the populace follow every direction of the police or face pepper spray or tasers.

Sounds like the police investigate and curbed it's use in that one instance. Isn't that a satisfactory response? Are there cases where police abuse is not being investigated, perhaps we should start there.

[Warhammer]

If the use of excessive force can be authorized in apprehending the Blues Brothers who were on a mission from God, it can be authorized in many other situations.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Police are over reliant on tools like pepper spray and tasers. They have their place, but the widespread acceptance of their use has led to a lot of abuse.


It's funny that people most worried about an oppressive government are fine with demanding the populace follow every direction of the police or face pepper spray or tasers.

Shit I think the growth of the police state is one of the worst developments of my lifetime. DWI checkpoints with no intention of really going after DWI's, turning United States streets into London's camera on every corner, TSA nonsense, war on drugs, tasering middle school students, strip searching kids to find "evil" drugs, use of force first ask questions later... My video post to Rainmaker was tongue in cheek showing how Oakland dealt with their protesters by turning the Bay area into Beirut. Anyone who thinks that was the correct response to even a non-peaceful protest is out of their mind. I realize its hard to tell sarcasm on the internet but I figured you guys (who may not agree with me on most of my rants) know I am totally with the liberals on the out of control power we are giving to the police in the name of "security". What ever happened to "protect and serve"?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Sounds like the police investigate and curbed it's use in that one instance. Isn't that a satisfactory response? Are there cases where police abuse is not being investigated, perhaps we should start there.

I think they did the right thing, but that's only one city. The Chief in Baltimore has also been very strict about arming officers with tasers and limiting their use and it's been very successful. I'd like to see departments all across the country step back from the militarized view of policing. The serve part of protect and serve is too often overlooked.

[illinifan999]

ELLI PEARSON: Well, we were protesting together, and the riot cops came at us, and we linked arms and sat down peacefully to protest their presence on our campus. And at one point, they were—we had encircled them, and they were trying to leave, and they were trying to clear a path. And so, we sat down, linked arms, and said that if they wanted to clear the path, they would have to go through us. But we were on the ground, you know, heads down. And all I could see was people telling me to cover my head, protect myself, and put my head down. And the next thing I know, I was pepper-sprayed.

Democracy Now! Mobile

[RainMaker]

He looked surrounded and threatened.

[Flasch186]

Check out that power moustache.

[JPhillips]

I can't believe Craig Stadler would do that.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

pretty good summation of that moment in time. he's not angry. there's no sadism. he looks like he's watering the lawn.

it's very 'time to make the donuts.'

[RainMaker]

As illinifan would say though, they are actively resisting and the cop is clearly bracing for the worst.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As illinifan would say though, they are actively resisting and the cop is clearly bracing for the worst.

Whether you chose to like it or not, they are actively resisting arrest. When encountering someone actively resisting arrest, OC Spray is an appropriate response in nearly every use of force continuum I've seen.

[RainMaker]

I think that's the problem right there. It shouldn't be an appropriate response for some college kids sitting on their campus who are not a threat to public safety and not causing any major disruptions.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think that's the problem right there. It shouldn't be an appropriate response for some college kids sitting on their campus who are not a threat to public safety and not causing any major disruptions.

You keep coming back with this "college kids" thing. They are not kids. They are adults. They were warned what was going to happen if they chose to ignore the order. They made an adult decision to ignore it, and they got sprayed. They've already shown they weren't being completely peaceful by admitting that they encircled the officers in an attempt to make them force their way out.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You keep coming back with this "college kids" thing. They are not kids. They are adults. They were warned what was going to happen if they chose to ignore the order. They made an adult decision to ignore it, and they got sprayed. They've already shown they weren't being completely peaceful by admitting that they encircled the officers in an attempt to make them force their way out.

You're obviously taking this "Hey I'm a police officer and these guys are police offers. SOLIDARITY!" thing way too far.

This isn't a massive mob of angry protestors in a potentially volatile situation. They're a bunch of college students and a bunch of CAMPUS POLICE.

Not real police...fucking campus police. That's like...one step up from Rent-a-Cops.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You keep coming back with this "college kids" thing. They are not kids. They are adults. They were warned what was going to happen if they chose to ignore the order. They made an adult decision to ignore it, and they got sprayed. They've already shown they weren't being completely peaceful by admitting that they encircled the officers in an attempt to make them force their way out.

Yes, that cop looks like he was really threatened by their presence out there.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You're obviously taking this "Hey I'm a police officer and these guys are police offers. SOLIDARITY!" thing way too far.

This isn't a massive mob of angry protestors in a potentially volatile situation. They're a bunch of college students and a bunch of CAMPUS POLICE.

Not real police...fucking campus police. That's like...one step up from Rent-a-Cops.

Incorrect. UC Davis are sworn police officers. They aren't campus security, they've gone through the same training other officers across the country go through.

As far as solidarity; yeah I'll backup another officer when he's in the right, and won't when he's in the wrong. That Miami/FHP thing? Miami officer was in the wrong, and should be fired. MA State Captain that ran and resisted, fired and jailed. This? No way. I haven't read UC Davis use of force policy, but according to nearly every use of force policy I've read, they were well within policy to use OC on an actively resistant subject. You can disagree all you want, but those are the facts.

And again, OC Spray was the safest way for everyone involved. You want the officers to just walk up and start using pain compliance techniques? Then you better be prepared for pinched nerves and broken bones? Are those better than irritation from OC spray?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yes, that cop looks like he was really threatened by their presence out there.

Cops are very good at internalizing their fear. I'd be willing to bet if you had a heart rate monitor on any of those officers, you'd have a different opinion.

[lcjjdnh]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

As far as solidarity; yeah I'll backup another officer when he's in the right, and won't when he's in the wrong. That Miami/FHP thing? Miami officer was in the wrong, and should be fired. MA State Captain that ran and resisted, fired and jailed. This? No way. I haven't read UC Davis use of force policy, but according to nearly every use of force policy I've read, they were well within policy to use OC on an actively resistant subject. You can disagree all you want, but those are the facts.

I'm not sure appeal to authority is convincing here. No one is too concerned about whether the police officer followed proper protocol, but whether the protocol itself is appropriate*. In many ways, it's actually even more troubling if the work of a police policy and not a rogue police officer, because it suggests a much larger systemic problem.

* Which your final paragraph was aimed at, to be fair.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You want the officers to just walk up and start using pain compliance techniques?

In my case, I'll just assume that's a rhetorical question & say that it's safe for most folks to assume my answer

[Julio Riddols]

The whole crowd of protesters is about as like minded as the posts in this thread, which is why I have gone from being supportive of the idea to being annoyed at the utter lack of execution. Its going to end up as a black eye on the face of the issue at hand, and the Wall Street "bullies" these people are up against are just going to end up standing there asking "Why are you hitting yourself?" with a big smirk on their face.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by lcjjdnh

I'm not sure appeal to authority is convincing here. No one is too concerned about whether the police officer followed proper protocol, but whether the protocol itself is appropriate*. In many ways, it's actually even more troubling if the work of a police policy and not a rogue police officer, because it suggests a much larger systemic problem.

* Which your final paragraph was aimed at, to be fair.

This. If that's the policy, then its a really messed up policy. I think the concerns up thread about "police state" may actually be correct in that case.

[molson]

It's kind of amusing that the entire OWS movement is now centered around this single cop. I know the protesters and the usual anti-cop posters here jerk themselves off silly when we have a story like this, but its not even close to what the OWS protests are about, is it? Is this now a general anti-cop/anti-authority type protest?

If we can find a couple (or a couple thousand) examples of OWS protesters behaving badly, or OWS protesters that aren't "victims" of anything except their own laziness and incompetence, (as opposed to the 1%), or singular examples of welfare fraud, or someone blowing their government benefits on booze and drugs - does that say as much about the movement as a whole as this one cop, or however many handful of examples someone can come up with? We don't spend 3 pages talking about a single loser protester in San Francisco, but one cop makes a mistake, and shit, here comes all the police conduct experts here with 1,000 posts about how cops are supposed to act in every situation. I know an officer's conduct may be more relevant than a single loser protester's, but geez, this is ridiculous.

Edit: The more I think about it though, I think this protest, is, at its heart, really just more about anti-cop/anti-authority. I mean, what is up with the defiance of local law have to do with the 1% anyway? There are plenty of ways to protest in this country, legally, where you won't have any run-ins with cops, if that's what you want. But this is more about "let's take over city property for unclear reasons and DEFY the local authorities that try to do anything about it!". What does that have to do with the claimed messages? What does that have to do with evil corporations and evil rich people? What does the 1% have to do with unjust sanitation laws that are being fiercely rebelled against? Why not work with the local authorities to maximize your message in a way that doesn't break laws or negatively impact regular people?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

The whole crowd of protesters is about as like minded as the posts in this thread, which is why I have gone from being supportive of the idea to being annoyed at the utter lack of execution. Its going to end up as a black eye on the face of the issue at hand, and the Wall Street "bullies" these people are up against are just going to end up standing there asking "Why are you hitting yourself?" with a big smirk on their face.

It's making any concern with corporate influence on government a weird fringe issue, just like the tea party did with government spending restraint.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's funny that people most worried about an oppressive government are fine with demanding the populace follow every direction of the police or face pepper spray or tasers.

Which department's policy are you referring to? (That sprays or tasers anyone that doesn't follow every direction of the police?)

[Marc Vaughan]

Thought this might be of interest to people who don't read non-US news coverage - its from one of the UK broadsheet papers (ie. non-tabloid):

Shocking Truth about Cracking down on OWS

Some interesting stuff - including:
In New York, a state supreme court justice and a New York City council member were beaten up; in Berkeley, California, one of our greatest national poets, Robert Hass, was beaten with batons. The picture darkened still further when Wonkette and Washingtonsblog.com reported that the Mayor of Oakland acknowledged that the Department of Homeland Security had participated in an 18-city mayor conference call advising mayors on "how to suppress" Occupy protests.

To Europeans, the enormity of this breach may not be obvious at first. Our system of government prohibits the creation of a federalised police force, and forbids federal or militarised involvement in municipal peacekeeping

Oh and for comparison with the police with pepper spray at the American University - these are the equivalent cops at an English university ..
Campus Cops (Facebook)

[molson]

The 1% (whoever they are) chuckles as the battle lines have now truly been drawn: OWS is camping enthusiasts v. city governments. Every time someone gets roughed up in a scrum or pepper sprayed, the camping enthusiasts score a point. They need to score enough points to keep relevant. That's all this is now.

Why not protest legally?

Edit: I saw the San Francisco OWS actually did something coherent yesterday. They protested at a Macy's and encouraged shoppers to shop at local businesses. They're working with the local authorities (who apparently aren't the enemy yet in that version of OWS) - there are a handful of troublemakers that were stopping cable car service, but officers (to the horror of many posters here, I'm sure), were able to physically push them out of the way so cable car service could resume. But at least, they resemble something of a coherent protesting unit and not a bunch of homeless people taking over pubic property by force, with no agenda.

[Dutch]

So...what do the Occupy protesters want again, I forget.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So...what do the Occupy protesters want again, I forget.

Attention

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So...what do the Occupy protesters want again, I forget.

they're fighting for expanded city park camping rights. That's the main issue right now. Police are being a little too rough with them, but damn it, they're going to see this through to the end. Future generations will hopefully enjoy indefinite camping in city parks across America.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So...what do the Occupy protesters want again, I forget.

The same thing the tea baggers want, to draw attention to some cause. I guess they need to show up at presidential speeches with semi-automatic weapons to be legit though.

[fpres]

Originally Posted by miked

The same thing the tea baggers want, to draw attention to some cause. I guess they need to show up at presidential speeches with semi-automatic weapons to be legit though.

Give the flea baggers some more time. They may not disappoint.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by miked

The same thing the tea baggers want, to draw attention to some cause. I guess they need to show up at presidential speeches with semi-automatic weapons to be legit though.

...or the exact opposite of that...trying to get pepper-sprayed...I suppose.

So that's 2 for attention whoring...

[miked]

It's amazing, isn't it. Sit in somewhere, get pepper sprayed. Bring firearms to presidential speeches, get lauded.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Not real police...fucking campus police. That's like...one step up from Rent-a-Cops.

If you don't know what you are talking about you should use before you make a statement like this.

These un-real cops actually have more power than city cops, they can go and have jurisdiction anywhere in the state.

It was one of these fucking cops who caught the person who sexually assaulted one of my students, and has provided great training and protection since then.

Also, it was a rent-a cop who was called into a Cal computer lab when a person was seen with a gun 2 weeks ago. So while everyone was running away it was these rent a cops who were asked (by a friend of mine) to run towards the guy with a gun. man with gun was killed by the way, to the seeming apathy of the students

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by miked

It's amazing, isn't it. Sit in somewhere, get pepper sprayed. Bring firearms to presidential speeches, get lauded.

The article I posted from the Guardian newspaper alluded to several possible reasons why OWS might be cracked down upon a little more than the tea-party was ...

Of course on the other side of things there is always room for a StarWars quote for any situation:

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

[molson]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

The article I posted from the Guardian newspaper alluded to several possible reasons why OWS might be cracked down upon a little more than the tea-party was ...

Is this a parody post? Did I miss the part where the tea-partiers built permanent shanty towns in cities across the U.S?

OWS is CHOOSING to challenge city government and law enforcement. I have no idea why. It isn't necessary. It has absolutely nothing to do with their claimed message. Local government is the new enemy for some reason. Ideologically, they're becoming more similar to the tea partiers because the enemy has become government, albeit local government, which I don't even think the tea partiers really had a problem with. (I'm not even sure if OWS had even taken over any federal property - the target has been local government and their blue collar employees)

Edit: And it's not just tyrannical U.S., enlightened London, and most Canadian big cities are trying to evict too, or have already done so. Which means London has gone farther than 90% of the U.S. cities dealing with this. There's been a couple of sweeps after ignored eviction notices, but the majority of cities and police departments have ignored the smaller groups in smaller cities where the residents haven't disrupted residents and businesses.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by molson

OWS is CHOOSING to challenge city government and law enforcement.

Yeah, this is where OWS is going straight off the deep end just like the Tea Party protests eventually did.

They start out with a unifying injustice such as the top 1% winning the rigged game of economic prosperity whereas the Tea Party was essentially "stop taxing us into slavery"...but then comes the anarchists & all-purpose crazies who simply hate everything & hijack the message.

It seems to me in the case of OWS, these "hijackers" hate the 45 yr-old police officer just as much as they hate the 45 yr-old wall street exec simply because both of them wield power & authority over their lives. Almost like an immature & irrational thought process that is equally ignorant (like some Tea Party crowds are seen) of what society's (theoretical) protectors "should" be thinking. As if the 45 yr old officer should be thinking "yay, fun! lets burn down all of society & start over!". Sorry, they have a vested interest in society much more than an average 20 yr old with no kids, no job, no responsibility except for a data plan for their iPhone.

Maybe they see the police as the enforcement for the 1% in some twisted way or something but I'll tell you this much...you aren't going to get anything accomplished by challenging the very people you claim to be for.

[Ben E Lou]

Well, in the end, I suspect that the main issue here is that this type of protest, while parts of it may have been valid and even laudable, was simply too attractive to the "HATE-THE-MAN" types. Whether The Man is personified by Wall Street fatcats, cops, the head of the local Park Authority, or whatever else, it doesn't really matter. To many who have joined these protests, they're just all tools of The Man, and therefore MUST be challenged at every turn, and eventually removed from their evil positions of authority.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola...heh, I'd forgotten about this...first post in the thread, actually...

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Or am I correct my assumption to date that what they're protesting is "The Man" in general?

Yeah, it appears that this wasn't the original intent, but it sure looks like it has devolved into this now.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by molson

Is this a parody post? Did I miss the part where the tea-partiers built permanent shanty towns in cities across the U.S?

The two groups have used different approaches ...

It could also be argued that the bank crisis has already created 'shanty towns' in many US cities which might be one of the reasons why OWS is finding such traction generally? ...

Cities Deal With a Surge in Shantytowns - NYTimes.com

In order to 'protest' you have to do something which forces attention upon you ... they've chosen to do this by occupying locations, similar things have been done in many countries in the past - this approach isn't particularly anything new imho.

(I personally may be somewhat extreme in my view points - but I think the right to protest is an important one; I don't agree with any country preventing it (US, UK or otherwise) .... I do however think that there needs to be some sense, ie. minimising the impact on the local community who live there - but as I understand it most of the protestors ARE trying to be sensible in this regard and in any large group you'll get idiots, protestors or otherwise)

OWS is CHOOSING to challenge city government and law enforcement. I have no idea why. It isn't necessary. It has absolutely nothing to do with their claimed message.

I agree that some of their actions are detrimental to their cause - part of the strength for the movement is that they aren't governed and orchastrated (yet) by big-business/media ... but that is also their weakness to some extent.

The tea-party was 'co-opted' by the right wing politicians/media very quickly after it was formed - tbh I've been surprised the same hasn't occured on the left with OWS.

[JPhillips]

I'm so old I remember when any criticism of the Tea Party was a dishonest way to smear any right of center thinker.