10-26-2024, 10:09 PM | #451 | |||||
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Last I checked, family is family. Either way, I don't think it matters that much given it is essentially unlimited. I don't think we are taking any chances alienating foreign billionaires (US citizens, green card holders or just immigrants) by not allowing their adult children or siblings to stay in the country. Not sure how much more can be done to increase the skillset part. Employment based visas are supposed to be about 21% of whatever the worldwide limit is. That came out to approximately 192,000 employment based visas in FY 2023. That does not include the 10,438,327 non immigrant visas. Quote:
I suspect that you know that the U.S. would not say such a thing. Such a statement is just meant to scare people into believing the big bad caravan is coming. Stop. Quote:
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Because you have mentioned the progressive wonderland of Nordic countries I went searching to see what their policies are and why they put them in place. What seems pretty clear is the immigration policies in these countries have very little to do with an illegal immigration problem. The policies have to do with things like creating "the unwelcoming environment Denmark is deliberately creating to deter immigration, especially from cultures/societies deemed to be less compatible with Denmark’s professed liberal progressive values." and "to resist the prospect of Denmark’s traditionally homogeneous society becoming even more multicultural" which is almost solely directed to immigrants from the Middle East while all of the countries are heavily invested in bringing in Ukrainian refugees. Those quotes are from the Danes themselves and similar quotes were found from the other countries. Which of those quotes are you suggesting the US should be role modeling given our society and our values?
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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10-27-2024, 05:31 AM | #452 | ||||||||||||
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Therefore, greatly increase visa limits and the key clincher ... tell them they will get fast tracked to permanent residents & citizenship if they meet X, Y, Z criteria. Heck, toss in relocation assistance also. There will be a flood of applicants, and you want yellow and non-hispanic brown people, you'll definitely get the asian ones. Obviously, it'll peter down after the initial rush. But what a big bonus to the future of the US. We'll get so much "intellectual capital" and more population. Create a 10 year plan and execute. We'll be set for (my guess) couple generations. Page not found | IIE.
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Specifically, on the big bad caravan, many started off in caravans and then caravans petered out. But then ... they're here. There are many different charts with different criteria, but see below from Pew and you get the idea. The illegal immigration problem is real, and it became a bigger problem under Joe. Sharp fall in migrant encounters at US-Mexico border in 2024 | Pew Research Center (graphic is too large to post, see link and first graphic) Quote:
The other big part of the problem is their lack of success in integrating/assimilating these legal/illegal immigrants. I suspect a too much, too soon issue. So yes, the Nordics don't necessarily have as big of illegal immigration problem as the US, but they have a (legal) refugee migration issue that their citizens & politicians are coming to realization with. Quote:
Specifically, to your bolded question and the Denmark quotes, let me research that to get context and I'll answer in a different post. Question to you. Do you agree with Passacaglia's statement? Quote:
Last edited by Edward64 : 10-27-2024 at 07:39 AM. |
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10-27-2024, 05:47 AM | #453 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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The changing politics of immigration in Nordic countries | Mixed Migration Centre I would not say either as quoted ... but there is some degree of truth in the cultural concerns. In this recent discussion on legal & illegal immigration, we've not talked about how "excessive" immigration may adversely impact the culture of a country. I know I've mentioned it before in previous immigration discussions (have to search for "burqa") about the impact to culture. Culture seems to be a tangent from our current discussion, and I do not want to be (often falsely) accused of moving the goal post unilaterally. If you want, happy to get into the discussion in this thread with you. I do think it'll be an interesting discussion. Last edited by Edward64 : 10-27-2024 at 07:42 AM. |
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10-27-2024, 06:44 AM | #454 | ||||
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Not how I see it. There are a ton of brown Indian & yellow Chinese MDs, brown & yellow asian nurses, and I am positive there are a ton of yellow PhDs from China. This PhD thing will benefit non-whites more than whites if going by raw numbers. Admittedly, there won't be as many (yet) brown from south of the border or blacks from Africa, so it is discriminatory towards them because their education base isn't as developed as China or India. But non-white is non-white, increased diversity from China/India/Asia vs South/Africa is still good, right? As far was why it matters? It builds up our intellectual capital base. It increases the odds that US will stay in the forefront of science, technology, innovation etc. And it will relatively quickly address shortages in some industries like doctors & nurses, chip design & production (yeah, think we can't get a bunch of folks from Taiwan with a promise of US citizenship & easy relocation?) etc. We are falling behind in STEM, we struggle to organically (internally) increase this skillset, so let's "buy" it through immigration. Quote:
For other PhDs, companies (and lesser extent, higher education) will hire primarily on need & merit. e.g. AI companies are too busy to discriminate, they want the best. Just a note for the record. Although I am speaking about PhDs, doctors & nurses here, my position is preference to merit/skills/education based. So, a much broader pool of talent than just PhDs, doctors & nurses. Last edited by Edward64 : 10-27-2024 at 07:46 AM. |
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10-27-2024, 07:22 PM | #455 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Land O Lakes FL
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So you think that a U.S. public that has a huge problem with all the undocumented workers being here even while believing (75%) that the undocumented workers are mostly likely doing jobs that Americans don't want. A U.S. public in which Trump supporters(probably the most fervent opponents of undocumented workers) are more likely to believe that LEGAL immigrants are doing jobs that Americans would like to have (44%) than they think ILLEGAL immigrants are doing jobs that Americans would like to have(37%). You think those people want more highly qualified highly skilled immigrants to come here and take jobs that could be filled by native born Americans or worse yet repl---(this word is kind of sensitive in this context) native born Americans who are doing those jobs right now? You expect those people and/or the people who represent them to have that political will? Okay, then Again, that distinction you keep harping on is not really a thing here. Quote:
All the evidence suggest that the Nordics don't have a refugee problem. They have a refugees from the Middle East problem. They have no problem with taking in Ukrainian refugees. The policies are focused on keeping Middle Eastern refugees out of their countries and it is at least partly due to the homogeneous makeup of the country. They are not trying to hide that fact. Quote:
Yes! Why wouldn't I? My grandmother wanted citizenship and got it. My parents wanted citizenship and got it. Aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews? Same Wife, sister-in-law and their cousin? Yep them too. Friends and co-workers? Uh huh I have even been to a few ceremonies where a deceased veteran has received a posthumous citizenship. If someone wants US citizenship, I want them to follow the link to the 10 Steps of Naturalization on the UCIS webpage and follow all of those steps. 10 Steps to Naturalization | USCIS If they get to step now and they are close, I will come by and take the corny picture of them holding up their Certificate of Naturalization and their little U.S. flag. I have a good bit of experience doing so.
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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10-28-2024, 05:20 PM | #456 | ||||||||||||
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Therefore as President Edward, I want to have a holistic immigration reform. And my compromise (as previous documented) is to have all the non-felon illegal convert to renewable guest workers (non-voting) and increase legal immigration (voting) by giving preference to skillsets/education over, let's say, 10 years. Quote:
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See below stats from AI summary ... Quote:
In below link, there is a chart of "TOP 5 NATIONALITIES SEEKING ASYLUM IN DENMARK 2019-2023". A fair number are non-Ukrainian. How many refugees are coming to Denmark I think the Bill Maher quote applies to Denmark. I mean, if Denmark/Nordics, the paragon of progressive thinking believes they have a problem, then I guess there is a problem. And if you believe Denmark is a racist country, I don't personally believe it, but okay. So?
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But then, the link doesn't talk about how to become a PR which is what citizenship is (primarily) dependent on. If you want the 11M+ illegals to go through the current legal process, I'm good. If Kamala wins and changes the rules, I assume there'll be a fight all the way to SCOTUS, and if Kamala wins, I'm good with accepting the laws. Quote:
So, sounds like you do agree with Passacaglia's quote below. Quote:
If so, I'll ask again,
Last edited by Edward64 : 10-28-2024 at 05:26 PM. |
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10-28-2024, 10:39 PM | #457 | ||||||||||
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Cool answer but I thought we were speaking specifically about increasing legal employment visas. Not sure why you would want to poison that discussion with a call back to the pathway to citizenship for the 11m etc. I will ask the question a different way but first let me post where I got my info from. Trump, Harris voters mostly say immigrants fill jobs US citizens don’t want | Pew Research Center You are in luck, we are starting to get more data where there is distinction between legal and illegal immigration so I will include that as well. Where Trump and Harris Supporters Differ and Align on Immigration | Pew Research Center Specifically on legal employment immigration. Good news for your argument. Quote:
Should be a simple increase right? no need for any compromise. No need for a holistic reform though that would be preferred. This is something both sides want especially since it appears that the folks presumably on the left want it more than those on the right. Well... Quote:
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To be clear, Harris supporters give more support to undocumented immigrants that Trump supporters but we knew that already. No one is shocked by that. However, unless I missed one, every question that was more supportive of legal immigration had more from people who identified as Harris supporters than those who identified as Trump supporters and in certain cases it's not really close. So once again I ask, who does not have the political will to increase employment visas? Who is less likely to support increasing employment visas? Quote:
I'll let the survey speak for itself. I will say that if it does, it is clear that Harris supporters are more likely to be more supportive of such measures. Quote:
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When they make laws restricting what all of the refugees wear, then they will have an issue with more than just Middle Eastern refugees. If I wanted to call Denmark racist, I would have done so if I thought that was the case. I did not see anything that specifically said led me to that conclusion but again I did not go that deep. I am not saying that Denmark would prefer Ukrainian vs Middle Eastern refugees. Denmark, through its words and policies, has said that they prefer Ukrainian refugees to their Middle Eastern counterparts. Quote:
I just checked to make sure. Passacaglia did not say anything about opening up U.S. immigration laws. I did not say anything about opening up U.S. immigration laws. I also don't know where you come up with the idea that everyone wanting to come to the US will want citizenship. We have people currently leaving in the US who have no desire to become citizens and have made the call to live and die here without ever being citizens and I don't have an issue with that either. About 48% of all immigrants in the US currently are not citizens and only a third of them are eligible for naturalization. Even the mention of everyone wanting dual citizenship is strange to me. Honestly, I have never heard anyone being concerned about every one immigrating to the US trying to hold dual citizenship. You know who is trying to get dual citizenship in droves? Native born Americans are trying to add citizenship of other countries to the US citizenship! Americans Are Pursuing Dual Citizenship Now More Than Ever Before - Arton Capital So for the last time, if someone wants to obtain US citizenship and is willing to go through the process, yes I support them becoming citizens. If they want to become a permanent resident and go through the process, I support them becoming a permanent residents. If they want to just live here without becoming a citizen and/or only stay temporarily before going back to their home country, I support them. If they risked their life to help us fight during a war and are now a marked man woman or child in their home country and they want to come to the US, I support them and their families coming to US and immediately getting US citizenship if that will help protect them and their families' lives. I am sure there are more scenarios that I can't think of right now. Let me put it another way. If the US could hold its nose and provide former Nazi leaders, scientists and engineers a pathway to permanent residency and US citizenship in the 1940s and 50s, I can hold my nose to provide for the 11m+ undocumented workers to have a pathway to citizenship for making sure I can get fresh fruits and vegetables at my local Publix every week. Check back with me when we reach 100 million new citizens a year, I might change my mind then.
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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10-29-2024, 06:47 AM | #458 | |||||||
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However, in a prior passage, I said below in reference to illegal immigration ... Quote:
So no, not "poison the discussion", just continuing it. Quote:
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But to your question on specifically increasing employment visas .... good question, let me know when the Dems produce an immigration bill with that only one proposal on increasing employment visas? You won't find it. And we know why. Politics is much more complicated than that. With broader immigration reform or even one that is primarily focused on border security, there are many other points/proposals to consider which results in needed negotiations and ultimately, compromise. And just to head it off ... sure the Dems led the charge on a border bill for the Ukraine bill last year and this year, and the GOP killed it. But then, The GOP proposed their version of the border bill back in summer of 2022 and the Dems Senate killed it. So yeah, both sides. Quote:
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Demark has accepted a lot of Ukrainian & ME refugees (see my prior post). But so I am clear, you are saying Denmark is not racist (e.g. my definition includes believing one is born inherently superior). But you are saying Denmark has now become prejudicial/bigoted against ME refugees. Fine, I can agree with that. But so what? If Denmark was racist, the world/we can find common ground and condemn Denmark. But if Denmark is not racist, then name me one country that is not prejudicial/bigoted against one group of people or another re: immigration? Or in other words ... it is normal. What is your point of bringing it up (e.g. the 2 negative anti-refugee statements from Danish politics)? Last edited by Edward64 : 10-29-2024 at 07:48 AM. |
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10-29-2024, 07:35 AM | #459 | ||||||||||||||
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Here's my rationale ... 1) Currently, the US does NOT support citizenship for whoever wants it (legal or illegal)Question - if 1-2 is true, but you say 3 is not true, then how else would giving "citizenship for whoever wants it" happen? Quote:
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Although, there are no specific polls that I could find, just indicative data points Quote:
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So yeah, there are many impediments to citizenship (5 years in the US, backlogs, maybe lose home passport because no dual citizenship, lack of language skills etc.) but make it more easy for them, IMO even more permanent residents will want convert to citizens. Quote:
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To be clear, you are saying you would let anyone come to the US, stay, work etc? Or are you saying only those that go through the legal process of getting a work visa? Because if its the former, then you are definitely "opening up US immigration laws". Quote:
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Last edited by Edward64 : 10-29-2024 at 08:26 AM. |
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Yesterday, 10:35 PM | #460 | ||||||||||||||
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Well I am discussing political will in regards to legal immigration. I will leave the illegal immigration discussion for anyone else. Quote:
You are correct. Nothing that just involves employment based visas but... What Happened To The Bills On Employment-Based Immigration? Introduction Quote:
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...the leftist mouthpiece that is Forbes Magazine, seems to think that there was a chance to improve legal employment based immigration and well I will let the last paragraph speak for itself. Quote:
You want us to go back to doing stuff like this?! The U.S. Government Turned Away Thousands of Jewish Refugees, Fearing That They Were Nazi Spies | Smithsonian Quote:
The statements provided a line of reasoning for what the Danes have chosen to do for their country that was based on their more homogeneous population and their values. I don't believe those lines of reasoning fit with our more diverse population and our values. Because I don't think they fit with our more diverse population and our values, I don't think the U.S. should be role modeling these policies or use these countries as a example for us to do the same here. Quote:
Can you please explain what you mean when you say "the US does not support citizenship?" Maybe that is what is not clear. Do you mean if I support the government handing out certificates of naturalization as people cross the border or move through customs and not after going through the steps of naturalization? If that is what you are talking about, then no I don't support that. But I am not making it impossible for someone to go through those steps just because. And neither does the US government. Quote:
And yet the number is the number. But let's say that is the case. Why are you suggesting that we need to stop allowing people to become U.S. citizens in FY 26, FY36 etc. That is the American dream. Quote:
Those are not impediments, those are requirements. The requirements for citizenship. If a person is a LPR, wants to become a citizen, and fulfills the requirements just like EVERYONE ELSE has for x number of years, no one should be putting another layer of requirements or putting any more barriers in place to prevent that. We've done that shameful BS already. Quote:
I am only talking about the legal process. I will only ever talk about the legal process. I am saying that I will let ANYONE that goes through the legal process in place to immigrate to the US. I also believe that if we actually opened up the immigration laws(not open borders) to make the immigration process less nonsensical, we as a country would be better off. Quote:
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I have already spoken on the 11M+ that are here but I can do it again. Actually I will engage in some bipartisanship myself and let someone I don't usually see eye to eye with make the case. - YouTube The 158M+ that want to immigrate would be handled just like everyone. If we maintain the pace of calendar year 2023 of 1.6 million legal immigrants, it will be another 98.75 years before they all get here.
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"The blind soldier fought for me in this war. The least I can do now is fight for him. I have eyes. He hasn’t. I have a voice on the radio, he hasn’t. I was born a white man. And until a colored man is a full citizen, like me, I haven’t the leisure to enjoy the freedom that colored man risked his life to maintain for me. I don’t own what I have until he owns an equal share of it. Until somebody beats me and blinds me, I am in his debt."- Orson Welles August 11, 1946 |
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Today, 05:56 AM | #461 | ||||||||||||||||
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But for the record because there are some that think I change the goalposts, your posts in this recent discussion starting a page back reflect we were talking about legal & illegal immigration. Quote:
The very first line in congressional summary of HR 1177. Quote:
I have stated previously ...
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But if hypothetically, 11M+ wanted to come over. Or 158M+, yes I would certainly create quotas with whatever categories, and control the immigration. Quote:
The Nordic countries have been upheld as the paragon of progressiveness. If they have come to this point where there are real right-wing pressure on immigration, IMO it tells you that unbridled immigration is not the answer. And that it's not just "racist" Americans. You imply "culture & values" come into play (along with economics etc.), and I agree with you. I think it's normal for countries to assess all the pros & cons, assess what is best for the country, be selective (and prejudicial) and control legal & illegal immigration. Quote:
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You support a person to be able to apply, and if eligible, get permanent residency? And then support that person to become naturalized through the legal process? If this is true, then we have no disagreement with key words being "eligible" and "legal". Legal process also implies the country quotas are accepted. There is already a legal process for all non-felon illegals to go through. Essentially, leave the US and if eligible, apply to become a PR (and then eventually Citizenship). It's not impossible. But, I suspect you want some thing "more" for the 11M+ illegals, not just the current legal process. Question - no need to answer as it is tangential and just a thought exercise ... but I would be interested in knowing how President miami_fan would go about implementing the below? Assume you own Congress for the next 2 years, what policies would you change, what would you implement?
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(You have some ME countries increasing workers but they don't have voting rights, so not same thing) I fully embrace the American dream for immigrants becoming citizens legally. But I certainly don't want to break the country and American dream for current PR/citizens. Hence, we need controlled (and selective) immigration which 158M+ in 10 years is not. Quote:
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We've been talking about legal & illegal immigration. If you are stating that illegal immigration should follow the legal process, then we have no disagreement. And going forward, will accept we are only talking about legal immigration. Note that the current legal process does not provide for a way for illegals to become PR/citizenships (other than arguably a few examples like DACA, birthright citizenship) while still in US. They have to leave the country, apply and if eligible, get accepted as PR and then naturalized years later. I'm okay with that. Quote:
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Last edited by Edward64 : Today at 06:10 AM. |
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