FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BillyMadison

"I'm only going off what was gathered so far from social media so it's a guess, but any lawyer worth their salt would be able to bend him over the table and make him cry mommy with what's currently available. The FBI will dig up more and it's probably not going to be in his favor especially if there is any group chats with other militia members. Never said it was right/wrong. I stated what the law says about self-defense. You can't claim self-defense when you say you are intentionally going into a hostile situation with a gun. The law is phased that way to prevent a shooter from goading people into attacking them so they can shoot them and claim self-defense."

So yea. The self-defense defense is complete bullshit because he acknowledges he's putting himself in harms way in that interview. At least according to this lawyer...

Thanks for the info. I googled more on "Kyle Rittenhouse self defense" and got a bunch of articles about the validity of the claim, all of them seemingly very partisan one way or another and none from a major MSM.

I do think it hinges on what happened before he fell to the ground and shot up people that "jumped on him".

I know this may lead to a bunch of whataboutism but my whataboutism re: what the lawyer said he can't claim self-defense because he put himself in harms way - what about if someone went into harm's way to pick up family members caught in the "protest mess" and he was jumped on? That would seem to be a justifiable self-defense under that situation (first incident at car lot notwithstanding).

Again, not saying right or wrong, self-defense or not in this particular situation because I don't think the full story, sequence of events is out yet.

[spleen1015]

This kid deserves everything he gets and then some.

A 17 year old has no business taking a gun and inserting himself in this situation. The owner of the gun deserves prosecution too if it is found out that they are negligent when it comes to storing the gun.

This situation with this kid is fucking nuts man. There is something terribly wrong going on that led to this situation.

So much fucked up shit in the world right now.

[BillyMadison]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Thanks for the info. I googled more on "Kyle Rittenhouse self defense" and got a bunch of articles about the validity of the claim, all of them seemingly very partisan one way or another and none from a major MSM.

That's why it was nice to hear from this reddit user (/u/Andrew_Waltfeld btw so you can read his many good lawyerly takes on this) who clearly has a grasp on what the law says and is not led by passion or emotion one way or the other. Sure, people may WANT or THINK that this constitutes or should constitute as self-defense, but it doesn't matter. So many armchair lawyers all of a sudden. What matters is what the LAW says. And whether it's the weapons chargers, or the crossing state lines, or the shooting 3 people and killing 2. It doesn't look good for this kid.

I do think it hinges on what happened before he fell to the ground and shot up people that "jumped on him".

But there we go. It doesn't apparently. What matters is his intent ahead of time. What matters is the intent of the militia that he joined ahead of time (which likely said inflammatory things). He admitted he was "putting himself in harms way" way before the shooting happens. And you lose the right to a self-defense claim when you do so.

I know this may lead to a bunch of whataboutism but my whataboutism re: what the lawyer said he can't claim self-defense because he put himself in harms way - what about if someone went into harm's way to pick up family members caught in the "protest mess" and he was jumped on? That would seem to be a justifiable self-defense under that situation (first incident at car lot notwithstanding).

No indication that's the case here. And I don't want to descend into armchair lawyer or have this devolve into a bunch of unlawerly conjecture. But I imagine it matters the intent of the the family member who is in harms way, what "harm" their family member is in and a whole lot of other factors. Also, people don't just "get jumped on" for nothing. The kid shot someone, justifiably or not, and got "jumped on" because the second group presumably thought he was an active threat. They were the ones "self-defending" according to this lawyer at least.

Again, not saying right or wrong, self-defense or not in this particular situation because I don't think the full story, sequence of events is out yet.

Enough is known from that video about the kids intent to point to: this kid is fucked according to the law on multiple fronts.

[BillyMadison]

On another subject, fuck Facebook.

Facebook chose not to act on militia complaints before Kenosha shooting - The Verge

[Ksyrup]

So this thread tries to piece together what happened with the shooter through various video/streams. It appears he was being chased, someone fired a shot behind him (into the air), he turned toward the sound and shot the person chasing/grabbing at him (who did not fire the shot he heard). Whoever fired the first shot fires 3 more shots.

Rittenhouse makes a call and flees, which is where the second incident occurs - he's being chased again, trips, shoots at the 3 people chasing him. Attempts to surrounder as he leaves, cops go right past him.

A teenager faces charges in shootings that left 2 people dead in Kenosha, WI. The @nytimes Visual Investigations team reviewed hours of livestreams to track 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse’s movements during and leading up to the shootings. [thread] https://t.co/FRCYlS5wgH

— Christiaan Triebert (@trbrtc) August 27, 2020

[Lathum]

Kids going to get off

[CrimsonFox]

his mom drove him and his gunfriend to kenosha. how cute

[BillyMadison]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Kids going to get off

What is the basis for your statement?

[cuervo72]

I do love the one argument that it's ok that he shot the one guy, because that guy had a gun.

Guess all the "militia" are fair game, then?

[albionmoonlight]

Our self-defense laws are so fucked up right now that two guys can each go to a protest open carrying, each start shooting at the other, and each claim self-defense because he legitimately felt threatened.

Somewhere on the increasingly large list of reforms that we need is self-defense law reform.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Our self-defense laws are so fucked up right now that two guys can each go to a protest open carrying, each start shooting at the other, and each claim self-defense because he legitimately felt threatened.

Someone on the increasingly large list of reforms that we need is self-defense law reform.

It's how they want it isn't it? If you're carrying a gun, you're theoretically prepared to use it, but you're also assuming the responsibility that you're ready to die, and that you must be held accountable for other non-weapon carrying people you might kill along the way. Basically whipping your dick out and daring other people that theirs is NOT bigger than YOURS. They openly say "I dare you to try, I have a gun, and I will use it."

I do not feel comfortable in public with people who have that attitude. My life is more in danger as a result. I don't know them, but I'm supposed to trust that they are better and responsible then some other average fuck with a gun.

[Edward64]

From the NYT article above.

Crazy stuff.

First shooting

About 15 minutes before the first shooting, police officers drive past Mr. Rittenhouse, and the other armed civilians who claim to be protecting the dealership, and offer water out of appreciation.

Mr. Rittenhouse walks up to a police vehicle carrying his rifle and talks with the officers.

He eventually leaves the dealership and is barred by the police from returning. Six minutes later footage shows Mr. Rittenhouse being chased by an unknown group of people into the parking lot of another dealership several blocks away.

While Mr. Rittenhouse is being pursued by the group, an unknown gunman fires into the air, though it’s unclear why. The weapon’s muzzle flash appears in footage filmed at the scene.

Mr. Rittenhouse turns toward the sound of gunfire as another pursuer lunges toward him from the same direction. Mr. Rittenhouse then fires four times, and appears to shoot the man in the head.

So no indication (yet) that he initiated some shooting at the car lot.

Second shooting

Mr. Rittenhouse seems to make a phone call and then flees the scene. Several people chase him, some shouting, “That’s the shooter!”

As Mr. Rittenhouse is running, he trips and falls to the ground. He fires four shots as three people rush toward him. One person appears to be hit in the chest and falls to the ground. Another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm and runs away.

Mr. Rittenhouse’s gunfire is mixed in with the sound of at least 16 other gunshots that ring out during this time.

WTF, why was there 16 other gunshots.

[PilotMan]

You know damn well why. Cause everyone thinks they are playing The Division in real life.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillyMadison

What is the basis for your statement?

I think he will have the best attorneys paid for him and they will use the fact that someone fired a gunshot behind him to initiate the self defense claim. This is the world we live in. Poor pudgy teen just trying to do his civic duty gets chased by angry negro mob, what is the poor kid supposed to do? People like this get off, black men go to jail for life because they posses a few grams of pot. Then society blames all the problems with the blacks on fatherless kids. Hell, they may even use the Affluenza defense.

[CrimsonFox]

lathum, got any words of wisdom? ....could use some right now

[stevew]

would it be possible for the feds to press charges, the kid to plead out and then trump to pardon him? I'm assuming this is the most likely shitty outcome.

[CrimsonFox]

I think he'll be the latest RNC speaker

[RainMaker]

I'm not sure how it would turn out in court. But agree with Lathum that he'll have a legal fund as large as he needs from white supremacists and the best attorneys money can buy. Arguing semantics of self-defense laws and such seems silly when they are not equally applied.

Normally they'd hammer him with winnable gun charges to make sure he sees some time behind bars in case they lose the murder case. But again, probably a reason he hasn't been hit with those yet too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

would it be possible for the feds to press charges, the kid to plead out and then trump to pardon him? I'm assuming this is the most likely shitty outcome.

Yes, he did cross state lines. Barr made a stink about that too in a press conference. But I don't think it applied to white people who support Trump so who knows.

[thesloppy]

Interesting how the 'good guys with guns' narrative completely disappears when it's a right-wing murderer that is the suspect. The folks who tried to apprehend this kid after he shot someone in the head certainly aren't being held up as heroes in those corners (and to be clear, I don't support anyone in this situation, I just think that's a fake narrative)

[Lathum]

Have we heard if he is being tried as an adult? I could see him getting charged with lesser offenses as a minor, maybe serve a little time but those records are sealed and he moves on with his life.

[thesloppy]

I did read an article yesterday that suggested he would be tried as an adult, for what little that is worth.

[RainMaker]

For those who still don't see a problem, the head of the largest police union in New York is speaking in support of a white supremacist tonight at the RNC.

I should add that police unions should never endorse a candidate. A really bad look.

[Lathum]

Pretty much every baseball team that didn't cancel last night is sitting out tonight. A bunch of teams playing double headers. Will be interesting to see if they don't play game 2.

[JPhillips]

I'm starting to get very old man, but I believe there was a time when the police would have been wise enough to tell the 17 year old with a rifle to go home and be safe. They bear some responsibility by encouraging him to stay on guard. I know they've all heard how a kid that age hasn't fully developed the parts of the brain needed for good judgement. Thanks for your support, but you need to go home might have saved a few lives.

[CrimsonFox]

one unexpected side effect of this story is that I think of That 70s Show every time I see the town Kenosha mentioned. Then that takes me down the slippery slope of what the reactions of Foreman, Hyde, Kelso, and Fez would be...I mean other than getting stoned in "the circle". Fez would definitely have to be hidden... Hyde would join in the protests while Eric would be grounded and not allowed to go out. Kelso would just hit stuff with other stuff.

[RainMaker]

Blue Lives Matter Supporters Say Kyle Rittenhouse Not Reflective Of Most Peaceful Apologists For Police State https://t.co/0Ot2862neU pic.twitter.com/iIQAFLArmM

— The Onion (@TheOnion) August 27, 2020

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm starting to get very old man, but I believe there was a time when the police would have been wise enough to tell the 17 year old with a rifle to go home and be safe. They bear some responsibility by encouraging him to stay on guard. I know they've all heard how a kid that age hasn't fully developed the parts of the brain needed for good judgement. Thanks for your support, but you need to go home might have saved a few lives.

Instead, it appears they did the exact opposite:

Originally Posted by BillyMadison

And now here's a video of a vigilante explaining that Kenosha Police Officers told them they'll "push them towards you" so "then you can get them"....

Police told armed militia 'Were gonna push them down by you because you can deal with them' - YouTube

SI

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm starting to get very old man, but I believe there was a time when the police would have been wise enough to tell the 17 year old with a rifle to go home and be safe. They bear some responsibility by encouraging him to stay on guard. I know they've all heard how a kid that age hasn't fully developed the parts of the brain needed for good judgement. Thanks for your support, but you need to go home might have saved a few lives.

Honestly, police inaction is at the root of the initial incident too - I watched the video and couldn’t believe they didn’t just take Blake to the ground when he started moving away. There were 4, 5 of them - why didn’t they just stop him from moving?

[JPhillips]

An honest question to those in law enforcement. How much training is there in group physical response to suspects? It always seems like there's one cop in a physical confrontation while the others stand by until the suspect is on the ground. I'm more than willing to accept that I'm only seeing a very small percentage of confrontations, but I do wonder if there's training for officers to work together in restraining suspects.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

An honest question to those in law enforcement. How much training is there in group physical response to suspects? It always seems like there's one cop in a physical confrontation while the others stand by until the suspect is on the ground. I'm more than willing to accept that I'm only seeing a very small percentage of confrontations, but I do wonder if there's training for officers to work together in restraining suspects.

Even not being a LEO I can answer that for my son and the officers I train BJJ with. Very little, talking 2-4 hours a year!

The Gracie's have a program with the LVPD that addresses restraint, grappling awareness and ground control and something like that would be beneficial across the country, at least for urban forces. Quite honestly the lack of effective combative training is why so much of this shit with restraint goes south.

The training many of these departments get is the so called 'warrior' training, which is much closer to Krav Maga, where the intent is to fuck someone up and not effective restrain them in a safe manner. This is the reason so many officers train BJJ on their own time/dime, because they know they are lacking. I have rolled with a newer students who were Leo's a couple of times in the past and I finish wondering, how the hell would you survive in a hand to hand situation on the street. The answer is they wouldn't and this is why people get shot when escalation to deadly force could be avoided if they had adequate training.

In a group situation there is even less of an excuse for some of this shit if training was at the level needed. My two cents and reflective only of the departments/LEOs I know.

[BillyMadison]

Kid has been formally charged. And it is a slew of charges. I'm sure the authorities have more information than all the internet armchair lawyers from both sides too.

The charges by Kenosha County prosecutors come the day after Rittenhouse was arrested. The 17-year-old from Antioch is charged with: first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide, two counts of first-degree recklessly endangering safety, attempted first-degree intentional homicide and possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18.

Kyle Rittenhouse charged with first-degree intentional homicide in Kenosha shootings that killed 2 - Chicago Tribune

[CrimsonFox]

can you claim self defense if you are pointing a gun at people and they attack you to get the gun away from you? asking for a friend

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Even not being a LEO I can answer that for my son and the officers I train BJJ with. Very little, talking 2-4 hours a year!

The Gracie's have a program with the LVPD that addresses restraint, grappling awareness and ground control and something like that would be beneficial across the country, at least for urban forces. Quite honestly the lack of effective combative training is why so much of this shit with restraint goes south.

The training many of these departments get is the so called 'warrior' training, which is much closer to Krav Maga, where the intent is to fuck someone up and not effective restrain them in a safe manner. This is the reason so many officers train BJJ on their own time/dime, because they know they are lacking. I have rolled with a newer students who were Leo's a couple of times in the past and I finish wondering, how the hell would you survive in a hand to hand situation on the street. The answer is they wouldn't and this is why people get shot when escalation to deadly force could be avoided if they had adequate training.

In a group situation there is even less of an excuse for some of this shit if training was at the level needed. My two cents and reflective only of the departments/LEOs I know.

Thanks for the info. I look at the Kenosha video and wonder why were there so many cops, but only one guy tugging on the suspect's shirt? He was unarmed and outnumbered and yet the cops had no control of his movement. I don't know enough about combat techniques, but from a layman's perspective it looks obvious that they should have been able to work together to limit or stop movement.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

can you claim self defense if you are pointing a gun at people and they attack you to get the gun away from you? asking for a friend

In the wildly liberal state of Utah, the answer is no.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-who...-with-assault/

[CrimsonFox]

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298496272500916225

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Even not being a LEO I can answer that for my son and the officers I train BJJ with. Very little, talking 2-4 hours a year!

The Gracie's have a program with the LVPD that addresses restraint, grappling awareness and ground control and something like that would be beneficial across the country, at least for urban forces. Quite honestly the lack of effective combative training is why so much of this shit with restraint goes south.

The training many of these departments get is the so called 'warrior' training, which is much closer to Krav Maga, where the intent is to fuck someone up and not effective restrain them in a safe manner. This is the reason so many officers train BJJ on their own time/dime, because they know they are lacking. I have rolled with a newer students who were Leo's a couple of times in the past and I finish wondering, how the hell would you survive in a hand to hand situation on the street. The answer is they wouldn't and this is why people get shot when escalation to deadly force could be avoided if they had adequate training.

In a group situation there is even less of an excuse for some of this shit if training was at the level needed. My two cents and reflective only of the departments/LEOs I know.

I'm all for more training but I still don't think this solves much. I'm sure there are situations where being trained in hand to hand combat is helpful.

But I still think this is a systemic issue. It's how police are trained and how they view the public. I've lived and spent time in a number of countries when I was younger. The United States is the only one where I felt the police viewed me as the enemy. Maybe this is a training thing that teaches them that everyone is a threat, or maybe it's a culture inside that breeds it. But police in other countries were much nicer, less confrontational, and I never saw a Punisher sticker on their gear.

I don't even know how you fix it. The "blue line" stuff where they cover each others crimes is so embedded in that culture. Police departments in major cities have way too many ties to white supremacist groups. And the "we're at war" mentality is glorified to a ridiculous extent.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298496272500916225

I was wondering what the proper approach is to an active shooter. I've read that if you're close, you should rush and throw things at them. It's yours and others best shot at survival.

Is there a guide out there that tells people what to do? I thought schools were teaching this stuff in some areas. The group was young enough that maybe some people remembered it from their time in school.

[CrimsonFox]

[Edward64]

More info. This is the most detailed account that I've read so far.

Attention Required! | Cloudflare

According to a criminal complaint, obtained by The Daily Beast, Rittenhouse was walking down the road alongside a reporter at about 11:45 p.m. when a protester, Joseph Rosenbaum, approached and tried to “engage” the armed teen. Rittenhouse did a “juke” move and started running away, the reporter—identified as Richard McGinnis but apparently a reference to Daily Caller reporter Richie McGinniss—told investigators.

As Rittenhouse ran across a parking lot, Rosenbaum followed him and threw an object, according to videos reviewed by investigators. “The object does not hit [Rittenhouse] and a second video shows, based on where the object landed, that it was a plastic bag,” the complaint says. “Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed for the duration of this video.”

Moments later, videos captured a loud bang and a male shouting, “Fuck you!” Another four shots were heard and Rosenbaum was seen falling to the ground.

Don't know what "engage" means here but assume it was somewhat/hostile and if the 4 additional shots were from the kid. I'd like to know how many bullets were left in his weapon (if full mag if would have been 30 bullets).

McGinniss told investigators that he didn’t hear the pair exchange any words but he believed Rosenbaum, who was unarmed, was trying to grab Rittenhouse’s gun when he was shot. Rosenbaum died from multiple gunshots that hit his right groin, left hand, left thigh, and back, perforating his right lung and liver, according to the Milwaukee Medical Examiner’s Office.

Yeah, trying to grab my gun (especially if I wasn't a shooter at that time) may get you shot. I can see the jury being struggling if this was justified or not.

As Rittenhouse ran away, he made a phone call and could be heard saying, “I just killed somebody,” the complaint says. Detectives later spoke to Dominic Black, a friend of Rittenhouse, who confirmed he was on the other end of the call.

Not sure relevant to story but interesting to hear tone if he was jubilant or scared.

Several protesters chased after Rittenhouse as he ran away, shouting things like “Beat him up!,” “Hey, he shot him!” and “Get him! Get that dude!” One man swung at Rittenhouse, knocking his hat off. Another could be heard yelling, “Get his ass!”

Rittenhouse then tripped over and, in scenes that were filmed and subsequently shared widely on social media, several people tried to grab his gun as he lay on the ground. Rittenhouse’s second alleged victim, Anthony Huber, was shot once as he tried to grab Rittenhouse’s gun with one hand and swing a skateboard at the teen with his other, the complaint says.

The shot pierced his chest, perforating his heart, aorta, pulmonary artery, and right lung, according to Milwaukee Medical Examiner’s Office.

A third person, Gaige Grosskreutz, was then shot in the arm as he tried to approach Rittenhouse. He appeared to be holding a handgun when he was shot, the complaint says. Grosskreutz was taken to the hospital for treatment.

This is the second shooting incident. I can see where people think because he shot the first person Rosenbaum already and they were trying to do good. And I can see why the kid shot at Huber who tried to grab his gun swinging a skateboard. The Grosskreutz is debatable if the kid saw Grosskreutz with a gun (was he pointing at the kid, did the kid see that etc.).

Still a jumbled mess. Based on this article, I can see the jury struggling to convict on first-degree (doesn't that mean premeditation?).

[RainMaker]

Cop in Washington state is very patient with a suspect of Caucasian persuasion pic.twitter.com/u8ZEcSaSJy

— Fifty Shades of Whey (@davenewworld_2) August 28, 2020

[Edward64]

Apparently the first victim had confronted some of the "militia" just before the car lot incident.

Man shot dead during BLM protests is seen on video taunting armed men and saying 'Shoot me, n*****' | Daily Mail Online

One of the two protesters fatally shot in Kenosha, Wisconsin, on Tuesday night by a 17-year-old vigilante gunman from Illinois was filmed taunting a group of armed individuals moments before he was killed.

‘Shoot me, n*****,’ 36-year-old Kenosha resident Joseph Rosenbaum is heard saying in the video in which he is seen confronting several armed men during the unrest that followed last Sunday's police shooting of 29-year-old black man Jacob Blake.

One of the armed men wearing a black baseball cap and what appears to be tactical gear on his body then turns around and takes a few steps toward Rosenbaum. He then walks past Rosenbaum without incident.

[thesloppy]

That Rosenbaum dude does seem like a real piece of work, who was out there picking fights. That's of course still no excuse for vigilanteism, but just to say that this shit is messy as hell and the confusion is probably only going to get worse rather than better, for some time.

By all reports I've read up 'til now the kid seemed like he had good intentions and was there doing what he thought was helping. With some conjecture it also seems that he also idolized police, had some training, and may have also been involved with local militias, and once that protest turned into conflict his idea of helping may have shifted from offering medical assistance and cleaning to arming himself & engaging with conflict. Rosenbaum does not seem to be there with good intentions, and seems intent on starting conflict with armed people in particular, but he isn't armed himself. A great American recipe for disaster.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

That Rosenbaum dude does seem like a real piece of work, who was out there picking fights. That's of course still no excuse for vigilanteism, but just to say that this shit is messy as hell and the confusion is probably only going to get worse rather than better, for some time.

By all reports I've read up 'til now the kid seemed like he had good intentions and was there doing what he thought was helping. With some conjecture it also seems that he also idolized police, had some training, and may have also been involved with local militias, and once that protest turned into conflict his idea of helping may have shifted from offering medical assistance and cleaning to arming himself & engaging with conflict. Rosenbaum does not seem to be there with good intentions, and seems intent on starting conflict with armed people in particular, but he isn't armed himself. A great American recipe for disaster.

If the article is accurate, it would seem likely Rosanbaum was the aggressor towards the kid in the lot which made the kid run and Rosanbaum chased him and threw a plastic bag (which I don't get, you can't throw an empty plastic bag, what was in it?).

This is going to be an interesting 2A fight in the court systems.

Pictures and videos of the kid does seem to indicate he had good intentions. But still a dumbass for being underaged and carrying into a tense situation. If anything, carry to show you support the 2A but don't carry live ammo.

[Ksyrup]

Just based on what I've read, I can see a pretty decent self defense case. Yes, the dude put himself in harm's way but doesn't appear to be threatening or instigating anything, and the first dude he shot came at him, threw something, and at the same time someone else fired a shot into the air, which Rittenhouse could easily claim he thought was from the guy chasing him or directed at him.

[PilotMan]

Shit like this is exactly why there's no point to even bother trying to figure out how it happened. I'm no armchair lawyer. Nothing I think, say, or do will have any impact on any of this today, tomorrow or the next day. There are plenty of people out in the world who will gladly worry about this and dissect it.

I do know that if people didn't feel emboldened by the power that guns give them, that there would be different things happening now than what there are. And the chances are pretty damn good that this kid wouldn't have killed two people, and many, many other people wouldn't have been shot in the US this year.

[RainMaker]

Wisconsin Man Who Says He Marched With Rittenhouse in Kenosha Was Immersed in White Supremacist Propaganda | Southern Poverty Law Center

[Atocep]

The complete story of the events I've seen so far with multiple people in the area that night describing how the militias, the police, and Rittenhouse were acting in the hours leading up to the shooting.

Witnesses detail Kenosha shooting, seeing Kyle Rittenhouse at protest

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Just based on what I've read, I can see a pretty decent self defense case. Yes, the dude put himself in harm's way but doesn't appear to be threatening or instigating anything, and the first dude he shot came at him, threw something, and at the same time someone else fired a shot into the air, which Rittenhouse could easily claim he thought was from the guy chasing him or directed at him.

He put others in harm's way by bringing that weapon along. Or rather: Living in a country where that fact is not part of the equation and where this seems a viable and normal thing to do for too many people put him in a frame of mind where that seemed the thing to do. It isn't merely about him, he's not that unique. The difference is the outcome, the way the dice rolled.

Because the bigger discussion would be why in the world of fuck not a large majority is insanely bothered by armed people wandering the streets with impunity. It's just not normal or healthy for a society and until the US comes to terms with that all that will ever happen is discussing individuals actions. Which of course clouds, again, systemic/underlying issues. It's much easier to discuss the right and wrong of a random person/persons.

There were big, ugly and utterly stupid protests in Germany last weekend as well and a big headline generator was 1 (!) person being arrested with a handgun (!). Many americans would read those and be confused as to why it is a big deal ... And it's not like there are no guns in circulation, but they are not an accepted part of public life and treated like some sort of weird looking, slightly cumbersome pocket knife/pepper spray by society, so regulating it is massively easier.

[Ksyrup]

I wasn't supporting that theory, just seeing a pretty good case he could make being a defendant in an America court. You're talking about a country in which that guy is going to use as his actual legal defense that he was part of a "well regulated militia" and thus, his actions are protected by the Constitution. We are not a well society.