Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

My son just had an odd thought (while he's playing TEW), good enough perhaps that I'll share it here.

Him: You think Vince will ever come back?
Me: Eh, if he lives long enough then yeah probably.
Him: You know, the perfect way to bring him back would be to have him be how Bryan Danielson ends up on top. Him being what stops The Authority

We went on to talk about how, perhaps, that it would actually be Vince-like (IRL) to want to go out as a face rather than a heel. And how that would probably do it.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oh absolutely.

But are many of us (okay, I'm 47, definitely "over 35") buying games that are typically a morass of button stabbing? I'm just not seeing it.

You have kids right?

Edit:
Also the average gamer is somewhere between 30-37 but I have no idea if they buy wrestling games. But I can see people who loved wrestling in the 80s and 90s buying them.

[Abe Sargent]

So I heard a WWE wrestlerouted himself as gay on TMZ? That's an odd place to do that. I guess I miss that news. Happened a while ago?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

So I heard a WWE wrestlerouted himself as gay on TMZ? That's an odd place to do that. I guess I miss that news. Happened a while ago?

Darren Young.

[Abe Sargent]

I heard someone mention it in the context of Michael sam, and I hadn;t heard of that happening, so I thought they had misremembered it or something. Or maybe it had just happened this week or something. I wonder why I hadn;t heard about it more withte Sam stuff now.

Anyway, hows teh WWE been? Any major issues with fans or anything?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Anyway, hows teh WWE been? Any major issues with fans or anything?

Eh, it played about like you'd expect from a publicly-traded company I think.

He got a mini-push for a few weeks in the wake of the announcement, got the requisite tweets of support from a few names (Cena, who apparently has a gay brother if Wiki is accurate, for example). After that he appeared on TV maybe a total of a half-dozen times, been out since April with a knee injury.

In terms of reaction, honestly, it's Darren Young so we're talking about a guy who isn't even as big a deal as Chris Kanyon was.

[Mota]

So a question for you guys. Of the 3 guys from The Shield, was Roman Reigns in your opinion the right guy to be the chosen one?

I think he's got a cool look, but in my opinion his success has come from the push they've given him as opposed to his hard work. He's not as good of a talker as the others, and not as good of a worker. The WWE is going to have to do a great job protecting him and hiding his weaknesses to keep him looking good, something which was easy while he was in The Shield.

I do like that they seem to be pushing all three guys though, no one really seems to be getting ignored. They are all frankly pretty good talents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

So a question for you guys. Of the 3 guys from The Shield, was Roman Reigns in your opinion the right guy to be the chosen one?

I wonder if the wrestling mileage on the trio had something to do with that choice? I mean, both of the others have over a decade in the business (and have taken some serious bumps) while Reigns/Anoa'i has only been wrestling for less than five years.

They're all roughly the same age but the mileage on them is significantly different.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Reading the Battleground recaps thus far, I'll credit WWE with giving us at least one definitely unexpected (and I'm guessing two definitely unexpected, not sure about the IC Title result whether anybody saw that coming) outcomes.

And Rollins/Ambrose reminds me of some old fashioned old school booking.

[RainMaker]

I think all 3 are getting big pushes. Reigns was in the main event but that might not bode well since it's unlikely they will put him over Cena anytime soon. Rollins and Ambrose have the best feud going. Rollins has the briefcase too.

I don't think this will be like other groups where one star comes out and the others fade to the bottom of the card.

Still have no idea why they killed the Wyatts. They had so much momentum and fan support and whoosh.

[Mota]

Roman Reigns is the chosen one. Over the next year, he will almost never lose, and will very rarely even be showing weakness. They will force him to succeed at all costs.

I think the plan right now is for him to main event the next Wrestlemania.

I myself am a much bigger fan of the organic push. You start out all new wrestlers with a decent push, and those who seem to be getting popular you should develop them. The WWE has the opposite way of doing it. They pick their guy before we do, and shove them down our throats nonstop. Alberto Del Rio, Drew McIntyre, Sin Cara, etc.

I still think that Roman Reigns is really good. He's impressed me a lot since his debut. I thought he was just the musclebound gronk when The Shield first made their debut, and I think he's shown more than that. He's cool, and he has several great wrestling moves. I don't know if he can do a 20 minute opening Raw segment regularly. I don't know if he can wrestle a 20 minute main event on a PPV. He'll need to. We have yet to find that out. My biggest problem is that he'll never feel like "our" guy, he's "their" guy.

[RainMaker]

I think that's being optimistic. I could say the same thing about Ryback a couple years ago. They don't seem keen on trusting new talent with the main event. It's still all about the older guys in Cena, Orton, Kane, etc.

There's a slew of guys we all expected to get pushed to the next level that ended up reaching a ceiling in WWE's eyes and getting bounced down to the mid-card. Ryback, Wyatt, Cesaro, Barrett, Dolph, Swagger, and on and on. You can definitely argue some guys don't deserve it but the fact remains the WWE main event scene is basically the same as it was a decade ago.

[Mota]

Cool stuff, I just bought tickets to see Smash Wrestling in Toronto on August 17th.

This Sunday Kevin Steen just wrestled his last match as an indy wrestler there, and he said it was one of the most fun nights of his life. I regret not going!

I'll get to see the Super Smash Bros, Young Bucks, Chris Hero, Johnny Gargano, Jay Lethal, and a bunch of talented local guys. Should be great!

[Matthean]

WWE superstar Daniel Bryan puts burglar who broke into his home in chokehold until police arrive - 3am & Mirror Online

[Mota]

That's pretty amazing.

And that's with only 50% strength in one arm. Unfortunately he might need another surgery to fix this. I'm guessing that he would be out 6-12 months if that's the case. The less invasive surgery obviously didn't help him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Impact Wrestling -- CANCELLED By Spike TV | TMZ.com

[Suicane75]

And the world rejoiced. And a beautiful song did reign down from high atop the mountain.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

And the world rejoiced. And a beautiful song did reign down from high atop the mountain.

The obvious guess is that JJ's new promotion will end up with a slot somewhere from this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Also interesting to have this come after months of negotiations but just days after Spike was caught off-guard by the revelation that Russo was still on the payroll as a consultant.

[Matthean]

Not sure Vince could talk himself into grabbing much of anybody from there. I'm guessing it is why Sting left.

[molson]

I really hope the nail in the coffin was the whole Vince Russo thing.

If you haven't read about that, both Spike TV and TNA's Japanese wrestling promotion partner hate Vince Russo with a passion. Spike TV hates him basically because he's a handful to manage, he can't be trusted (he'd tell the network he's doing one thing then he'd do something else), and he produces a terrible product. The Japanese promotion hated him for all those reasons, and also because they think he's a racist. TNA promised both Spike and the Japanese promotion they'd never work with him again. For some reason, they hired him anyway, secretly. Everyone denied he was there, but the product was again suddenly booked just like Russo has always booked, so it was the worst kept secret in wrestling. But then shit hit the fan when Russo tried to email Mike Tenay about some company business. Instead, he accidentally emailed PWInsider.com's Mike Johnson, who made a story out of it. Russo kept lying, he claimed that he sent the email on purpose to prove that the dirt sheets would publish anything. Eventually he admitted the truth. Spike and the Japanese promotion were pissed. It was just classic late-era WCW kind of stuff.

It seems like the right time for Panda Energy to pull the plug on the whole thing, but if they wanted to keep it going for some reason, I bet they could find a spot somewhere. They still get more than a million viewers a week, not bad at all for cable.

Of course, they should have sold when they could. Apparently, Jeff Jarrett and Toby Keith offered to buy but The Carters wouldn't sell unless Jarrett promised an on-screen role for Dixie Carter, and they wouldn't agree to that, so they're starting up their own promotion. But the company is now worth nothing unless they get a new TV deal.

The whole TNA story, the whole run, is just weird. So many great workers, so many great matches, but they never really moved the needle into relevance. Even though they way more eyeballs on them and bigger TV deals than ECW ever did.

There's so much talent there even now. It's a great opportunity for Jarrett, I guess, but I'd be really surprised to see anyone else significantly top the viewers and business TNA did. And if that business and those viewers weren't enough for Spike, you have to wonder if pro wrestling can ever really work on TV again outside the WWE.

Edit: I was typing all that as Jon posted about Russo.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Not sure Vince could talk himself into grabbing much of anybody from there. I'm guessing it is why Sting left.

Yeah, there's not a whole lot left there. A few small guys but that's not a big niche for Vince.

Angle, at some point, if he could pass a physical.

[molson]

This was from Meltzer's site:

"A number of media sources have reported that Spike TV will not be renewing Impact Wrestling when the contract expires in just over two months.

There were reports that Carter positioned to her staff at a meeting on Friday that they were leaving Spike on their own volition due to a lack of promotion, but others have confirmed Spike had told Carter they were not going to offer a new deal.

The decision came days after Spike found out that Vince Russo was still working for TNA.

At this point direct sources at Spike did not respond to questions from just after the meeting and most within TNA, including talent, were not aware there was any issue until today when rumors started flying.

This puts the company in grave position. They have UTA representing them in an attempt to get a new television deal, but unless they could get a deal that pays similar to what they were earning on Spike, financially, the company that had been struggling financially with the Spike payments, would not be in good shape.

TNA was founded in 2002 by Jeff and Jerry Jarrett. The company was about to fold when the company's publicist, Dixie Carter, found out they were on the verge of closing and convinced her parents to purchase the company. The company lost tens of millions of dollars, but kept up a glimmer of hope. They were close to folding in 2005 when Spike and WWE had their split, and Spike brought them in for a late Saturday night one hour time slot.

Eventually the show was moved to Thursday, and expanded to two hours. Aside from a brief period when they moved to Monday and drew poor ratings, they did solid above station average numbers on Thursday.

An official word from TNA after the news broke is that "We have not signed an extension and are still in negotiations."

[molson]

Oh, and this from Meltzer today also (he wrote this before the TNA thing broke):

"I hate to say this, but there are a lot of things going around that indicate this coming week will be one of the biggest news weeks of the year. The first two may not be done deals yet. Story No. 3 is a lock and will happen, which is Thursday's announcement of the WWE network number."

No idea what the other story would be (It could be something UFC related. But Jim Ross tweeted that ROH might be sold too. The other rumor is WWE suing CM Punk)

[Suicane75]

I would guess that Roode may get a look, but I can't imagine there's very many other guys on that roster that WWE would want. They didn't have any interest in Styles so that tells you pretty much all you need to know.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

Oh, and this from Meltzer today also (he wrote this before the TNA thing broke):

"I hate to say this, but there are a lot of things going around that indicate this coming week will be one of the biggest news weeks of the year. The first two may not be done deals yet. Story No. 3 is a lock and will happen, which is Thursday's announcement of the WWE network number."

No idea what the other story would be (It could be something UFC related. But Jim Ross tweeted that ROH might be sold too. The other rumor is WWE suing CM Punk)

I wonder if one of these is the Buff Bagwell news.

[RainMaker]

I think it's sad if TNA goes away. The product has been bad for awhile now, but it had a lot of talented people in it. Seemed like a nice place for talent who WWE couldn't figure out how to use to still find work.

Also wouldn't their product be at least a little in demand? I mean a million live viewers a week isn't bad for some cable channels.

And WWE suing CM Punk would be one of the dumbest decisions they could ever make.

[molson]

I think TNA could definitely find a network, but the problem, according to Meltzer and others, it'd they have to get paid comparably to what Spike was paying them. They're losing tons of money already despite a bunch of cuts. So it ultimately comes down to how much Panda Energy is willing to lose. And since Panda Energy ordered the cuts, it doesn't seem like they'd be willing to now lose WAY more money to keep TNA going on AXS or something.

On the other hand, even though the WWE's new TV deal was disappointing money-wise, it was still way bigger than the last one. There is the perceived increased value of live "sports" on TV. TNA doesn't usually run live, but there's zero ratings difference between their live and taped shows, so maybe they'd still get that "live sports" bump, if networks assume people are more likely to watch their stuff "live" v. DVR? If WWE got a pretty big increase, maybe TNA could at least get something comparable to what they already had? We'll see. TNA might get hurt by its reputation for bad business decisions, dishonesty, and the generally soiled brand name. WCW still had several million viewers and couldn't find a new TV deal at the end.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it's sad if TNA goes away. The product has been bad for awhile now, but it had a lot of talented people in it. Seemed like a nice place for talent who WWE couldn't figure out how to use to still find work.

Also wouldn't their product be at least a little in demand? I mean a million live viewers a week isn't bad for some cable channels.

And WWE suing CM Punk would be one of the dumbest decisions they could ever make.

Trust me, anyone worth anything in TNA will get plenty of work on the indy scene. It's a shit company with a shit owner, and shit creative team that paid people shit. And while the ratings may be attractive, when you dig deeper and see exactly what sort of ad rates those ratings bring in, it becomes a lot less attractive. It's the reason WWE's re up with USA wasn't anywhere near what you'd have thought it would be given the ratings they pull.

If I had to guess I'd bet that Spike fills the loss of TNA with another wrestling product, whether that's Jarrett or ROH or someone else, I have no idea.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

There is the perceived increased value of live "sports" on TV. TNA doesn't usually run live, but there's zero ratings difference between their live and taped shows, so maybe they'd still get that "live sports" bump, if networks assume people are more likely to watch their stuff "live" v. DVR?

Networks are dumb. They aren't that dumb.

The problem TNA has -- money aside -- is that there really aren't many networks left who would consider pro wrestling as an option. I LOL at the fanboys who cry "another network would do so much better" when the reality is there's probably nothing on the horizon close to Spike in terms of households that seems likely to even sniff them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Trust me, anyone worth anything in TNA will get plenty of work on the indy scene. It's a shit company with a shit owner, and shit creative team that paid people shit. And while the ratings may be attractive, when you dig deeper and see exactly what sort of ad rates those ratings bring in, it becomes a lot less attractive. It's the reason WWE's re up with USA wasn't anywhere near what you'd have thought it would be given the ratings they pull.

You should see how cheaply Sinclair tries to sell ROH. It's discounted even in the shitty timeslots most of their stations aired it. A complete disaster almost across the board, ratings were flatline (0.0 aka too small to be measured) in most markets that I saw.

Edit to add: it was frequently so bad that even at $5/spot (remember, I'm talking about the local market rates) it was overpriced.

[Suicane75]

Dear lord. Now that makes me sad.

[molson]

I've never understand the indy business model and how it works at all. When you look at how many people go to these shows. There can't be more than a handful of guys that can actually make a living doing this without also having a real job.

[Suicane75]

A lot of their pay comes from selling merch at said shows.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I've never understand the indy business model and how it works at all. When you look at how many people go to these shows. There can't be more than a handful of guys that can actually make a living doing this without also having a real job.

Most of the promoters seem to lose money, or break even at best.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Most of the promoters seem to lose money, or break even at best.

I think most small time promoters consider it a passion / hobby. People have low profit expectations from their hobbies.

If I took what I spend a year on golf and videogames...

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You should see how cheaply Sinclair tries to sell ROH. It's discounted even in the shitty timeslots most of their stations aired it. A complete disaster almost across the board, ratings were flatline (0.0 aka too small to be measured) in most markets that I saw.

Edit to add: it was frequently so bad that even at $5/spot (remember, I'm talking about the local market rates) it was overpriced.

The biggest problem has been the production. I sincerely believe I could make an equally good technical product with 3 iPhones and some video editing software, at least it would be high def.

I was a big RoH fan when it first launched on Sinclair but I find it almost unwatcheable (as a matter of fact I don't watch it).

[RainMaker]

Why was TNA so in love with Russo? I just don't get why this guy keeps getting work.

If you haven't listened to it yet, I highly recommend AJ Styles on Jericho's podcast a couple weeks ago. They both go through and talk about stuff TNA got wrong. It basically came down to them trying to copy WWE instead of being the alternative to WWE. Basically if WWE was ignoring tag teams and lightweights, they should rely heavily on it. And the other was bringing in guys from WWE right away and having them beat top TNA guys like Joe, AJ, etc. It made TNA look inferior.

Also learned that the 6-sided ring is apparently terrible on the body when taking bumps.

[Mota]

Remember when they had a chance to give the book to Paul Heyman, as long as they gave him a share in the company?

I would have loved to see that. I think he was the only one that had enough clout to turn the company around. A Paul Heyman reboot would have been worth watching.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Mota

The biggest problem has been the production. I sincerely believe I could make an equally good technical product with 3 iPhones and some video editing software, at least it would be high def.

I was a big RoH fan when it first launched on Sinclair but I find it almost unwatcheable (as a matter of fact I don't watch it).

I agree completely with this. Their production values are really poor.

That being said, I love the RoH product. I'll still watch it on tv even with the crap production values. I had a chance to go to one RoH event and one Monday Night Raw within a month's time a little while ago. I hadn't ever been to see any wrestling live until then, but I have to say that the RoH event was a whole lot more fun. There weren't really any storylines at the RoH show, but the wrestling was exciting. At the WWE event, the storylines were there, but the wrestling was slow as molasses compared to the RoH pace. RoH made the WWE look boring by comparison. I would definitely go to another RoH show before spending five times as much to go see WWE again.

If someone could mix the RoH pace of wrestling with the WWE production values, that would be my ultimate promotion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I just scuffle with comparing ROH now vs ROH heyday. So much of their talent is gone, hard for me to get past thinking about that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just finished reading a Raw recap. Did they seriously end the episode (including the customary overrun time) with a Bella vs Steph?

Srsly?

[Suicane75]

To be fair, it may be the hottest angle in the company right now. And Steph really has been awesome.

[Carman Bulldog]

Yeah, Steph is arguably the best heel in the company right now, and that's largely based on her ability to get over and make herself despised.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

To be fair, it may be the hottest angle in the company right now. And Steph really has been awesome.

Well now ain't that kind of a sad indictment?

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well now ain't that kind of a sad indictment?

Trust me, you'll find no bigger critic of WWE writing than me. I think they've blown both The Shield and The Wyatts thanks to lack of long term vision, but they caught lightning in a bottle with the Steph/Brie thing last week and it's over in a major way. If I thought it was being stuffed down peoples throats or it was a midcard thing being pushed higher because of Stephs involvement I'd be agreeing with you. But it's over and it's working.

Plus, for whatever reason they pulled back on the Ambrose/Rollins feud last night and they've got to use Brock very liberally. If this had been the go home show for SS then I'd be worried, but we're still a few weeks out so It makes sense that they'd be in that spot given how big reaction was to last weeks angle.

[RainMaker]

It's a nice feud for lower down on the car but finishing up a Raw with it is kind of sad in my opinion. The only reason they are doing it is for Total Divas.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You should see how cheaply Sinclair tries to sell ROH. It's discounted even in the shitty timeslots most of their stations aired it. A complete disaster almost across the board, ratings were flatline (0.0 aka too small to be measured) in most markets that I saw.

Edit to add: it was frequently so bad that even at $5/spot (remember, I'm talking about the local market rates) it was overpriced.

How come wrestling ad rates are so low? From an outsider I would think the demographic would be good. Young men basically.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How come wrestling ad rates are so low? From an outsider I would think the demographic would be good. Young men basically.

First, keep in mind what I cited there (the $5/spot) was local; i.e. what the local Sinclair station sells (or tries to sell) the spot for. I haven't seen any numbers in several months (my current client targets W25-54 so it's irrelevant) but the ratings for the show are basically at/near zero in all the markets I saw (maybe a half dozen). Men, women, old, young ... you can target an audience all day but if they aren't watching then it doesn't mean jack.

And my God, in defense of ROH, the air times (which were better at launch than they are now but were still pretty sketchy in some markets where they were finishing off airing syndicated shows they'd already paid for) are enough to kill most shows these days. 5pm Sat? 4am Sun? 4am Fri (a week late)?
Hell, no wonder the ratings are 0.0, that's the norm for the often shit stations Sinclair runs the show on. While there are Fox affiliates that carry it, many are MyNetwork & WB affiliates that the average viewer doesn't even realize exist.

The stations clearly wanted no part of this at the local level, it was shoved down their throats, it failed to perform in crappy dayparts (or even in good dayparts) and that gave them to leverage to hide it as best they could.

-----------

Now on a larger scale, the pro wrestling demographic for television is decidedly not young males. Never has been really. That's hype (and it coincides with the age group that was heavily involved at the beginning of the IWC). This article from 2013 breaks it down in more detail but the bottom line is that only 23% of WWE viewers are 18-34. 53% are over 35 and the largest single demographic component are viewers over 50, 30% of them. The average viewer is 38 years old.

Even with the numbers Raw does, the ad rates have typically been slightly artificially depressed by the perception of the quality of the viewers, regardless of age. Media buyers these days are typically female, they're increasingly young ('cause I know I'm not getting older, they're just getting younger), they're almost entirely divorced from anything other than the stereotypes that go with pro wrestling fans. So there becomes this Catch-22: the show's total audience is big enough that an advertiser has to be of a certain size & budget to be able to buy into the show but those who are targeting what is snobbishly considered a low-brow audience aren't necessarily comfortable with paying enormous rates to reach them. It's the same reason that MTV doesn't get ad rates you'd think they'd deserve for Love & Hip Hop or why Mad Men gets considerably more than their rating would dictate. It's not entirely the demographics, it's how those demographics are perceived by the media buyers.

-----

edit to add: Sorry. Didn't mean to write a novella there, just sorta got rolling.

[RainMaker]

That's interesting. I guess I didn't realize how old the viewership was for WWE. I was sort of surprised they didn't get a better deal in their latest contract.

I'm also kind of fascinated that they look at the quality of viewers besides just age and gender. I mean it makes sense but didn't think they actually did that.

How are advertisers treating DVR these days?