The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Once again, you refuse to acknowledge that there is a much larger group of people who are not happy with the policies being implemented that aren't nearly as radical or outspoken as the people you use to characterize a large chunk of the voting public. It's a failing assumption by this adminstration and the congressional majority to assume that the outcry both publicly and privately is little more than a small group of hate-filled idiots. There are much larger seeds of dissent that aren't nearly as forthright nor do they have any relation to the idiots you depict. You feel just fine about dismissing the Bush/Hitler comparison and noting that most didn't agree with that, but appear to have no comprehension ability to figure out that similar things may be happening on the other side now.

The problem is that this "larger group of people" haven't condemned the actions of the fringe, or worked to drown them out. they are content to let the fringe drive the protests/discussions/talking points. and that is something for which they ought to bear culpability.

It's like the quote on my facebook profile says:

“Man's inhumanity to man is not only perpetrated by the vitriolic actions of those who are bad. It is also perpetrated by the vitiating inaction of those who are good."

[stevew]

I thought this was a win for the Obama administration.
(assuming they actually got the intended target)

Matthew Borghese - AHN Editor
Mogadishu, Somalia (AHN) - United States Special Forces soldiers were behind yesterday's deadly helicopter attack on a coastal town in Somalia. Their aim was senior al-Qaeda official Saleh ali Saleh Nabhan, who the Pentagon believes was killed in the assault.

On Monday, local villagers claimed they saw French troops carrying out an attack on a car carrying two people. Paris denied it is operating on Somali territory, but continues to work as part of an international task force aimed at ending piracy off the troubled nation's coast.

Now, the United States is owning up to its role in the attack on a man believed to have been involved in the deadly bombings of American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania over a decade ago. President Barack Obama, working on intelligence from the region, agreed to the assault, according to reports.

U.S. Special Forces reportedly have the body in custody as they attempt to positively identify the deceased.

[DaddyTorgo]

WTG US TROOPS!!!

[stevew]

I guess they got intel on the guy, as to where he was headed in a convoy. One copter strafed his vehicle, the other swung around and the troops grabbed the dead bodies. Sounds like really good work from our guys.

[CamEdwards]

Someone call security... there's a black woman speaking at a Tea Party! How on earth was she allowed up there?

[JPhillips]

A Republican House member from South Carolina, Bob Inglis, is now calling on his fellow South Carolina GOP Congressman Joe Wilson to apologize to the House for his "You lie!" outburst.

Inglis has posted this one Twitter: "Just said to GOP Conference meeting what I said privately to Joe Wilson: apologize to House for rule violation."

He then followed it up with this: "Part 1: Joe Wilson apologized to President. Part 2: He should apologize to House for rule violation. That would end the matter."

And this: "Joe Wilson analogy: I speed, lose control of my car and hit your car. Part 1: I fix your car. Part 2: I pay my speeding ticket. Case closed."

Good for him.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

The problem is that this "larger group of people" haven't condemned the actions of the fringe, or worked to drown them out. they are content to let the fringe drive the protests/discussions/talking points. and that is something for which they ought to bear culpability.

It's like the quote on my facebook profile says:

“Man's inhumanity to man is not only perpetrated by the vitriolic actions of those who are bad. It is also perpetrated by the vitiating inaction of those who are good."

And I agree. The Democrat mainstream failed to reel in the crazies during the Bush administration and the GOP mainstream failed to reel in the crazies during the current administration. I would note that I don't believe that it's their responsibility to keep everyone in check. I figure it's my responsibility as a citizen to realize that the fringe isn't terribly bright, but I know that personal responsibility in this country is a fading trait.

My point is that the fringe doesn't represent the mainstream that continues to have concerns, even though some would paint the fringe AS the mainstream. I choose to ignore the nuts and focus on the policies. Rainmaker said he's only talking about the fringe now. He wasn't earlier, but I'll take him at his word that he has changed his previous stance.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

And I agree. The Democrat mainstream failed to reel in the crazies during the Bush administration and the GOP mainstream failed to reel in the crazies during the current administration

Crazies can't be reeled in. That's why they are crazy.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lungs

Crazies can't be reeled in. That's why they are crazy.

[gstelmack]

There's also the whole "why the heck is the media giving them a voice again?" issue. Remember, freedome of the press is there to protect the Republic, not help drive it into the ground...

[lungs]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

There's also the whole "why the heck is the media giving them a voice again?" issue. Remember, freedome of the press is there to protect the Republic, not help drive it into the ground...

I thought the liberal media doesn't give conservatives a voice?

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Someone call security... there's a black woman speaking at a Tea Party! How on earth was she allowed up there?

Non, no, no...you need to go and link to pictures sourced from liberal blogs. That way we can be certain this is legitimate.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by lungs

I thought the liberal media doesn't give conservatives a voice?

Well, of course they do when it anecdotally benefits their viewpoint. Just like Fox News has no problem running unflattering coverage of anti-war protesters with signs comparing Bush to Hitler.

[AENeuman]

Linking all Obama dissenters to the racist protesters is akin to linking all Evangelical Christians to Fred Phelps.

However, like Phelps, shocking, disgusting race rhetoric is more sticky and more likely to end up on random forums than well thought out rational rhetoric. (ie bikini Palin and the gun) It's hard to dismiss the "crazy few" when their message is seen by millions

[JPhillips]

This may be hard to believe, but its possible that most of the anti-Obama movement isn't racist and that there's a portion of it that is racist. As Ta-Nehisi Coates said at The Atlantic, "It's not the message, but it's a message."It's a hell of a lot more than a few signs. It's Glen Beck saying Obama has a hatred of white people. It's Stormfront rallying members to attend Tea Parties. It's a number of state level GOP leaders caught sending out offensive emails and pictures. It's selling products at the Texas GOP convention with pictures of Obama as Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben. It's damn near the entire birther movement. If you can't see any racist element it's because you don't want to see it.

All it would take is for Boehner or Cantor or Steele or even Limbaugh to say, "We have no place for racists and they aren't welcome here," but they haven't said that. Instead they've decided it's politically advantageous to turn a blind eye to the racism that's all around them. If you don't want to be tarred as racists, stop hanging out with racists.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Well, of course they do when it anecdotally benefits their viewpoint. Just like Fox News has no problem running unflattering coverage of anti-war protesters with signs comparing Bush to Hitler.

That's completely different. Most, if not all of the anti-war movement was linking Bush to Hitler.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This may be hard to believe, but its possible that most of the anti-Obama movement isn't racist and that there's a portion of it that is racist. As Ta-Nehisi Coates said at The Atlantic, "It's not the message, but it's a message."It's a hell of a lot more than a few signs. It's Glen Beck saying Obama has a hatred of white people. It's Stormfront rallying members to attend Tea Parties. It's a number of state level GOP leaders caught sending out offensive emails and pictures. It's selling products at the Texas GOP convention with pictures of Obama as Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben. It's damn near the entire birther movement. If you can't see any racist element it's because you don't want to see it.

All it would take is for Boehner or Cantor or Steele or even Limbaugh to say, "We have no place for racists and they aren't welcome here," but they haven't said that. Instead they've decided it's politically advantageous to turn a blind eye to the racism that's all around them. If you don't want to be tarred as racists, stop hanging out with racists.

Maybe they're waiting until they run for president. That seems to be the time to rid yourself of relationships with racists.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Well played, Cam.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Maybe they're waiting until they run for president. That seems to be the time to rid yourself of relationships with racists.

deleted because I misread Cam.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

All it would take is for Boehner or Cantor or Steele or even Limbaugh to say, "We have no place for racists and they aren't welcome here," but they haven't said that. Instead they've decided it's politically advantageous to turn a blind eye to the racism that's all around them. If you don't want to be tarred as racists, stop hanging out with racists.

This is just plain stupid. Any of those people would tell you exactly that if they were asked. Racism is all around us because there are stupid people in this country and those stupid people don't fall along party lines.

[JPhillips]

Funny then that no one here can say that. It's all about how few they are in number or how it's the same everywhere. Why is it so hard to say that the racist element of the anti-Obama movement is a disgrace?

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

All it would take is for Boehner or Cantor or Steele or even Limbaugh to say, "We have no place for racists and they aren't welcome here," but they haven't said that.

That's all it would take to what - end racism? That's pretty optimistic. Are you sure that none of them have ever said that racism is bad?

Obviously, there's huge racist elements in this country. I guess I don't quite get what the obessesion is with this element. What's the point? That there's racists in the U.S? We knew that. The only other purpose for harping on this stuff, IMO, is to try to invalidate the entire opposititon. And yes, I understand that nobody's saying that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist. But it's more subtle than that. A huge chunk, perhaps the majority of this thread, involves attacks on these super-conservatives. Even though NOBODY in the thread has taken their side. Why is that? It seems pretty obvious to me.

The discussion plays out the same way every time.

-Conservative said/did this.
-"Ya, but that's just the fringe, and there's a liberal fringe too."
-"Ya, the but the conservative fringe is more mainstream!"

Lost in the whole discussion, every time, is the fact that nobody is taking the fringe's side. So the entire dicusssion tends to be about the size of the conservative fringe. That's a great thing for a liberal to focus on, because they can't really lose. The focus in on this fringe, and the only discussion point is how many of them there are.

Nobody's saying that there isn't racism, or that racism isn't bad. People question what relevance that has to non-racist critisisms of the president, and what the strategy is in making it the central issue in Obama's administration.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny then that no one here can say that. It's all about how few they are in number or how it's the same everywhere. Why is it so hard to say that the racist element of the anti-Obama movement is a disgrace?

I think the racist element of our country is a disgrace. I don't limit it to just those who populate the anti-Obama movement.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Funny then that no one here can say that. It's all about how few they are in number or how it's the same everywhere. Why is it so hard to say that the racist element of the anti-Obama movement is a disgrace?

The racist element of the anti-Obama movement is a disgrace.

I believe racism is a bad thing.

But I don't think its racist to critcize a black president, and nobody here's making racist comments - so what's your point?

[molson]

It looks like Obama decided to ask the Supreme Court to block the release of the prisoner abuse photos.

In a Shift, White House Takes Prisoner-Photo Case to the Supremes - Law Blog - WSJ

He sounds more and more like Bush on security issues every day (except there isn't the same backlash - except from the always-consistent ACLU)

"releasing these photos would inflame anti-American opinion and allow our enemies to paint U.S. troops with a broad, damning and inaccurate brush, thereby endangering them in theaters of war.”

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

That's all it would take to what - end racism? That's pretty optimistic. Are you sure that none of them have ever said that racism is bad?

Obviously, there's huge racist elements in this country. I guess I don't quite get what the obessesion is with this element. What's the point? That there's racists in the U.S? We knew that. The only other purpose for harping on this stuff, IMO, is to try to invalidate the entire opposititon. And yes, I understand that nobody's saying that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist. But it's more subtle than that. A huge chunk, perhaps the majority of this thread, involves attacks on these super-conservatives. Even though NOBODY in the thread has taken their side. Why is that? It seems pretty obvious to me.

The discussion plays out the same way every time.

-Conservative said/did this.
-"Ya, but that's just the fringe, and there's a liberal fringe too."
-"Ya, the but the conservative fringe is more mainstream!"

Lost in the whole discussion, every time, is the fact that nobody is taking the fringe's side. So the entire dicusssion tends to be about the size of the conservative fringe. That's a great thing for a liberal to focus on, because they can't really lose. The focus in on this fringe, and the only discussion point is how many of them there are.

Nobody's saying that there isn't racism, or that racism isn't bad. People question what relevance that has to non-racist critisisms of the president, and what the strategy is in making it the central issue in Obama's administration.

really? you think it's because people want to paint all of the opposition with that brush??

ummm no.

it's because it's REPREHENSIBLE and BIGOTED. And in cases like that it's important to call out the racist bullshit for what it is so that it loses it's power and ability to subtley influence and infect others - particularly in younger generations.

if those on the "right" or those in the "opposition" on this board would just say "yes we agree there's an element of the opposition to obama that is racist and it's morally reprehensible and we reject it out-of-hand" then it would be a non-issue in this thread.

the fact that the majority of people in the "opposition" instead choose to defend these people is what makes it a constant theme in this thread (and indeed in society as a whole if you take FOFC as a microcosm of society).

by defending it, or refusing to acknowledge that it exists and that it's racist, you are implicitly empowering it.

not saying that one or two politicians or national media figures could make a difference, but if they all stood up together and said "hey this is wrong...it has no place in our party" it might do a hell of a lot of good as far as restoring some moral-rightousness to the GOP

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I think the racist element of our country is a disgrace. I don't limit it to just those who populate the anti-Obama movement.

of course i stopped reading before MBBF posted this.

kudos to him.

nobody's trying to paint the entire opposition to obama as racist, we're just saying that to a large degree the racists have hijacked the message and it's important that they are called out for what they are.

if someone isn't a racist then they shouldn't take statements made about the "fringe" as if they were directed at them

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

the fact that the majority of people in the "opposition" instead choose to defend these people is what makes it a constant theme in this thread (and indeed in society as a whole if you take FOFC as a microcosm of society).

by defending it, or refusing to acknowledge that it exists and that it's racist, you are implicitly empowering it.

I could have missed something, but I haven't seen a single post defending racism in this thread.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

The racist element of the anti-Obama movement is a disgrace.

I believe racism is a bad thing.

But I don't think its racist to critcize a black president, and nobody here's making racist comments - so what's your point?

nobody here is. but the impression is that those that are making those racist statements are being "defended" or "laughed off as no big deal."

if everybody (on both sides of the aisle) would just point it out and agree it's a disgrace instead of trying to justify it or downplay it, it could be moved past and we could have actual substantive policy discussions again.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

of

nobody's trying to paint the entire opposition to obama as racist, we're just saying that to a large degree the racists have hijacked the message and it's important that they are called out for what they are.

It's not painting the entire opposition, but it is an attempt to invalidate that opposition more subtly.

See the multiple: "these are the same people that think X" posts.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

if those on the "right" or those in the "opposition" on this board would just say "yes we agree there's an element of the opposition to obama that is racist and it's morally reprehensible and we reject it out-of-hand" then it would be a non-issue in this thread.

I've said that racisim is wrong as have many others in this thread. Are we seriously arguing whether racism is wrong here???? You can call someone out for playing the race card when it's not warranted while still noting that there are idiots around us.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

if everybody (on both sides of the aisle) would just point it out and agree it's a disgrace instead of trying to justify it or downplay it.

Nobody's trying to justify it or downplay how bad it is either. I just question the motivation behind making in the central issue of this thread when nobody here is disagreeing.

I could start a thread about how bad murder is, but that would be pointless. But if the murderers all happened to be of one particular group, it wouldn't be hard to figure out why I was bringing it up.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

First off, are you telling me that the first 13 trillion in debt put up by the last 3 Republican Presidents didn't matter? That magically was the buffer zone between acceptable and outrage?

Well, not to nitpick here, but let's be a little more precise. Just like the "past 8 years" statement that is thrown around (and we all do it), $13trillion is not what Obama started with. He started with $10trillion...the remaining $3 trillion has been accumulated over the past 9 months (not all his fault necessarily...but this is how it works for everybody).

I have no problem with being against spending. In fact, I'm against a lot of it myself. I hate the spending going on and the waste from government. I also hated it under Bush, Clinton, and the other Bush. I don't judge my outrage by the letter next to the person's name. I'm calling out hypocrisy. People who didn't mind going trillions in debt over the last 8 years but all of a sudden are storming the capital over it once a Democrat/Black man is in power.

So...becoming more aware of this country's financial mortality should be put on hold because our President is black? What does this even mean?

Whether some people should have been more aware during the Bush years or not...they are NOW. So what is Obama doing to explain these NECESSARY deficit spending levels? Not enough to ease the concerns of enough people in this country...unless again, you believe it is only racists and tea baggers who are concerned/not sold on his economic policy.

And while I'm against the spending and many of Obama's economic policies, I think I can state that these "tea parties" have a lot of racial overtones to them. Watching videos or pictures that are coming out from them, it's clear that a good percentage of the people there are not the kind of folks you are going to find from a diverse city. It's like a NASCAR event let out. When you see racist signs flying everywhere with a spattering of Muslim and birth certificate crap, the rally turns out to be less about spending and more about not wanting a dark skinned man in charge of the country.

Why does race even enter into this conversation? Because some liberal blog you visited is showing images that are offensive and you hate racism? Great...me too! Can you find a legitimate media outlet that has shown those same images...and can show enough of them to indicate more than a blip...or do those pics only happen to fall into the hands of liberal bloggers?

The whole thing is embarassing if you ask me. The screaming and unruly behavior isn't helping the discussion. The disrespect for the President and the office he holds is pathetic in my opinion. I said the same thing about the idiots dressing Bush up like Hitler. Be angry, call your representatives, write letters, and protest. But the nasty signs and misuse of basic government terminology by these inbreds just makes this country look dumb.

Agreed completely. And if any of those signs are legitimate and not photoshopped to suit a liberal bloggers' agenda to rile up outrage against the outrage...then I condemn those people and the people standing around them. But forgive my skepticism as racist conservatives aren't the only people with agendas involving deceit and misinformation.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

nobody here is. but the impression is that those that are making those racist statements are being "defended" or "laughed off as no big deal."

if everybody (on both sides of the aisle) would just point it out and agree it's a disgrace instead of trying to justify it or downplay it, it could be moved past and we could have actual substantive policy discussions again.

I'll do it, but only if I have my title here changed to Captain Obvious.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Well, not to nitpick here, but let's be a little more precise. Just like the "past 8 years" statement that is thrown around (and we all do it), $13trillion is not what Obama started with. He started with $10trillion...the remaining $3 trillion has been accumulated over the past 9 months (not all his fault necessarily...but this is how it works for everybody).

Whatever the number is, the point is the same. No one cared about the first $10 trillion.

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

So...becoming more aware of this country's financial mortality should be put on hold because our President is black? What does this even mean?

Whether some people should have been more aware during the Bush years or not...they are NOW. So what is Obama doing to explain these NECESSARY deficit spending levels? Not enough to ease the concerns of enough people in this country...unless again, you believe it is only racists and tea baggers who are concerned/not sold on his economic policy.

That's not true at all. I'm not sold on his economic policy and believe it's going down the wrong track in some ways. I'm not racist or a tea bagger.

My point is that none of these people would be storming Washington if George Bush was given a 3rd term. To go from not giving a shit about spending to magically becoming enlightened on inauguration day is a tad suspect.

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Why does race even enter into this conversation? Because some liberal blog you visited is showing images that are offensive and you hate racism? Great...me too! Can you find a legitimate media outlet that has shown those same images...and can show enough of them to indicate more than a blip...or do those pics only happen to fall into the hands of liberal bloggers?

Many of the posters I saw on TV, including the Obama African Witch Doctor one which seemed to be all over the place, came across as racist. Birth certificate crap, dressing him up as Bin Laden, or other Muslim stuff. These were shown on CNN and Fox News. I saw tons of Nazi signs all over the place as well.

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

The demographics of the people and the YouTube videos of the event seem to have racial overtones. That's my opinion. They aren't huge rallies, so each sign and person you see doing that stuff adds up. Perhaps these were just fringe elements of the rally that just by coincidence had their signs on TV or on the web, but there didn't seem to be anyone there telling them to get lost.

So these photos and people giving interviews were all photoshopped or fabricated? Interesting.

Agreed completely. And if any of those signs are legitimate and not photoshopped to suit a liberal bloggers' agenda to rile up outrage against the outrage...then I condemn those people and the people standing around them. But forgive my skepticism as racist conservatives aren't the only people with agendas involving deceit and misinformation.[/quote]

[RainMaker]

I mean the headline on arguably the most trafficked conservative news site today in big bold letters was:

WHITE STUDENT BEATEN ON SCHOOL BUS; CROWD CHEERS

With all the news going on around the world, a school bus fight gets the biggest nod. Not trying to stir up some racial tensions, eh?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I could have missed something, but I haven't seen a single post defending racism in this thread.

No one is calling anyone in this thread a racist. I never even said the movement against Obama was racist. I simply stated that the tea parties had racial overtones to me.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Whatever the number is, the point is the same. No one cared about the first $10 trillion.


That's not true at all. I'm not sold on his economic policy and believe it's going down the wrong track in some ways. I'm not racist or a tea bagger.

My point is that none of these people would be storming Washington if George Bush was given a 3rd term. To go from not giving a shit about spending to magically becoming enlightened on inauguration day is a tad suspect.


Many of the posters I saw on TV, including the Obama African Witch Doctor one which seemed to be all over the place, came across as racist. Birth certificate crap, dressing him up as Bin Laden, or other Muslim stuff. These were shown on CNN and Fox News. I saw tons of Nazi signs all over the place as well.


So these photos and people giving interviews were all photoshopped or fabricated? Interesting.

Agreed completely. And if any of those signs are legitimate and not photoshopped to suit a liberal bloggers' agenda to rile up outrage against the outrage...then I condemn those people and the people standing around them. But forgive my skepticism as racist conservatives aren't the only people with agendas involving deceit and misinformation.

[/quote]

I'm fairly certain one group or another would have stormed D.C. if Bush had been given a 3rd term... and I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that there'd be some conservatives among 'em.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that even if McCain had won the election and done the same things Obama has done, you would have seen similar protests against spending.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I mean the headline on arguably the most trafficked conservative news site today in big bold letters was:

WHITE STUDENT BEATEN ON SCHOOL BUS; CROWD CHEERS

With all the news going on around the world, a school bus fight gets the biggest nod. Not trying to stir up some racial tensions, eh?

Isn't that what you're doing in this thread?

If you're saying, "well Fox News does to", I definitely agree, though the reason there is more simple: race stories = web traffic.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm fairly certain one group or another would have stormed D.C. if Bush had been given a 3rd term... and I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that there'd be some conservatives among 'em.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that even if McCain had won the election and done the same things Obama has done, you would have seen similar protests against spending.

You really think the same people would be protesting McCain that are protesting Obama right now? That we'd have the same types of signs and same types of flags flying around?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i think the point is that it's far more than 1 and it's far more than local protest. it's a pattern of behavior.

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

The difference is, this is the first time the full wingnut media infrastructure has not only existed, but has been fanning the flames nonstop, during a Democratic Presidency. I think the crazies were out there, but they were only starting to find each other back then. And the fact that a lot of the grassroots organizational advantage of the right over the left was through evangelical churches, did keep a lid on the tone of much of the crazy back then. Now they've found each other, and they're feeding on each other's craziness, and this is happening largely outside of church (even if many of them attend evangelical churches) so that environment isn't there to limit their shrillness.

There's plenty of "crazy" to go around for the party out of power. Just check out the 40+ pages of google images comparing Bush and Hitler (many from anti-war rallies):
Bush hitler - Google Images

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You really think the same people would be protesting McCain that are protesting Obama right now? That we'd have the same types of signs and same types of flags flying around?

Definitely not (maybe a couple), but that was CamEdwards' post you quoted, I don't know how my name got in there.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You really think the same people would be protesting McCain that are protesting Obama right now? That we'd have the same types of signs and same types of flags flying around?

No, but a large number of conservatives would be protesting his policies. "Republicans first" wouldn't, but those people are largely dwindling in total number.

Back to the main subject, this whole "your fringe is worse than my fringe" defense of policies is pointless. As much as I disliked some of Bush's policies down the stretch, he atleast tried to sway people with arguments for them on things like tax cuts, privatizing social security, no child left behind, Iraq war. He said "tax cuts will stimulate the economy because of X"... "Privatizing social security will solve the impending crisis in cost because of Y" ... "No child left behind will improve public education because of Z"... "We need to go to war with Iraq because of A". He didn't say "Look, a bunch of lefty nuts are comparing me to Hitler. So, don't question my policies on taxes or the war."

You could atleast argue a point and get in a discussion. This is simply impossible to with the current administration. If you say "Hey, I'm worried about the cost of this health care program given the math doesn't add up, all prior deficit estimates have been way too low already and I don't see the benefit for the cost. Plus, I'm worried about my current employer dropping coverage down the line and waits for services."

The response isn't "I get those concerns, but here's how we can ensure the cost doesn't go up and you don't lose coverage by your employer ...".

You get "Hey, you're just one of those racist guys who yells at tea parties. Come back when you have a clue". Throw in the fact that non-democrats don't have any house of congress or the White House and that's a quick way to build a ton of negative sentiment from a large group of people.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Arles

The response isn't "I get those concerns, but here's how we can ensure the cost doesn't go up and you don't lose coverage by your employer ...".

You get "Hey, you're just one of those racist guys who yells at tea parties. Come back when you have a clue". Throw in the fact that non-democrats don't have any house of congress or the White House and that's a quick way to build a ton of negative sentiment from a large group of people.

And the response earlier was "America: Love it or Leave it" or some comment slighting someone's patriotism.

I don't say this to try to give validation to how it works today, but in my 15 years of following politics, this seems to be how its always worked.

[Arles]

The problem was that the dissension against the Iraq war and the Bush tax policy was not completely marginalized by the media. Administration are always going to try and marginalize dissent, but usually the media doesn't allow that to go unchallenged. The reason Bush had to make his case was that main organizations like the New York Times, Newsweek, CBS evening news, CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post and others ran stories on how the criticism was legitimate and even building on comments made people at rally's in op-eds. Now, outside of the WSJ and Fox, no one gives any credence in the media to the concerns by the dissenters.

My biggest fear right now is that we have a democrat-run house, democrat-run senate, democrat-run White House and major media outlets that do little to question their policies. These organizations did a very good job of making Bush and republicans defend their policies on a number of issues. Now, it almost seems like they spend more time trying to debunk the protests than actually investigate/question the administration's claims.

All this does is drive more people to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News, Ann Coulter, Glen Beck and even more vocal fringe because there's simply no other place to go if want a critical view of Obama's policies. I fully expect that Fox News, Limbaugh and others will be extremely popular (and more powerful) by the end of Obama's term because no one else was willing to question the administration. This will lead to more people with "fringe" views (in the eyes of the left) simply because the only way to get investigative reporting on Obama and the democrats in congress were to visit those outlets.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Arles

No, but a large number of conservatives would be protesting his policies. "Republicans first" wouldn't, but those people are largely dwindling in total number.

Back to the main subject, this whole "your fringe is worse than my fringe" defense of policies is pointless. As much as I disliked some of Bush's policies down the stretch, he atleast tried to sway people with arguments for them on things like tax cuts, privatizing social security, no child left behind, Iraq war. He said "tax cuts will stimulate the economy because of X"... "Privatizing social security will solve the impending crisis in cost because of Y" ... "No child left behind will improve public education because of Z"... "We need to go to war with Iraq because of A". He didn't say "Look, a bunch of lefty nuts are comparing me to Hitler. So, don't question my policies on taxes or the war."

You could atleast argue a point and get in a discussion. This is simply impossible to with the current administration. If you say "Hey, I'm worried about the cost of this health care program given the math doesn't add up, all prior deficit estimates have been way too low already and I don't see the benefit for the cost. Plus, I'm worried about my current employer dropping coverage down the line and waits for services."

The response isn't "I get those concerns, but here's how we can ensure the cost doesn't go up and you don't lose coverage by your employer ...".

You get "Hey, you're just one of those racist guys who yells at tea parties. Come back when you have a clue". Throw in the fact that non-democrats don't have any house of congress or the White House and that's a quick way to build a ton of negative sentiment from a large group of people.

that's just bullshit and not true.

if you want to have a legitmate policy debate and a logical discussion, that's one thing.

if however you want to walk around holding up "obama=monkey" signs while exclaiming that you have issues with the rising deficit, you're going to be called out as a racist.

you can't then turn around and try to play the innocent about the sign you were holding up. if you want respectful treatment then don't disrespect others.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

And the response earlier was "America: Love it or Leave it" or some comment slighting someone's patriotism.

I don't say this to try to give validation to how it works today, but in my 15 years of following politics, this seems to be how its always worked.

that's a good point

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So these photos and people giving interviews were all photoshopped or fabricated? Interesting.

That wasn't really my quote, but I think you responded to the right one.

Well, while I've seen plenty of "We don't want Obama's socialism" and "I didn't vote for this Obamanation" types of signs in the mainstream media (and I'm lumping Fox News and MSNBC in this)...I have not seen the overtly racist images like you posted, which the liberal blogs seem to have a plentiful source of, on any of the mainstream media's coverage.

So, yes...I am skeptical of where these images originated from and why only liberal blogs seem to have them.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Is LGF a liberal blog? If it has, things have changed quickly.

Little Green Footballs - Tea Party Leader Backs Racist Doc

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

if however you want to walk around holding up "obama=monkey" signs while exclaiming that you have issues with the rising deficit, you're going to be called out as a racist.

Can you link to a legitimate news source for this image/coverage?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, I'm seriously not seeing these anywhere but on left-wing blogs.