Maximum Football???

[KWhit]

Ouch.

[wade moore]

I think someone has hit on it.

The poeple enjoying M-F now (which judging by the message board has to be pretty small) are not enjoying it for being anything resembling a good sim of pro football. They like seeing their uniform designs on the field, or changing around all kinds of rules, etc. But not because of anything resembling the game of football.

Daivd can continue to cater to that, but if he wants to actually increase sales.. well...

[JPhillips]

It does seem like the core customer for this game fits into a very small group, the graphically hypnotized, not dexterous enough to win at Madden, statistically unconcerned, something somewhat resembling football fans.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I finally found something about stats using the latest build.

Please point me to the thread where this is at. Because to say that this game has come a long way and you still have those type of statistics is ridiculous.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It does seem like the core customer for this game fits into a very small group, the graphically hypnotized, not dexterous enough to win at Madden, statistically unconcerned, something somewhat resembling football fans.

So, people who watched the XFL?

[JPhillips]

After a while digging through at Matrix I can't find the thread that I pulled that from and searches tell me it doesn't exist.

But I did find this. From 12/16/2006. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1328201

[JPhillips]

To echo Digamma, look how bunched the ratings are for these QBs. It's from the same thread as above.

[stevew]

This is rich.

[CraigSca]

Anyone who can complete only 25% of his passes yet somehow parlays that into a 30.5% TD pct is A-OK in my book.

Interestingly, Hirshberg's longest completion is 71 yards, but he's averaging an amazingly consistent 74.7 yards per completion.

You can't stop Hirshberg utilizing physics or other universal laws. You can only hope to contain him.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Please point me to the thread where this is at. Because to say that this game has come a long way and you still have those type of statistics is ridiculous.

The game probably has come a long way, and those stats are an improvement from where it was 9 months ago. Sad, but probably true.

[Ksyrup]

Chicago's QB Mayer has stats that I've seen in a real NFL game.

[JPhillips]

And one last one. From 12/17/2006. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1328592

To be fair Daivd says he's going to completely redesign the quick sim engine for release 4. Of course as it stands now, I don't see any reason to drop 50$ on this.



I love Holzmeister and his incredible 13 for 257 season.

[MikeVic]

That team has a lot of QBs.

[Ksyrup]

Al Davis' fingerprints are all over the offensive schemes these teams are apparently using, judging from the QB stats.

[JPhillips]

In looking at it more I have to give Holzmeister some credit. 2 sacks in 257 attempts is pretty good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marauders

As I stated above, Maximum-Football should be locked down for an end build ...

No, what ought to be "locked down" are the people at Matrix and Daivd for fraud and false advertising.

And, judging from the last few pages of this thread, perhaps you. For your own safety, as you're clearly not of sound mind and could constitute a hazard to yourself or those around you.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Daivd can continue to cater to that, but if he wants to actually increase sales.. well...

I'm sure it's been stated before in this thread...but having not read every page (many, but not most)...I'll state my 2 cents on his next steps, to make his game more appealing, with the least amount of effort possible.

Create the mechanisms & hooks for a robust career mode. He should create a "Career Mode Shell" & do this in the hope that somebody will mod it & add some GM AI.

Perhaps if he offered some basic foundation modules to use for certain functions(draft shell, new player generation module, salary system, basic trade AI module, player development module, etc), he could allow the community to help create the advanced features typically expected from a football simulator by most fans "looking to play a football sim".

My guess is the majority of his customer base are people who mistakenly bought the game with incorrect assumptions, or those who enjoy feeling like they are "helping to make something big" by beta testing 9-10 months after the release. But he isnt going to make a living on Madden-haters who simply want to add some custom graphics, some playbook options, but sacrifice all of the GM features it offers(albeit, not very well).

With that...I'll stop trying to rationally comment on a game that may have had some nice potential at one time, but is clearly not going to become a simulation. It just strikes me as odd...why would somebody want super-sophisticated coaching playbook design capabilities, just to use them on an unsound "result generator".

[SteveMax58]

I would go with Bennafield...24 completions in only 13 attempts.

That is production!!

[Marauders]

Those screen shots are from a beta build that had a bug that was cleaned up on the next build. The stats you see are not the statistics that game play generated.

- Made several changes to stats loading and saving. Previously this would sometimes cause an addition of 45 passing yards onto 350 existing passing yards to be displayed as 35045 rather than the correct value of 395.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Create the mechanisms & hooks for a robust career mode. He should create a "Career Mode Shell" & do this in the hope that somebody will mod it & add some GM AI.

Perhaps if he offered some basic foundation modules to use for certain functions(draft shell, new player generation module, salary system, basic trade AI module, player development module, etc), he could allow the community to help create the advanced features typically expected from a football simulator by most fans "looking to play a football sim".

It seems to me, this is exactly what Daivd was hoping, mod developers jump in and finish off all the boring text sim stuff.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Those screen shots are from a beta build that had a bug that was cleaned up on the next build. The stats you see are not the statistics that game play generated.

Could you post some current screen shots.
Every time anyone posts shots, they are always old or from a beta.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Those screen shots are from a beta build that had a bug that was cleaned up on the next build. The stats you see are not the statistics that game play generated.

So, for the 400th time.

Convince us otherwise.

You keep posting things where Daivd claims it's been fixed... where you say you like it...

PROVE it.. it's very easy.. if these things really are fixed, then it should be very simple for you to post some informatin that shows these things have been improved.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

So, for the 400th time.

Convince us otherwise.

You keep posting things where Daivd claims it's been fixed... where you say you like it...

PROVE it.. it's very easy.. if these things really are fixed, then it should be very simple for you to post some informatin that shows these things have been improved.

NEVER!

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Surtt

It seems to me, this is exactly what Daivd was hoping, mod developers jump in and finish off all the boring text sim stuff.

Sure does...I should have added that the price should also be reflective of a game which requires so much modd-ing.

[JPhillips]

Surtt: It's in perpetual Beta. These screen shots are the only ones I can find that shows stats and they're just about a month old.

Marauders: The quote you posted about adding 45 doesn't apply to these screen shots. None of these stats, except longest td and two att/comp, seem to be typos. So the question is, are these stats generally accurate for sim play?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So the question is, are these stats generally accurate for sim play?

Accurate as compared to what?
(Just anticipating the next dodge)

Followed by: It depends upon what you mean by "accurate".

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Marauders-post#5060

As I stated above, Maximum-Football should be locked down for an end build and just tested for those features. . . . As far as I know, a full lockdown will be coming soon, and that should eliminate follow on bugs, so all standing features can be tested and any small remaining issues can be addressed.

Thank goodness it will be coming soon.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Those screen shots are from a beta build that had a bug that was cleaned up on the next build. The stats you see are not the statistics that game play generated.

Thank you, that clears everything up. I'd like to order 10,000 copies please.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by JAG

Thank you, that clears everything up. I'd like to order 10,000 copies please.

Sure. But for every additional copy you purchase, instead of adding 50 dollars to the total price, the digits 5 and 0 will be added to the end of the price. So you'll be paying 505050...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JAG

Thank you, that clears everything up. I'd like to order 10,000 copies please.

Wow, that are a lot of beer tents.

[Tekneek]

This thread is amazing. Never has so much been said about so little.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Sure. But for every additional copy you purchase, instead of adding 50 dollars to the total price, the digits 5 and 0 will be added to the end of the price. So you'll be paying 505050...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

It's going on my Maximum MasterCard. I'll actually be making money with the negative interest rates.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's going on my Maximum MasterCard. I'll actually be making money with the negative interest rates.

And being able to earn that negative interest from within your opponents end zone, oops, I mean from a date prior to even making the purchase, makes that even more inviting.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's going on my Maximum MasterCard. I'll actually be making money with the negative interest rates.

Gah, I have a $1000 dollar limit, but keep being charged for $1670 purchases!

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Gah, I have a $1000 dollar limit, but keep being charged for $1670 purchases!

On a positive note, you can be standing outside the store in which you are attempting to purchase an item and still be able to swipe your card.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I think you are missing some of the point here, or purposely ignoring it. I dont think you are a disengenuous person just based on posts here & when I check in occassionally on the Matrix boards, so I tend to think maybe you arent grasping people's valid reservations about the game.

Steve, thank you for your intelligent post.

I do grasp the valid reservations of people here, people on Football Freaks, and people on FBPro message boards. I have many of the same reservations myself, and I have voiced that on the Matrix Games public and beta boards.

The difference is that I am constructively working toward a solution, while there are many people here who would rather spout off potty words and cliche' phrases of discontent.

The irony is that they have no vested interest in the outcome of Maximum-Football; yet, they talk about it like they know more than they do and that they were harmed in some way.

By not releasing a demo, DW continues to prove to would-be customers that his game, which has been ripped for many reasons, (some invalid, but most extremely valid) is not a reasonably realistic representation of football.

I understand this, and I have stated from the start that I agree with this. I have also stated that cleaning up the game and adding the features the purchasers of the game want was the greatest concern, because unlike the people here, those people do have a vested interest in the game because they have paid for it.

By contrast, developers with a finished product do everything in their power to motivate & advertise to would-be customers to purchase their product by giving them a sample of it, ...

I agree. A demo would be nice (syn: agreeable, favorable, good, welcome, or to one's liking).

... not simply tell them "if you havent purchased the game, you cant judge it" nonsense.

It certainly may be judged, but reading posts here that are distorted or simply no longer apply shows that the judgment is not often based on the facts as they stand.

There are many people who post on the Matrix Games message board that do not own Maximum-Football. Some of them are courteous and constructive, and others of them are rude and degrating. If you were the developer, or even a volunteer beta tester, which would you listen to?

Developers who are trying to finance a beta until it is working properly do not release demos because it showcases the flaws of their game. It is actually that simple, and that is the perception reasonable people come to when researching the game.

That is a fair perception, but it is less applicable in this case, because I know how much work David puts into this project, and time is a major concern. That stated, I have lobbied to have a demo put out.

I too have enough money to lose on it, if I really hate it, but the apparent lack of intended features working properly & lack of expansive career mode make it an obvious choice that it would not suit me.

The game was not created with an expansive career mode in mind. I believe that expectations have caused undue negativity because of this.

I do not ask anyone to purchase Maximum-Football based on a pig in a poke. People must decide on their own if they are willing to support this indie effort or wait until they are sure that the game is up to a personal standard.

I wonder how many people took a chance on early versions of FOF and allowed it to be what it is now. Some people were willing to do so, and other were either unwilling or unable to do so, which is fine. The point is that the game is where it is now because of the willingness of the few to take a chance on a product when its success was uncertain.

That may not matter to DW...but it also shouldnt surprise him, Matrix, or you, that there just isnt a huge market for "Madden-Lite" w/ CFL & Arena basic functions thrown on...oh & for the same or more money than Madden costs?? Come on...seriously.

There is a large enough market. Maximum-Football does not pretend to be Madden-Light, as Madden is now a console video game and not much more. Then again, Madden doesn't have to be.

As far as pricing goes, I am sure that you all know David did not want Maximum-Football to be priced higher than $30. That was his target price. He stated so many times on the old forums. The pricing was the decision of Matrix Games.

I agree with you and David that $29.99 is a much better price point for Maximum-Football.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Gah, I have a $1000 dollar limit, but keep being charged for $1670 purchases!

That's odd because with my Maximum Mastercard, I was able to raise my credit limit to $1500 dollars when I made $500 worth of purchases. However the interest rate concerns me because it went up to 62%, but that okay because I have a balance of -$250, and I was informed they were going to send me a cashier's check.

I hear that Jerry Seinfeld is going to be in a commercial with Mxyzptlk in these new Maximum Mastercard commercials.

[Northwood_DK]

You forgot to answer this.

Could you post some current screen shots. Every time anyone posts shots, they are always old or from a beta.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Sure does...I should have added that the price should also be reflective of a game which requires so much modd-ing.

David has been very open about having the game in open source files that can be modded.

Again, he did not intend the game to include Career and GM functions in the game until, perhaps, a future version of the game.

This is correct.

[JPhillips]

Marauders: I'm not trying to be an ass, but if these screenshots aren't accurate can you please post some that are. Statistical accuracy is probably the biggest concern for most FOFC folks. If there isn't going to be a demo can we at least get some evidence that stats are at least in the ballpark.

That relates to constructive criticism. We simply can't give constructive criticism when the numbers are so far off. The information we have, admittedly limited (primarily by Matrix/Daivd) leaves us with the impression that the game is many, many steps away from producing realistic results.

In reading through the Matrix forums it seems that stats aren't discussed much. As I said earlier I just don't think it's a big concern for the community. The constructive criticism is mostly about playbook features or uniforms or game stopping bugs. None of that matters to me if the underlying engine produces unrealistic results.

I'm happy that's it's a good game for you and that you get satisfaction out of helping Daivd. For me, that's not enough. I have limited time and limited money. When I am asked to spend 50$, a price above most other PC games, I want a game that is at a minimum able to replicate what it claims. MF, after years in development still can't cover the basics.

[rkmsuf]

Marauders, are you like George Costanza....must be liked by everyone?

Why must FOFC like MF? Or even take it seriously. What difference does it make? Are you on some "I'm a new mod power trip?".

[stevew]

Who Marauders? Jennfier Wintre or Daivd Wintre?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Who Marauders? Jennfier Wintre or Daivd Wintre?

Seems much more like a medicated Jneifier Wniter to me.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Marauders, are you like George Costanza....must be liked by everyone?

Why must FOFC like MF? Or even take it seriously. What difference does it make? Are you on some "I'm a new mod power trip?".

Geeze, I can't stand the George Costanza character.

Naw, I keep tabs on many PC Football games and many websites. I haven't popped in here to post, even though I have been registered since April, because this thread wasn't really about Maximum-Football or anything worthwhile really. There is more spam in this thread than in the Hormel plant in Austin.

I did post to see if anyone wanted updated information or if anyone had questions.

No, it has nothing to do with being a mod. I post to other sites, and I have for quite a while.

Actually, I consider myself a rocker rather than a mod, but I'm not sure many of the young folk here would understand that statement unless they are fans of The Who.

[wade moore]

Marauders:

You continue, as northwood points out above, to completely dodge the issue.

Provide any kind of evidence that you can consistely sim/play through an individual game and have a good experience/reasonable stats.

Please, do this and you will prove us all wrong. All of us are making informed judgements based on the evidence presented to us, and thus far that evidence has been that it's a complete disaster.

Yes, there are some jokesters here, but many of us (myself included) are trying to explain this to you. You say we say things without knowing, but what we know is what is presented - screen shots and data, even that provided by the developer himself, that shows the game to a complete and umitigated disaster.

If you refuse to dodge this question, then I have to question if you really had the true good intentions in coming here that you say you do - which I believed at first.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I did post to see if anyone wanted updated information or if anyone had questions.

Please update us with details of how the game has improved. Not line items from a bug fix log, but actually information from within the game.

That's the updated information we all want.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by wade moore

If you refuse to dodge this question, then I have to question if you really had the true good intentions in coming here that you say you do - which I believed at first.

so like if he dodges the question then he's ok?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Surtt

Could you post some current screen shots.
Every time anyone posts shots, they are always old or from a beta.

Post current screen shots? And take the time out to stop working on *what* pray tell?!?!?

[SunDevil]

The irony is that they have no vested interest in the outcome of Maximum-Football; yet, they talk about it like they know more than they do and that they were harmed in some way.

This thread is the largest, most complete piece of artwork that this board has even been apart of. I think every person who has in some way contributed or voiced their opinion in this thread will be proud to know that the only good thing that MF ever did was be the genesis of this thread.

The people on this board will always have a more vested interest in this game than you and all your ass backward stats and uniform designers combined.

Oh and thank you for starting a new chapter in this thread.

[wade moore]

Oh and, we have a vested interested for two reasons.

A) We would all love to see a game like this done well.
B) We are offended when someone tries to completely rip-off gamers like us with garbage like this.