FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I respectfully disagree. I don't think that criminals on the street should have guns. However, if they're convicted felons, the problem is self-correcting because they aren't allowed to own firearms or ammunition.

Maybe not for too much longer. Barrett wrote a dissent in a case arguing that non-violent felons should be permitted to have guns.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Maybe not for too much longer. Barrett wrote a dissent in a case arguing that non-violent felons should be permitted to have guns.

That's disappointing. But at least it will keep guns out of the hands of violent felons.

[miami_fan]

What is Wanton Endangerment?

A person acts wantonly with respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.

First-Degree Wanton Endangerment: “A person is guilty of wanton endangerment in the first degree when, under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life, he wantonly engages in conduct which creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person” (KRS 508.060). First-degree wanton endangerment is a Class D felony, punishable with fines of up to $10,000 and up to five years in prison.

[RainMaker]

It wasn't even for the Taylor shooting. The Wanton Endangerment is because one of the cops fired 3 shots into the next apartment and almost killed someone there.

[JPhillips]

Cops can break down your door and kill you with no repercussions.

That's true for any of us.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Cops and break down your door and kill you with no repercussions.

That's true for any of us.

Well the cops did have a valid no-knock warrant and were also fired upon.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well the cops did have a valid no-knock warrant and were also fired upon.

If police feel they should be able to conduct no knock warrants they should accept the risk to their officers that comes with it. How many good guys with guns are doing the same thing if someone bursts into their house like that?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If police feel they should be able to conduct no knock warrants they should accept the risk to their officers that comes with it. How many good guys with guns are doing the same thing if someone bursts into their house like that?

Exactly this. I'm told I can and should defend my home with guns, but if the police bust down my door and I shoot at an unknown threat, they're allowed to kill anyone in the house.

If the no-knock warrant wasn't executed, no shots would have been fired, and Breonna Taylor would still be alive. This is why the whole system needs reform.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well the cops did have a valid no-knock warrant and were also fired upon.

A warrant they got by lying to a judge.

They also found nothing in the apartment. She had no criminal record. And the suspect they were investigating was in custody. Completely unnecessary and negligent.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A warrant they got by lying to a judge.

Source?

[RainMaker]

Louisville postal inspector: No ‘packages of interest’ at slain EMT Breonna Taylor’s home | In-depth | wdrb.com

[dfisher]

I don't know enough about how the warrant was obtained, but I'm assuming the officers involved weren't the ones that actually obtained a warrant. If that's the case, then this boils down to an entire systemic failure instead of murder by the officers involved. If you look at everything point by point, almost every action by every person involved in the shooting was justifiable/understandable.

1. The officers had a legal no-knock warrant for the premises. The argument can by made over whether they should have been granted a warrant, but I don't think you can hold that against the officers involved.
2. The officers then acted on the warrant. They were under no legal obligation to announce themselves; again, you can question whether they should have to do it, but that isn't on the officers. The biggest issue I have is the fact that they did the raid in the middle of the night; it could have been done in daylight and this wouldn't have happened, but, once again, the timing of the raid probably wasn't a decision made by the officers involved in the shooting.
3. The boyfriend, completely understandably, shoots at the officers as he is under the impression that someone is breaking into his house.
4. The officers, again completely understandably, return fire, as they are under the impression that someone is shooting at them.
5. Taylor is caught in the crossfire and dies.

The whole situation is awful, and Taylor should still be alive today. I just feel it is in fact a civil matter against the whole system that allowed it to happen, as, with exception of the idiot who just fired blindly from outside, the officers involved in the shooting were justified in their actions. That is not to say that Taylor's death was justified, if that makes any sense, as I'm struggling to convey my thoughts on this one. What happened to her was tragic and should not have occurred. There is no doubt that the officers killed her; however, I don't believe it rises to the level of murder.

[JPhillips]

Taylor was left without medical attention for 20 minutes. That at least shows a callousness from the officers on the scene.

But, in general, I agree with you. The whole system is broken. In this case a warrant was issued for the possibility of drugs being mailed to the house. Why the hell would that require a no-knock warrant executed in the middle of the night?

No-knocks for drugs have to go away. We have too many armed homeowners and a no-knock is just an invitation for tragedy.

[Ksyrup]

Apparently at least one neighbor testified that the officers announced themselves before shots were fired, too. The whole situation is terrible and never should have happened, but it was fairly obvious even back in March what the outcome was going to be.

My office is in downtown Louisville. I hope things don't get out of control tonight.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Louisville postal inspector: No ‘packages of interest’ at slain EMT Breonna Taylor’s home | In-depth | wdrb.com

I can't jump to the conclusion that they lied based on the article. The article doesn't say that the cops lied, just that they didn't ask this specific postal employee.

I do think it should be investigated if the no-knock warrant warrant was justified though.

[RainMaker]

The knots people will twist themselves into to defend this because the person shot was black. Cops illegally acquired a warrant to raid a house of a person who has no criminal record and ended up carrying nothing they were looking for. All while the subject was in custody. They then proceeded to put 8 bullets into an unarmed person who did nothing wrong.

I don't give a shit if they knocked or shouted they were police. If a bunch of men kick in my door in the middle of the night, most armed homeowners are grabbing their gun (and rightfully so).

An outrageous miscarriage of justice.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Taylor was left without medical attention for 20 minutes. That at least shows a callousness from the officers on the scene.

Didn't the coroner say she most likely died within a minute or two of being shot?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The knots people will twist themselves into to defend this because the person shot was black. Cops illegally acquired a warrant to raid a house of a person who has no criminal record and ended up carrying nothing they were looking for. All while the subject was in custody. They then proceeded to put 8 bullets into an unarmed person who did nothing wrong.

I don't give a shit if they knocked or shouted they were police. If a bunch of men kick in my door in the middle of the night, most armed homeowners are grabbing their gun (and rightfully so).

An outrageous miscarriage of justice.

Well of course it is, but you know how this shit works. They returned charges they know they can get to stick, because if they went with more extreme charges that got dismissed all hell would break loose.

While it may not serve justice, this will result in a conviction and as sad as it is to hear, the biggest burden on the city here is the civil part, which has bene settled. It completely sucks that in essence the outcome is paying off her family for her life, which no amount of money adequately covers, with the idiot responsible getting what amounts to a trivial prison sentence.

It was never a win win for the family

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Well of course it is, but you know how this shit works. They returned charges they know they can get to stick, because if they went with more extreme charges that got dismissed all hell would break loose.

While it may not serve justice, this will result in a conviction and as sad as it is to hear, the biggest burden on the city here is the civil part, which has bene settled. It completely sucks that in essence the outcome is paying off her family for her life, which no amount of money adequately covers, with the idiot responsible getting what amounts to a trivial prison sentence.

It was never a win win for the family

If this was a gang member who murdered her, they would throw every single charge they could find. Driving with a broken taillight, anything.

It's pretty clear that someone lied on the warrant which is perjury. That multiple officers fired their weapon recklessly. The government can railroad people on charges when they want to. They just don't want to when it is a white cop killing a black woman.

[GrantDawg]

If that's the case, whoever lied to get the warrant should be charged with perjury and more than likely felony murder. I will say this, though. The officers were justified by the letter of the law to defend themselves in this case as much as Taylor's boyfriend was justified in shooting at them. This whole thing was a big clusterfuck, and the system definitely needs reform.

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[RainMaker]

Taylor wasn't a threat to any of the officers. She had no weapon.

[GrantDawg]

Sure, but her boyfriend was firing at them. They returned fire, which is perfectly legal. She was caught in the crossfire. It is tragic, but not illegal.

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[Atocep]

I understand that the officers were technically in the fithe for firing, but the entire situation highlights the absurdity of the laws in our country. In how many countries can a shootout occur in someone's apartment where no crime was occurring, some dies, and no crime was commited?

[JPhillips]

Radley Balko is all over the idea that the police announced themselves, both because it makes no sense Washington would have been firing at police and LPD standard procedure apparently was announcing and busting the door simultaneously.

And the one witness that backs up the police apparently didn't until after multiple interviews when the story was changed.

[GrantDawg]

Yeah, and he was was the only one of twelve witnesses that says they did.

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[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Sure, but her boyfriend was firing at them. They returned fire, which is perfectly legal. She was caught in the crossfire. It is tragic, but not illegal.

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"She was caught in the crossfire". Actually she was in her bed, not in the middle of a gun battle. She had no criminal record and had committed no crime.

The cops you can argue had a right to "defend" themselves (although entering an innocent person's home on a bogus warrant would seem to make a self-defense claim moot) against the man shooting, but that doesn't explain why 8 bullets went into Breonna. This wasn't a stray bullet. Would a citizen who was in a self-defense position be able to spray a bunch of innocent people with bullets too? Highly doubt it.

As Atocep said, in what other country can you legally shoot someone when no crime occurred?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Yeah, and he was was the only one of twelve witnesses that says they did.

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An easy way to solve this is to play the body camera footage. Considering the police have repeatedly lied about this case, I don't know why anyone would take their word for shit.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Cops can break down your door and kill you with no repercussions.

That's true for any of us.

Yep. This is the issue right here.

As I have been with previous cases, I'm brought back to the fact that I think what juries do is the biggest problem here. I.e., we can reform all the other stuff we want, but how do you get a grand jury to bring back more serious and appropriate charges - and for the trial jury to convict as well? This keeps coming up in so many of these cases - prosecutors can do whatever they want, but when push comes to shove too many people don't want police held accountable. Possibly because they fear the fallout from that and would rather sacrifice the relative few victims for comfort in what the police provide in general.

I don't know how to fix that other than hope people on these juries start making more just decisions. Anybody have a better idea?

[GrantDawg]

She was in the middle of a gun battle. You don't literally have to be standing in between the people firing to be caught in the middle of a gun battle. They were shooting at her boyfriend, but bullets don't magically stop at a target. They continue going, and in this case hit her.

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[dfisher]

Has there ever been any kind of image released of the layout of her house? It would clear things up if we could see where she was when shot in relation to boyfriend/police.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

She was in the middle of a gun battle. You don't literally have to be standing in between the people firing to be caught in the middle of a gun battle. They were shooting at her boyfriend, but bullets don't magically stop at a target. They continue going, and in this case hit her.

No, she was in her bed. The cops made it a gun battle when they perjured themselves to get a warrant and start a conflict with an innocent, law-abiding couple.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Didn't the coroner say she most likely died within a minute or two of being shot?

Her mother's lawsuit says she died within about 5 minutes.

The lawsuit says she "fought for her life for more than five minutes before finally succumbing to her injuries."

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I respectfully disagree. I don't think that criminals on the street should have guns. However, if they're convicted felons, the problem is self-correcting because they aren't allowed to own firearms or ammunition.

My point is there should be no guns on the street except police. If you have a gun out of your home and are not a cop you are a criminal. Now we have all these fake tough guys who were bullied in kindergarten walking around with semi AK-47s to give them courage. I don’t give a shit which side they are on right or left. Many other advanced and semi advanced countries don’t have guns on the street We need to do some soul searching as to why we need to have armed citizens walking around like militia, anarchists etc.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Galaril

My point is there should be no guns on the street except police. If you have a gun out of your home and are not a cop you are a criminal. Now we have all these fake tough guys who were bullied in kindergarten walking around with semi AK-47s to give them courage. I don’t give a shit which side they are on right or left. Many other advanced and semi advanced countries don’t have guns on the street We need to do some soul searching as to why we need to have armed citizens walking around like militia, anarchists etc.

It's in case a tyrannical government tries to start denying their right to protest, firing back on their citizens, and starts kidnapping them off of the stre-- oh, wait.

SI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Her mother's lawsuit says she died within about 5 minutes.

The lawsuit says she "fought for her life for more than five minutes before finally succumbing to her injuries."

Regardless, if you accidentally shot an innocent bystander, wouldn't you feverishly be trying to save their life? Their lack of concern is quite a tell.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by dfisher

Has there ever been any kind of image released of the layout of her house? It would clear things up if we could see where she was when shot in relation to boyfriend/police.

PHOTOS: Inside Breonna Taylor's apartment after police raid | In-depth | wdrb.com

looks like a fucking war zone.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No, she was in her bed. The cops made it a gun battle when they perjured themselves to get a warrant and start a conflict with an innocent, law-abiding couple.

You know that the idea that she was in bed when she shot is a BLM lie right?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

You know that the idea that she was in bed when she shot is a BLM lie right?

Sorry, she got out of bed and was standing in her hallway when murdered. An important distinction I guess?

[Vegas Vic]

What's astonishing in this tragedy is the total lack of any modicum of culpability being assigned to Breanna's boyfriend Kenneth Walker, a convicted drug dealer who was staying at her residence as a buffer from the cops, essentially using her as a human shield.

More astonishing is the fact that he's suing the Louisville police for damages.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Regardless, if you accidentally shot an innocent bystander, wouldn't you feverishly be trying to save their life? Their lack of concern is quite a tell.

Keep in mind there's also someone who tried to murder you in the same room.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Her mother's lawsuit says she died within about 5 minutes.

The lawsuit says she "fought for her life for more than five minutes before finally succumbing to her injuries."

Based on what evidence?

[GrantDawg]

Kenneth Walker was a licensed gun owner, and was about to start working for the Post Office. Neither could be true if he was a convicted drug dealer. You have to stop reading made up shit, Vic.

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[NobodyHere]

Breonna Taylor protests: 2 Louisville police officer shot downtown

Good job Louisville, you're going to help get Trump re-elected.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

What's astonishing in this tragedy is the total lack of any modicum of culpability being assigned to Breanna's boyfriend Kenneth Walker, a convicted drug dealer who was staying at her residence as a buffer from the cops, essentially using her as a human shield.

More astonishing is the fact that he's suing the Louisville police for damages.

Pretty sure you’re referring to her ex who was already in custody.

[Jukeman]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Breonna Taylor protests: 2 Louisville police officer shot downtown

Good job Louisville, you're going to help get Trump re-elected.

To help bring more chaos? He hasn’t done anything since the riots started lol.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Keep in mind there's also someone who tried to murder you in the same room.

Yeah the innocent guy shot at a bunch of people who just kicked in the door of his own home. Pretty sure most of the people on this board with a weapon would do the same thing. He didn't create the situation, the incompetent police did.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Kenneth Walker was a licensed gun owner, and was about to start working for the Post Office. Neither could be true if he was a convicted drug dealer. You have to stop reading made up shit, Vic.

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Seriously. Wtf. The ex-boyfriend was a convicted drug dealer who listed his address as her home address. This takes two seconds using a tool called a “search engine” to figure out.

But yes, please go on with the fucking pizzagate, sperm demon, etc bullshit.

[RainMaker]

I should add that a lot of stuff can be cleared up if the police had released the body cam footage.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Kenneth Walker was a licensed gun owner, and was about to start working for the Post Office. Neither could be true if he was a convicted drug dealer. You have to stop reading made up shit, Vic.

I stand corrected. It was Jamarcus Glover, Breanna's ex-boyfriend who is the two time convicted drug dealer. According to evidence gathered in the undercover investigation, Glover was supposedly using Breanna's residence for drop shipments.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I stand corrected. It was Jamarcus Glover, Breanna's ex-boyfriend who is the two time convicted drug dealer. According to evidence gathered in the undercover investigation, Glover was supposedly using Breanna's residence for drop shipments.

That undercover investigation turned out to be made up shit by the cops.