FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Ksyrup]

Have you watched the video? You think she planned that, knowing she was going to shoot her gun, and was acting afterward?

[albionmoonlight]

I haven’t watched the video. So I’ll delete it. It just seems like such a self evidently stupid excuse. But it’s not my job to talk out of my ass when I haven’t actually watched things.

[Ksyrup]

I don't know how easy it is to mistake your gun for a taser, but she acted like she had no clue she had shot her gun until she pulled the trigger, as she yelled taser taser taser before she shot.

[Jas_lov]

What I didn't get about the video was one officer was putting cuffs on the guy and then another officer comes in and puts her hand in the way. Then it escalated from there.

[GrantDawg]

I just watched the video. Yeah, that was a tragic accident. I am afraid the protesters are not going to see it that way.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[BYU 14]

I am pretty sure this was unintentional, but it highlights a glaring training deficiency. Regardless of the stress level, you have to be able to recognize you have your gun drawn.

Obviously very easy to play Monday morning QB here, but most tasers are easily distinguishable due to the amount of yellow/orange on the frame and if these Tasers are black it is another thing that really needs to be addressed.

You need to see the markings of a taser in your peripheral vision.

[Lathum]

I just watched the video. While no one deserves to die for what he did, his actions clearly set off a chain of events that led to this happening. It is a tragedy to be certain, but what if he had gotten away and run down a mom pushing a stroller in his attempt to get away.

IMO people losing their minds over a situation like this and comparing it to the Floyd case deter from the later. Did the cop do a lot wrong, likely, did they intentionally murder him, almost assuredly no. There should be accountability on all sides here.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I just watched the video. While no one deserves to die for what he did, his actions clearly set off a chain of events that led to this happening. It is a tragedy to be certain, but what if he had gotten away and run down a mom pushing a stroller in his attempt to get away.

What if a guy pulled over for speeding ends up pulling away after getting a ticket and hits a group of children because he looking at his ticket? Should we put a bullet in everyone who has a "what if?" scenario attached to it?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I am pretty sure this was unintentional, but it highlights a glaring training deficiency. Regardless of the stress level, you have to be able to recognize you have your gun drawn.

Obviously very easy to play Monday morning QB here, but most tasers are easily distinguishable due to the amount of yellow/orange on the frame and if these Tasers are black it is another thing that really needs to be addressed.

You need to see the markings of a taser in your peripheral vision.

Don't holster tasers, find another way to carry them.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What if a guy pulled over for speeding ends up pulling away after getting a ticket and hits a group of children because he looking at his ticket? Should we put a bullet in everyone who has a "what if?" scenario attached to it?

This is a laughable comparison. Do better.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is a laughable comparison. Do better.

The most dangerous thing to the public during that incident was a cop shooting a gun and not knowing it was a gun. Could have killed her partner or a bystander.

Driving away is not a capital offense.

[Lathum]

Her actions were unforgivable and irresponsible, but to equate someone driving away after getting a speeding ticket to someone fleeing the police that are actively trying to arrest him is laughable.

[CrimsonFox]

BULLSHIT! She is full of BULLSHIT! Totally put her away for a year or more for manslaughter and criminal negligence!

You can see the gun in front of her face while she shouts "I'll tase you"....she does that twice. She can SEE her GUN. She can FEEL her GUN. There is ZERO EXCUSE here.

As someone pointed out she made things worse by getting in the handcuffers way.

But the whole bullshit of it was they trying to arrest him in the first place for stupid misdemeanors and air fresheners!

SO RACIST!

PUT
HER
AWAY!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Her actions were unforgivable and irresponsible, but to equate someone driving away after getting a speeding ticket to someone fleeing the police that are actively trying to arrest him is laughable.

They are both Class A misdemeanors.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Her actions were unforgivable and irresponsible, but to equate someone driving away after getting a speeding ticket to someone fleeing the police that are actively trying to arrest him is laughable.

He wasn't fleeing police. But the struggling he did got him in trouble. Unfortunately as racist as cops are...one would think that would trigger fight or flight since it's so frequent that he would get shot no matter what happened

They just can't win.

[tarcone]

She should be fired and charged with manslaughter.

The Chief who played Judge and jury should also be reprimanded.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

They are both Class A misdemeanors.

You're being intentionally obtuse...

[GrantDawg]

No lawyer, and don't know Minnesota laws but I am guessing a lesser degree manslaughter, or something like accidental or unintentional homicide. Reckless endangerment maybe? She should definitely lose her job.

[JPhillips]

Police fear traffic stops and we have the technology to capture license plates and send tickets via mail. Why don't we lower the risks for everybody and end misdemeanor traffic stops?

[ISiddiqui]

The whole he could have hit a stroller while pulling away is a pretty laughable statement in itself, tbh.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The whole he could have hit a stroller while pulling away is a pretty laughable statement in itself, tbh.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Please explain to me what is laughable about that? You think he is going to obey all the traffic laws while fleeing from the police? You think he is going to be paying attention to what is around him or to the police cars behind him?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Police fear traffic stops and we have the technology to capture license plates and send tickets via mail. Why don't we lower the risks for everybody and end misdemeanor traffic stops?

You would in essence be making the owner of the vehicle responsible not the operator.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You would in essence be making the owner of the vehicle responsible not the operator.

They already have red light cameras.

If you get a ticket and you weren't driving, you can submit an affidavit indicating that you weren't driving at that time and telling them who was.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Police fear traffic stops and we have the technology to capture license plates and send tickets via mail. Why don't we lower the risks for everybody and end misdemeanor traffic stops?

Because police use pretextual traffic stops as part of general law enforcement.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

They already have red light cameras.

If you get a ticket and you weren't driving, you can submit an affidavit indicating that you weren't driving at that time and telling them who was.

Didn’t know that, which is probably a good thing.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't holster tasers, find another way to carry them.

They are generally kept on a different location, such as the thigh, but usually not even remotely close to the officers gun. Point remains, make it impossible to mix them up with a weapon regardless and for the record, whether she meant to grab the taser or not, the fact that she instinctively went for her gun shows poor training, and a mindset that does not belong in law enforcement. She should be charged with negligent homicide.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Because police use pretextual traffic stops as part of general law enforcement.

Yeah, this is another reason to get rid of traffic stops.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

You're being intentionally obtuse...

Just stating the law. You are trying to justify homicide over a Class A misdemeanor.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Please explain to me what is laughable about that? You think he is going to obey all the traffic laws while fleeing from the police? You think he is going to be paying attention to what is around him or to the police cars behind him?

You can say the same thing about someone texting on their cell phone. We shouldn't shoot them either.

We don't use lethal force because of some plausible scenario in the future. What the cop did was far more dangerous than a person fleeing a scene in an automobile.

[Lathum]

Find one thing I said that justifies it. You can’t because I’m not. My point was it isn’t comparable to the Floyd case.

[RainMaker]

You literally blamed him for it. That it was his actions that caused it. Not the cop who doesn't know the difference in a gun and taser.

[GrantDawg]

I can we say that the officer was criminally negligent, the victim did not deserve to die, but he isn't completely without fault in the fact he did resist and try to run? Didn't deserve to be shot, doesn't obsolve the officer, but was an idiotic thing to do over a misdemeanor warrant.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Maybe he didn't trust the cops?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Maybe he didn't trust the cops?

Lots of people don't, which if the case would make you extra careful I would think. And this isn't defending what happened or one of those "if only he complied" excuses.

Lets be straight, nothing excuses this killing, especially with a 26 year vet of the department. I just don't get why you would ever want to increase tension in this situation.

There have been times I wanted to cuss a cop out, but I know it doesn't improve my odds of a favorable outcome if I do.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You literally blamed him for it. That it was his actions that caused it. Not the cop who doesn't know the difference in a gun and taser.

Show me where I did that. I said his actions set off a chain of events, I didn't blame him for his death and I certainly didn't justify it. I actually said there needs to be accountability on both sides.

If you can't admit his actions set off the chain of events your obvious bias against the police is the reason why.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Lots of people don't, which if the case would make you extra careful I would think. And this isn't defending what happened or one of those "if only he complied" excuses.

Lets be straight, nothing excuses this killing, especially with a 26 year vet of the department. I just don't get why you would ever want to increase tension in this situation.

There have been times I wanted to cuss a cop out, but I know it doesn't improve my odds of a favorable outcome if I do.

Turns out his fear was justified since he was dealing with a cop who doesn't know the difference in a gun and taser.

The argument of "just comply with the incredibly dangerous and dumb police officers" is not a good one.

[sterlingice]

I'm going to assume that on social media, there's less outrage from the "blue lives matter" crowd about the firing in this case because, clearly, she's a hysterical woman and that's why she's incompetent.

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The argument of "just comply with the incredibly dangerous and dumb police officers" is not a good one.

Because it always turns out so much better when you don't...

[ISiddiqui]

So let's just not care about civil rights of people at all because the cops may decide to shoot you slightly less if you submit?

C'mon that's defending heavy handed policing. Even pulling away from the cops should not be a death sentence. And a response saying well he just should have listened is really really fucked up

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

Again, there is a middle ground here. Both people can be wrong.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[ISiddiqui]

But only one person is dead here. The wrongness of both has lead to an ultimate consequence. When it comes to someone who has the ability to shoot someone maybe their actions need to be at a higher standard and evaluated more harshly.

One person tried to drive away from a traffic stop. One person mixed up their taser and firearm. The latter is far far far worse imo.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[JPhillips]

Another way state legislators can help would be to make it illegal for cities to budget predicted fines as a part of the overall budget. Cops get pressure to make bs stops in part because city governments rely on fines to balance the budget.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But only one person is dead here. The wrongness of both has lead to an ultimate consequence. When it comes to someone who has the ability to shoot someone maybe their actions need to be at a higher standard and evaluated more harshly.

One person tried to drive away from a traffic stop. One person mixed up their taser and firearm. The latter is far far far worse imo.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Yes, and no one said one wasn't worse than the other. The kid was still wrong for resisting and trying to run. The officer would have been perfectly in her right to taze him in that situation. That does not absolve her of the guilt of shooting him.

She was arrested today, and charged with second degree manslaughter. That looks about right.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Turns out his fear was justified since he was dealing with a cop who doesn't know the difference in a gun and taser.

The argument of "just comply with the incredibly dangerous and dumb police officers" is not a good one.

So the solution is everyone take it on the selves to fight and run away from cops. That will turn out great for everybody.
The kid didn't run because he was afraid of the police. He ran because he didn't want to go to jail, and thought he could get away. Lethal force was not justified, which is why the officer was arrested today. His infractions don't absolve the officers infractions. Her infractions don't absolve his.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Turns out his fear was justified since he was dealing with a cop who doesn't know the difference in a gun and taser.

The argument of "just comply with the incredibly dangerous and dumb police officers" is not a good one.

Which is why I didn't use it, do you just scan posts before you reply. and quit painting all Police Officers with such a broad brush. Statements like that are just as ignorant and stupid as the people that paint minorities that way, or try and use crimes on their records as justification for what happened.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

So the solution is everyone take it on the selves to fight and run away from cops. That will turn out great for everybody.
The kid didn't run because he was afraid of the police. He ran because he didn't want to go to jail, and thought he could get away. Lethal force was not justified, which is why the officer was arrested today. His infractions don't absolve the officers infractions. Her infractions don't absolve his.

Agree 100% and as someone entrusted with protecting public safety her transgressions are much worse, but the answer is not to fight or run in these situations. It creates too many bad scenarios and I'll give you one that is very close to home for me, which I think is somewhere else in this thread, but I don't feel like looking for it right now.

One of our closest couple friends, like us, are an interracial couple, who have mixed kids. There youngest was shot by Police last year after he ran from Police who came after his estranged girlfriend called them because he was knocking on her door and wouldn't say who he was, or leave.

he has had issues with substance abuse and has a short fuse and both impact his ability to remain on the right track. I also coached him in HS, and by and large he is the stereotypical good, respectful kid with issues that knock him back 2 steps for every 1 he takes forward.

Long story short, they got the body cam footage from all officers and asked me to watch it, because they did not want to. Their son lied to police, then ran, officers pursued and in the course of the chase he dropped a gun, stopped to retrieve it and was shot. (I should add he survived and is now in jail)

It is not an apples to apple comparison obviously, because in his situation, he was armed, and though he claims he never pointed the gun at officers, it was dark and impossible to tell and the officer made a split second decision. To be honest, from the body cam footage it was hard to even se it was a gun, though as they closed in to attend to him it obviously was and sadly I told our friends the truth in that it was hard to find fault in the shooting.

Again, not the same here, but it demonstrates how these decisions are made under high degrees of stress and with little time to process. Again, the officer who was arrested and fired today was completely at fault and should be convicted as I find it really hard to believe she did not realize that was her gun. And whether it be training, or complete ineptitude be someone that should not have a badge, of most likely, a combination of both, the point remains.

Officers need more training, better trauma/stress counseling resources and better screening when hired. It's one of the hardest, most stressful jobs in America and most people can't do it, so do a better job of weeding them out and give those that make the cut, the opportunity to be better.

And to close the loop on our friends son, the body cam footage kept rolling as they attended to him and he was treated with compassion and true concern. I know that is not always the case, but form this and my ride-alongs, discussions with my son and LEO friends, I can confidently say most men and women perform this job better than most of us could. It is a tragedy whenever things like this happen and the fact that it is an outlier doesn't excuse it in the slightest, but sometimes we need perspective when judging law enforcement as a whole.

And this is not directed at you Grant, just making a general statement.

[GrantDawg]

No, we are in complete agreement here, BYU.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Again, there is a middle ground here. Both people can be wrong.

One committed a misdemeanor, the other murder. I guess both did something wrong. The scale of each is quite different.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Which is why I didn't use it, do you just scan posts before you reply. and quit painting all Police Officers with such a broad brush. Statements like that are just as ignorant and stupid as the people that paint minorities that way, or try and use crimes on their records as justification for what happened.

Because it is a systemic issue with police. Sure there are good ones, but they can't speak up without facing consequences. There is a reason that consequences only occur when there is clear video and it has gained national attention.

It's been a pretty bad week for cops.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So let's just not care about civil rights of people at all because the cops may decide to shoot you slightly less if you submit?

C'mon that's defending heavy handed policing. Even pulling away from the cops should not be a death sentence. And a response saying well he just should have listened is really really fucked up

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Not sure if this is in response to me, but I never once even suggested it should be. I am all for police reform, but to claim the situation is EVER improved by doing what he did is insane.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But only one person is dead here. The wrongness of both has lead to an ultimate consequence. When it comes to someone who has the ability to shoot someone maybe their actions need to be at a higher standard and evaluated more harshly.

One person tried to drive away from a traffic stop. One person mixed up their taser and firearm. The latter is far far far worse imo.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Literally not one person in this thread is suggesting otherwise. If I come across that way apologies, my original point is this shooting in no way compares to George Floyd. It is obviously problematic in its own ways.

[GrantDawg]

Again Rainmaker, I have already made it clear that both mistakes weren't equal. But the say the motorist did nothing wrong is just false. Also. To say he ran because "he was afraid of the police " is bullshit. He wasn't too afraid to pull over in the first place. He was only afraid of having to face the warrant he had.
Again, nothing justifies the shooting. Nothing justifies his running either.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk