08-07-2015, 04:25 PM | #501 | ||
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Which is exactly what he preceded the statement with. Quote:
He explicitly mentioned that individual initiative is a reason we succeed. It takes a narrow reading to say that is an attack on the entrepreneurial spirit.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 08-07-2015 at 04:28 PM. |
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08-07-2015, 04:29 PM | #502 | |
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Heck, you have Republicans who refer to Bernie Sanders as a National Socialist. Some people haven't moved away from that.
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08-07-2015, 04:35 PM | #503 | |
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And some Dems who call Bush a fascist apparently. Product of the polarized world we currently live in unfortunately.
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08-07-2015, 04:44 PM | #504 |
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Apparently the real winner in last night's debate was Fox News
http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/07/medi...-news-ratings/
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08-07-2015, 06:01 PM | #505 | |
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That was a hot topic back in the day. The point of contention is what is the role of government? We can go back to the Preamble of the Constitution and see how much has changed. Every time we give up some of our freedoms and give that power to the government, we move farther down the path of socialism, in some way, shape, or form. Not all of these are bad, and some are essential, but to deny this is folly. Some government is needed. I look at the role of government as an entity for the common good that cannot be provided by the individual. Settling legal disputes, that's a government function. Giving me a method to get to work? That's my job. Providing me roads to take to get there? Government. Health care? That is on me. Providing a means of communication? Government. The sticky part about the Constitution is "promote the general welfare." We all have different ideas of what this means. Some want a larger role of government, the larger the role, the more socialized we are. |
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08-07-2015, 06:14 PM | #506 | |
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You are completely misunderstanding why though. The military is explicitly provided for by the Constitution (common defense and all). For years we either had a militia system or a very small regular military (and frequently behind the times) because of how we viewed the military, what our nation's needs were, and our fear of the government. It was not until WWII that we realized as a nation we had to take a leadership role on the world stage to try and prevent another world war. A strong military helps get our point across. An individual cannot do this on their own. It is only by pooling our resources that we can do so. |
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08-07-2015, 06:18 PM | #507 | |
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But why shy away from the socialist label to describe the military, when that is a perfect example? That's what I mean about 'socialism' being used as a pejorative term. It was like those people protesting 'Keep the government out of my Medicare'.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 08-07-2015 at 06:23 PM. |
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08-07-2015, 06:24 PM | #508 | ||
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Wait, did you actually mean they called him a Nazi? Or was that an accident? From a recent USA Today Q&A, the very first question was this Quote:
He's a SELF-DESCRIBED Socialist. Anyone referring to him as such is effectively quoting him. Whether the term is pejorative or not (and it certainly is when I use it to describe the vile p.o.s., I'd just as soon see ISIS in the White House than his sorry ass) is up to the user.
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08-07-2015, 06:31 PM | #509 | |
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The National Review used that exact term, "National Socialist". Bernie Sanders's Politics of National Socialism | National Review Online
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08-07-2015, 06:36 PM | #510 | |
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I can, and it'll be easy: just nominate Scott Walker. I'll camp out in line, Black Friday style, to vote for Hillary at my precinct in the general. I mean, no, I'm probably not voting for her if Scott Walker's not on the ticket, but if he is, and Hillary's his opponent? I wouldn't even have to think about it. I still don't know if any of the Republicans named "Not Walker" will rise to the level of being someone I'd actually WANT to vote for in 2016 (I was impressed by some of what I heard from Rubio, but...it's early) but my rankings right now look kinda like "Not Walker" > "Not Hillary" > Hillary > the rancid poo from my toilet > (fill in the blank) > Scott Walker |
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08-07-2015, 07:03 PM | #511 | |
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The issue is this statement. You say that Obama has opened us up to socialism, but that opening goes back to the military and public education. You weren't initially having a theoretical discussion about what constitutes socialism.
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08-07-2015, 07:26 PM | #512 | ||
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Fair enough. I've never used it, haven't consciously seen it used before. Pretty sure that's an outlier. That said, this discussion did give me one of the better lines I've read in a while so it's got that going for it Quote:
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08-07-2015, 07:32 PM | #513 |
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Is this the thing that was popular here a few years ago where you're hypocrite if you're in favor of smaller government and lower taxes generally, but you're also okay with the concept of public roads?
Last edited by molson : 08-07-2015 at 07:32 PM. |
08-07-2015, 07:50 PM | #514 | |
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The difference between Kasich and Walker is that Kasich has shown he can take "no" for an answer. He holds a lot of the same positions and has done or has tried to do a lot of the same things, but when the voters repudiated him on his assault on the unions, he backed off on that. Walker would have doubled down and tried to find another way. Not saying Kasich is my favorite non-Walker candidate but there's enough daylight between the two that Kasich doesn't cause the visceral reaction from me that Walker does. |
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08-07-2015, 08:24 PM | #515 | |
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And stuff likes this makes me wonder why I bother... Military cannot be provided by an individual. An individual can provide for his own health care. The government stepping in and doing so is advancing socialism. Any government has some aspects of socialism in it. The question is how far you your advance in that spectrum. Once the government steps in and provides health care insurance in any way, shape, or form, you introduce the potential for the government to intrude in our lives more in the name of the common good. |
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08-07-2015, 09:03 PM | #516 | |
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08-07-2015, 10:15 PM | #517 |
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Which is a sad commentary on the state of the nation, that teachers are completely devalued.
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08-07-2015, 11:17 PM | #518 | |
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50 years?!! People have called Obama a socialist as a way of portraying him as evil or anti-American. It happens on a day to day basis, so no... its not moving away from equating those two a long, long time ago. And down South at least, they are considered equally bad.
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08-08-2015, 12:56 AM | #519 | |
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I'll quote myself, because I sure missed on that comment. Trump has spent the last 24 hours taking on Megyn Kelly and Fox News. His comment that perhaps blood was coming out of her whatever (I guess he was implying menstruation) got him un-invited from a Republican gathering in Atlanta tomorrow. People may be drawn to someone who isn't politically correct. I certainly agree that Trump isn't politically correct, but this latest round basically confirms that Kelly was entirely justified in questioning his misogyny. I don't know if he has the fortitude to make it to the Iowa Caucus, but he's destroying any chance he had of raising his ceiling of support. Maybe Trump was aiming for an endorsement from Kiran Gandhi. Though I'm still not 100% convinced that isn't an Onion hoax. |
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08-08-2015, 01:03 AM | #520 | |
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If you go with simply the dictionary definition of fascism an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. then I'll be the one to say that socialism is considered the worse of the two forms in no shortage of places in the South, and not really by a particularly narrow margin. Mostly depends upon who is in charge tbh.
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08-08-2015, 08:31 AM | #521 | |
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Going back to this: Carson is gaining support with many of my strongly Christian friends, so I was interested in seeing him and learning more about him. He seemed fine to me in the debate, and learning about his background, I was like you thinking he was fascinating. That was until I read the Time magazine piece on him written right before he announced. He was sitting with one his political staffers watching Obama give a speech. In it, he called Obama a psychopath, that everything he says is a lie and he knows it. That Obama's chief's goal was to destroy America. Is it really so hard to understand (especially from a very well educated man such as he) that it is possible that two people can disagree on what direction the country should go without one of them being a psychopath? That really is the poison that is pervasive in the political system now, that the opponent doesn't disagree with your positions, but they are insane and want to purposely end America. Carson is just another spewer of poison. Not interested. Last edited by GrantDawg : 08-08-2015 at 08:32 AM. |
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08-08-2015, 09:28 AM | #522 | |
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This. Jim's wrong on the merits as Carson ends his answer with, and that's what she's done. I'll admit it's a little confusing because Carson conflates Hillary and Obama, but the message is certainly there. I'm fine with the standard hyperbolic rhetoric that policy x will destroy America. That's common on both sides. Questioning motives, though, should be called out. There's a big difference between candidate x loves America, but her policies will cripple... and candidate x wants to destroy America from the inside.
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08-08-2015, 10:31 AM | #523 | |
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Well if this statement wasn't framing the debate in a biased fashion . An individual can provide for his own security. So in your words, the government stepping in and providing collective security in the form of a military is advancing socialism. Recall that in the early years of the Republic many were against a standing army. They merely wanted to call on the state militias if there was an issue where collective defense was required.
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08-08-2015, 10:34 AM | #524 |
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You know, I could probably vote for the right republican candidate again, but as soon as they start talking about the moral high ground based on their religion I just turn off. It all seems so self aggrandizing, not that politics in general isn't.
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08-08-2015, 11:04 AM | #525 |
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I don't know if I will have as much fun doing anything this year as Trump has had running for President.
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08-08-2015, 01:41 PM | #526 | |
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And I touched on that in an earlier response. Our standing military was extremely small until after WWII. We never truly realized how bad it was until the Civil War. Part of the reason why we fought the First Battle of Bull Run when we did was the term for the first batch of 90 day volunteers was almost up. It took us another 80 years to realize the value of a larger standing army. My point is the more we rely on the government to provide for us, the more we become dependent upon it. There is a spectrum, the more we rely on government to provide services the further we move down that spectrum and we become more socialist. The question is whether we believe this to be bad. Most on these boards have no problem with moving down the spectrum towards the socialist side. I prefer to be on the free enterprise side of the spectrum. I believe that individuals or businesses are better suited to provide solutions as compared to the government. What is interesting to me, along the lines of cartman's question about the the military being a close to socialist ideal and the minimal government people such as myself being proponents of it, is that many minorities favor more government influence in their lives, but they tend to suffer more from that government. Look at the police brutality issues that have arisen recently. Why would I want more of that influence in my life, especially if I am a minority? |
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08-08-2015, 02:04 PM | #527 | |
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politi...one/index.html
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08-08-2015, 03:20 PM | #528 | |
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There needs to be both to check each other. "Government" should be the collective effort of the people. It's often portrayed as some faceless monolith, but it shouldn't be - it should be what the people as a whole came up with and shaped. This is why it is important for everybody to have a say, so you don't get a small interest making the rules for everybody else. It should be there though to keep a nation grounded and to provide a certain level of fairness. But, industry and corporation has to be there too. It can be smaller and more specialized, and more exceptional. It can fail and succeed on its own merits, it's not going to be held back by a massive collective. It doesn't have to cater to the greater good (though it should not be allowed to actively damage it), it just has to focus on wants, and it can act in ways that benefits itself. That's why minorities would favor more government - industry isn't going to do shit for them, at least not if they don't have money. Government in theory should because it should be doing something for everybody (the base level of which is debated, of course), looking out for everybody. The problem is when government isn't representing everyone or when it is controlled by the same forces that are running the industry side of things. Which is why we're seeing complaints against police, the judicial system, Congress, etc. People are saying hey, this isn't supposed to work like this. Government isn't supposed to be keeping anybody down, it's supposed to see that you get a fighting chance.
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08-08-2015, 05:17 PM | #529 | |
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Stone's been a first class rat fucker going all the way back to Nixon.
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08-08-2015, 05:20 PM | #530 | |
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But how do you really feel?
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08-08-2015, 05:36 PM | #531 |
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He was perfect for Trump, but it's no surprise that those two personalities can't coexist long term. Read up on Stone, the guy's a legend.
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08-08-2015, 05:49 PM | #532 | |
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So you don't like him because he uses Obama's strategy against him? |
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08-08-2015, 07:26 PM | #533 | |
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So you're pissed 'cause he told the truth about the bastard? Obama isn't the disease, he's just a symptom. That's about the only place the "poison" analogy fails afaic.
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08-09-2015, 10:29 AM | #534 |
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Post-Debate Poll (NBC) Trump 23% Cruz 13% Carson 11% Fiorina 8% Rubio 8% Bush 7% Walker 7%
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08-09-2015, 10:57 AM | #535 |
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Got a link to that poll by any chance?
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08-09-2015, 11:07 AM | #536 |
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No, I just saw the screenshot from Meet the Press.
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08-09-2015, 12:46 PM | #537 |
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don't worry too much about it... it was just an online poll done with SurveyMonkey. No, I'm not kidding. NBC’s Debate POLL says FIORINA, Trump won debates, CRUZ and Carson JUMP in general race » The Right Scoop - edit to add: Despite the headline, both the debate outcome & the "new standings" are covered in the article.
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08-09-2015, 02:17 PM | #538 | |
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I feel like we have veered off this intention.
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08-09-2015, 02:24 PM | #539 | |
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If it wasn't for the federal government, they wouldn't have gotten out from Jim Crow. They wouldn't have equal rights in hiring decisions. If you talk to minorities, you'll find that they are not fond of local governments or businesses, but they do trust the federal government to help them because that has been the only group that has done so. You'll note a lot of minorities prefer the federal government to take power from states for just that reason.
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08-10-2015, 03:04 PM | #540 |
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The first post-debate poll from Iowa done by a major polling firm is out.
We're dealing with tiny sample sizes, but, taken for what it's worth, it suggests Trump has lost a third of the support he had a week ago. Fiorina appears to the major beneficiary, and Carson, Cruz and Rubio had significant gains. Walker's also down. I have to admit that I have no idea why there's such a perception that Fiorina dominated the JV debate. I found her far too religious for my tastes, and mostly playing the attack Hillary role. But there have been so many positive stories, and now this poll, to conclude anything other than she's one of the top tier candidates for the moment. As we know, the next moment could be entirely different. I still wouldn't worry about Trump. The more he talks, the less people like him. |
08-10-2015, 03:06 PM | #541 |
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Thank you for that reminder. It's inevitable that issues discussions veer into the general red/blue debates that never produce anything meaningful. Heavy moderation (not that I could do it even if I wanted to do it) tends to shut down debate rather than focus it. So I think a gentle reminder from time to time does a lot of good. |
08-10-2015, 03:10 PM | #542 | |
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Why don't you think these two things would be selling points for Republican voters? I also heard she came across as very competent.
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08-10-2015, 03:40 PM | #543 | |
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I don't think you can make sure a strong statement. This is PPP's first Iowa poll and you can't necessarily compare it's results to other polls. There was also only one Iowa poll showing Trump with a +30% result, so we don't know if that was accurate or an outlier. We can pretty safely say Trump leads, but whether he's gained or lost or stayed the same is more of an unknown.
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08-10-2015, 03:52 PM | #544 |
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Yeah, isn't that what I said - taken for what it's worth, other appropriate hedging? It's early and the situation is fluid.
We could add a disclaimer to pretty much any poll discussion: "valid reasoning exists to suggest this isn't even remotely accurate." I could also suggest that the news channels all gain from artificially pumping up Trump's chances. There's a narrative there - it's not like CNN's desperate search for Malaysian airplanes, not knowing whether or if Al Capone's treasures lie at the end of their travails. |
08-10-2015, 04:28 PM | #545 | |
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She appeared to have a pulse. Pretty much everything I've seen about the JV game indicates that alone would have put her in the top two of that prelim.
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08-10-2015, 05:30 PM | #546 | |
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Yeah, that's about the least surprising thing ever.
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08-10-2015, 06:33 PM | #547 | |
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Almost certainly what you meant anyway, but I thought I'd tweak that for context. There are certainly Republican voters for whom social issues and RAWR CLINTON DESTROY aren't at the beating heart of their party affiliation, but many of them are less likely to be primary voters in the first place. Last edited by SackAttack : 08-10-2015 at 06:34 PM. |
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08-10-2015, 10:31 PM | #548 |
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I think she gets several points:
There were low expectations coming into the race. She didn't have to do well to improve. She had lower threshold, especially in the junior debate. She had some major Repub folks helping her along. She is here, in part, to play a strong anti-Hillary role. Which she did to a tee. She can go after Clinton without appearing sexist, and they are made of similar stuff. Carly, for example, was the first CEO of a top 20 company in America. She has that going for her. I also think that Fiorina and Carson are the beneficiaries of being outsiders. People who gravitated to Trump in part because they liked his anti-politics stuff may be sliding to the other too as Trump falls. In fact, in Iowa, to cite the survey that was done by a Policy Institute, Carly right now has the most 2nd choices of any Republication. Again, she has positioned herself. She has some deadweight. She lost an election, the whole Demon Sheep advertisement from CA, her HP resume isn't airtight, etc. But she definitely is strong. For example, her siting specific cases in the Katie Couric interview of where the Obama administration went wrong in foreign policy, and how she would do better was really strong. She cited four things we should have done to help Ukraine: Arm them, rearm the 6th fleet, do training exercises in the Batlic, and I can't remember the 4th off the top of my head, and I actually agreed with her dead straight, I think we just let that one go when we shouldn't Ukraine should have been the line in the sand for Russia after Ossetia, in my opinion. So as long as she doesn't blow things up, like Michelle Bachman, and as long as other major contenders are knowing themselves silly (Rand Paul) she could realistically be in the top for or five when the polls and caucuses start, and could rack up some delegates.
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08-10-2015, 10:42 PM | #549 |
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Oh, and in case they forgot, or were never familiar with it, here's the demon sheep add she ran in 2010.
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08-10-2015, 10:59 PM | #550 |
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That's tremendous. Not even SNL could have pulled that off. And yet she still beat Campbell by 30 points and had a respectable showing in the general.
I know I should give her another look. For me, as an independent who has never voted for a Republican for president, I'm a little European when it comes to mixing religion and politics. It makes me uncomfortable when candidates throw the G-word around. She seems to be solidly still in the race, so we'll have more opportunities to see her (hopefully she has fired her commercial-making team). I know what's wrong with Hillary. I want to see someone who has a strong idea of what to do next. |
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