Werewolf XCVII - Labyrinth II (GAME OVER - COMMONERS WIN!)

[Autumn]

Well, of Pass and BK are up and up, then I guess I'd vote Abe, since I know I'm good.

I'm liking this idea of revealing though. Then it's just a race to the center while we pick off wolves. I don't see a downside yet.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Since everyone else is reeling in shock, let me think outloud. If all hte good/neutral guys reveal, we basically run the risk of losing our seer and bodyguard right off. Which won't mean much since we'll already know who the wolves are. We can pick them off and not need our roled players. Hmm.

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by MartinD

I'm seeing several posts from Autumn asking for me to reveal someone from my list - while I can see that there is some benefit (in that I would get another scan), I'm fairly sure that there's some downside risk as well. In particular, I could see a situation where I effectively decide who we're lynching by stating that a certain player is on my list, followed by a one-sided, pile-on vote - means that there's a pretty good chance that we lose out on getting some useful vote history from today's lynch vote.

There's also the possibility that the wolves may hand me a free scan if they were to night-kill someone on my list - don't think that they would make that move if that information was out in the open.

I don't have enough information to be comfortable with what may come down to declaring a death sentence on a completely innocent player, just to get one more scan (that I may not be able to use if I end up as the wolves' target on Night 2).

This is not saying that I won't make my list public - just that I would like to see a balanced argument, taking into account both the good and bad sides of the deal, before I start naming names.

This is some good thinking Martin. What do you think about letting the drama of the day play out, getting voting records and such out there before making your vote for someone on your list? Then we can see if people jump to your vote or not and why.

[Autumn]

Well, what good is it to the Minotaur to know who is Theseus? Clearly we could not longer reveal our locations if we're racing to the center with all roles revealed. But if they run into a room together I assume theyu're going to know it.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm

Well, one of them already has. Even if they do reveal, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. What am I going to do -- vote for you? I'm not sure if the wolves really care if I win or you guys win, either, so I don't expect them to night-kill my enemies or anything. The odds seems stacked in your favor here -- I have to make sure none of you rascals get to the center, and I have to get good rolls and defeat Theseus and Dr. Hyde.

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

But more than one person was singing dubb's praises as a player before he got lynched, and I have to think that given the opportunity the wolves would try to take him out over Martin (no offense intended Martin).

None taken - if I was on the side of the wolves, I'd want to get dubb on the sidelines as soon as possible too...

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

It looks like four people who voted for Dubb yesterday are not at least semi-cleared at this point is that correct?

Martin-claims to be Nostradamus.
Ntn-claims to be Inferno Hunter.
Lerriuqs-claimed to be good by Martin with a Nostradamus scan
Hoops-claims to be Telepath.

Leaving Autumn, Barkeep, Pass, and Abe as unknowns who voted for Dubb. I'd like to hear more from each of you why I and the rest of us shouldn't be voting for you tonight.

Yeah, but to be fair, if Martin was giving off signals of Nostradamus yesterday, should you instead be looking at voters of him? If I were a wolf, I'd vote for someone for whom they might be hidden Nostradamus rather than the alternative.

[MartinD]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

This is some good thinking Martin. What do you think about letting the drama of the day play out, getting voting records and such out there before making your vote for someone on your list? Then we can see if people jump to your vote or not and why.

Unfortunately, I don't really have that option, as I need to put in a relatively early vote - will be signing off for the night at around 11 UK time at the latest (6pm Eastern), and there's no way I'll be online near deadline, unless I get stricken by a case of sleep-surfing

[dubb93]

Let me be clear on this. Just b/c Pass has revealed absolutely does not mean he is trusted. He is not be trusted. He is absolutely not on our side this game. Infact his goal is to kill all of us. He wins when ALL of us are dead.

Unvote Pass

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I love it when people read back through pages of posts and respond as they go ;-)

I do it all of the time, just ask my peers. Sometimes it can be quite funny. I references hte Necro day earlier when I was building a case against Blade for a wolf when I discovered that he had been Day Killed and Blade was the seer, si I had been building a case against the seer about how he smelled like a wolf.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Well, one of them already has. Even if they do reveal, it's not like there's anything I can do about it. What am I going to do -- vote for you? I'm not sure if the wolves really care if I win or you guys win, either, so I don't expect them to night-kill my enemies or anything. The odds seems stacked in your favor here -- I have to make sure none of you rascals get to the center, and I have to get good rolls and defeat Theseus and Dr. Hyde.

you make a good point. just trying to think through all of the potential angles you could have for revealing...plots within plots and such.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Sweet. Now that we know the Minotaur I can say that I've transformed from Jekyll into Hyde.

Geez, I'm not sure if anybody'd beleivve me if I RR'd at this point. I am waaay behind teh curve.

[Thomkal]

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

V. Autumn
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
VIII. JAG
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XVI. Thomkal
XIX. nfg22

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by MartinD

Unfortunately, I don't really have that option, as I need to put in a relatively early vote - will be signing off for the night at around 11 UK time at the latest (6pm Eastern), and there's no way I'll be online near deadline, unless I get stricken by a case of sleep-surfing

ah yes forgot you were across the Pond. Still revealing close to 6 pm Eastern still gives us a good amount of time from the noon movement phase to discuss and get votes out there before you weigh in.

[Abe Sargent]

Well, for now, I find Autumn's lack of being in teh COT plus the slip to be enough.


Vote Autumn

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Yeah, but to be fair, if Martin was giving off signals of Nostradamus yesterday, should you instead be looking at voters of him? If I were a wolf, I'd vote for someone for whom they might be hidden Nostradamus rather than the alternative.

Okay there is that. Who then makes the best wolf candidate from the voters on Martin to you then? I myself was not fully convinced Martin was Nostradamus based on his posts, so I'm glad he came out and stated it more clearly today.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

but we don't want the person who has to kill Pass to reveal, right? you gotta throw that monkey wrench into there...and then we might kill them by accident...hmmm

I don't follow. Why did you think I wouldn't want to reveal? As Pass points out there's not much he can do against me; in fact the two of us don't even have complete control over our movements. And until Pass dies it's not in the wolves interests to kill me either since they don't want the Minotaur around either.

[Barkeep49]

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?

[Danny]

I'm not sure a mass reveal is a bad idea, if all the remaining good villagers reveal, we then only have wolves/loki left. Im sure there will be counter reveals and then it's just a matter of picking them off from that list.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?

Danny. Hoops and DaddyTorgo

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Who is the third telepath? Do we know?

I'm missing a whole lot of posts this game. Thanks Thomkal for putting that together.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm missing a whole lot of posts this game. Thanks Thomkal for putting that together.

No problem Barkeep, things were getting a bit scattered, good to have all in one place for easy viewing/discussion

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

So here's where we stand with reveals and role claims:

I. Lathum - blown up by the inferno device night 1 - Ancient of Earth
II. dubb93 - lynched day 1/returned day 2 - Phoenix
III. RendeR-claimed to be protected by the Paladin
IV. ntndeacon-claimed to be Inferno Hunter
IX. hoopsguy-claims to be a Telepath
X. lerriuqs-claimed to be viewed as good from a scan from Martin
XI. Danny-claims to be a telepath
XII. Barkeep49-claims to be Dr. Jekyll/Mr Hyde
XV. MartinD-claims to be Nostradamus
XVII. Passacaglia-claims to be the Minotaur
XVIII. DaddyTorgo-claims to be a Telepath

Unknown Roles:

V. Autumn
VI. Abe Sargent
VII. Schmidty
VIII. JAG
XIII. Chief Rum
XIV. Tyrith
XVI. Thomkal
XIX. nfg22

Just pointing out that we don't know Render's role either. He's a tweener.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'm not sure a mass reveal is a bad idea, if all the remaining good villagers reveal, we then only have wolves/loki left. Im sure there will be counter reveals and then it's just a matter of picking them off from that list.

While a mass reveal sounds great at this point, it kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the game too and not sure its fair to the wolves who have few places to hide at this point. But I will reveal if there's more of a call for a mass reveal.

[Thomkal]

good catch there Autumn.

[Autumn]

I'm tending toward revealing. Several of the Ancient's abilities revolve around finding out roles and we render them meaningless if we reveal. Some roles are less useful if revealed but it should be offset by the fact that we'll have the wolves cornered.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

While a mass reveal sounds great at this point, it kinda takes a lot of the fun out of the game too and not sure its fair to the wolves who have few places to hide at this point. But I will reveal if there's more of a call for a mass reveal.

Yeah, I understand, but we're already half committed to that. And since there are only four unrevealed villager roles the wolves can pick off the fbi agent/seer/bg pretty easily.

[Danny]

At this point, I think we're pretty much committed to a mass reveal. The wolves pretty much now know who the BG, Seer and FBI agent are anyway.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah, I understand, but we're already half committed to that. And since there are only four unrevealed villager roles the wolves can pick off the fbi agent/seer/bg pretty easily.

I agree, but I"m a bit hesitant to pull the trigger. I felt like I was central in causing some bad blood in the role reveal game and I don't want to screw any wolves over again, though I'd be very happy to beat them. I also haven't been playing long enough to know whether it's "bad form" to pull a mass reveal.

[Danny]

I'm not sure either actually, but my game was a bit different because it was explicitly part of the rules to not reveal. In general I wanted to avoid a mass reveal here, but now with so many roles revealed the wolves know who the seer/bg/private eyes are most likely (not necessarily who is which).

[Danny]

Though I guess if the wolves go to that group with their kills it narrows the field of who they could be.

[Autumn]

Well there are 9 unrevealed. Three of those are wolves, so there's six that they don't know.

[hoopsguy]

Autumn, my thoughts on a "mass role reveal" is that there probably should be some level of checks and balances in the game setup to discourage players from doing so. If those do not exist, or do not provide sufficient penalty to prevent the players from mass revealing, that is not the fault of the player who is doing what is best for themselves.

Bottom line - players almost invariably do what is in their best interest, even if it may not be great from a meta-game standpoint. Full role reveals on Day 2 seem kind of chintzy to me, but sometimes a game breaks like that.

[RendeR]

Its not often that a mass reveal will work this early inthe game. The rules set here tends to help us all around though so I think in this case its a great idea.

I will reveal my role if everyone else does.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well there are 9 unrevealed. Three of those are wolves, so there's six that they don't know.

True, but they do get to scan a player each night to see their role, one or two of those combined with a lynching and they know at that point. Still killing them off also helps us narrow down the field of wolves.

[Abe Sargent]

I agree, I think a mass reveal will end this game immediately.

[Autumn]

Well, I'm not sure whether to reveal or not, but given the reveals we've had, if there was one wolf on Dubb it must be Abe, so I'm going to vote for him.

[Autumn]

oops

Vote ABE SARGENT

[Danny]

Well, maybe not a mass reveal, but I see no reason for this not to be Abe vs. Autumn, so you two will likely want to consider revealing at some point.

[Abe Sargent]

I will if I have to.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Danny

At this point, I think we're pretty much committed to a mass reveal. The wolves pretty much now know who the BG, Seer and FBI agent are anyway.

I agree, at this point, we've kinda cornered in our most valuable roles, so we migjht as well gofer.

[Abe Sargent]

If a move towards me forces me to rr, then so be it, but I'd rather my role close to my vest for now.

[Abe Sargent]

We'll see how the votes shake out in a few hours. Plenty of time and I gotta do some work for teh next hour before I go on vacation the next couple of days.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

I'm not sure either actually, but my game was a bit different because it was explicitly part of the rules to not reveal. In general I wanted to avoid a mass reveal here, but now with so many roles revealed the wolves know who the seer/bg/private eyes are most likely (not necessarily who is which).

I feel somewhat bad about a mass reveal, but in a sense this one almost developed organically - not out of any like designed plan. So I guess I feel less bad.

And really - the wolves shouldn't be upset or frustrated that much. It's just a game. I've had games where I've gotten screwed as a wolf. I yelled...maybe punched a wall...drank a beer...watched some porn and i was over it.

That's the breaks. It's not a commentary on their abilities at all.

[DaddyTorgo]

and like others have said - the number of those who are "uncleared" is fairly low anyways - the 2 wolves have a very small subset they're shooting at anyways if they want to hit the unrevealed folk.

[DaddyTorgo]

for now

VOTE ABE

[RendeR]

I have to leave for the night soon, so lets figure out wtf we're doing and get it done already =)

[Danny]

It's dangerous if you leave Render because if someone fake reveals your role, you are not here to dispute it.

[Barkeep49]

I'm with hoops.

I think we as players play the game the hardest we can. If that involves mass reveals, so be it. It's the job of the person designing the game to think of that in the design phase.

[Danny]

I have a mid term today, so I will be leaving soon myself and won't be back until after deadline. I'd be cautious of someone revealing really late not giving others a chance to counter it.