OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[ISiddiqui]

I think you underestimate people. I knew a ton of folks who said the Hell with Robert Jordan and meant it.

[terpkristin]

I'm all about giving authors time to finish their works the way that they want to, but I really have gotten frustrated with Martin. I have no problem with him working on other things, going to cons (ok, I have a little bit of an issue with him going to cons but not enough to stir up anything), and trying to make ADWD the best it can be. But he is a bit of a tease, telling us when ASOS was released that ADWD was more or less done, and now it's been...3.5 years?

What really gets me, though, is how he gets pissy about sports and then says he doesn't think he can write all week owing to how pissy he is about his stupid Jets and Giants. It's a fucking game.

/tk

[Poli]

It is not. It's much more important than life, TK.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

I'm all about giving authors time to finish their works the way that they want to, but I really have gotten frustrated with Martin. I have no problem with him working on other things, going to cons (ok, I have a little bit of an issue with him going to cons but not enough to stir up anything), and trying to make ADWD the best it can be. But he is a bit of a tease, telling us when ASOS was released that ADWD was more or less done, and now it's been...3.5 years?

What really gets me, though, is how he gets pissy about sports and then says he doesn't think he can write all week owing to how pissy he is about his stupid Jets and Giants. It's a fucking game.

/tk

seriously. the rest of us get up the day after and go to work.

[ISiddiqui]

I will say that though that I'm happy I'll probably get a Kindle 2.0 before Dance with Dragons comes out, so I'll only have to spend $9.99 on the book. Otherwise, I guess I could have waited until it came out on paperback.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think you underestimate people. I knew a ton of folks who said the Hell with Robert Jordan and meant it.

Check their closets for books 7-11. Yeah, people have been slagging his work publicly since he started padding in the second trilogy. But the backlist sales are still forces to be reckoned with, the per-book dropoff is actually lower than industry average, and A Memory of Light is still on track to be the biggest adult fantasy book release of 2009, even if Dance of Dragons ships. There'll be all sorts of folks who come back to the series after Sanderson's book hits because the story is finally done. Plus, quite frankly, GRRM has Internet cachet, but the shelf space Jordan's books take up lure new readers in better.

There's always some anticipated dropoff in book sales from title to title - but that's from apathy, not pissiness. People who are MAD their book isn't out yet? They'll be back. It's the ones who are apathetic about the situation that will move on. Like Anne Rice's readers.

[ISiddiqui]

Anger does kinda lead to apathy over time.

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I will say that though that I'm happy I'll probably get a Kindle 2.0 before Dance with Dragons comes out, so I'll only have to spend $9.99 on the book. Otherwise, I guess I could have waited until it came out on paperback.

Are Martin's books available on the Kindle? I noticed that Jordan's aren't. I was going to look into Goodkind, too.

/tk

[ISiddiqui]

Yep. Martin's are.

[Chief Rum]

I don't think I would be half as annoyed at Martin if he didn't keep promising and failing to meet his own self-imposed deadlines. Take forever, if you want. But don't tell me something should be out by a certain time, get me excited waiting for it, and then not even come close to delivering.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i get fuckin ANXIOUS everytime someone bumps this thread. Not in a good way either.

Winter is Coming

[flounder]

I think Scalzi makes a good point, but there is an implied covenant between the author of a multi-book series and his fans. We buy 7 (or 9 or 32) different books because we think that all of that money is worth it to allow the author to escape the constraints of a single volume. However, we also trust that at some point the author will actually give us an ending.

If Martin published a single volume book that just stopped right in the middle and then justified it by saying "I lost interest", no one would be defending him. By that logic, aren't we justified in saying that after buying 4 books we deserve to have an ending to the series?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think I would be half as annoyed at Martin if he didn't keep promising and failing to meet his own self-imposed deadlines. Take forever, if you want. But don't tell me something should be out by a certain time, get me excited waiting for it, and then not even come close to delivering.

Bingo. After all, no one defends cockteases.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think I would be half as annoyed at Martin if he didn't keep promising and failing to meet his own self-imposed deadlines. Take forever, if you want. But don't tell me something should be out by a certain time, get me excited waiting for it, and then not even come close to delivering.

Did he actually make "promises" and set release dates? Or did he just say, "I hope to have this finished this summer"? I sounded like people were freaking out about the latter, but I might have missed something.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

Did he actually make "promises" and set release dates? Or did he just say, "I hope to have this finished this summer"? I sounded like people were freaking out about the latter, but I might have missed something.

One doesn't need to say "promise" to be someone who is essentially saying he will do something by a certain time. Waiting for the word is merely pedantic semantics.

It's also not unreasonable to hold a man to what he says he's planning to do, and if he doesn't follow up on it, to criticize him for that. At first, such criticism is, and should be soft. After all, it's not like there's a contract between writer and fans. But with every broken covenant seems to come a new covenant, which is then broken, only to be followed by another.

If GRRM were a man who stood by the things he says, he would get this done, or he would have not said them in the first place. Since he does not, I have every right to disrespect how he has handled this.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by flounder

I think Scalzi makes a good point, but there is an implied covenant between the author of a multi-book series and his fans. We buy 7 (or 9 or 32) different books because we think that all of that money is worth it to allow the author to escape the constraints of a single volume. However, we also trust that at some point the author will actually give us an ending.

If Martin published a single volume book that just stopped right in the middle and then justified it by saying "I lost interest", no one would be defending him. By that logic, aren't we justified in saying that after buying 4 books we deserve to have an ending to the series?

No you don't. You buy all those books because you like the words inside them. There are 7 or 9 or 32 of those books because you like the words inside them so much that you want more stories about them. And if the words inside are really good, then even when the stories end, you get pissy about it until you get MORE stories about them. (see Holmes, Sherlock.)

You certainly wouldn't accept the justification that after writing an ending for the series that an author like GRRM "deserves" to have everyone that read the first four pony up the cash for the final one, right? You'd make excuses like "I'll read it if it's good" even though you thought the preceding 3000 pages were brilliant, or "I'll see if I can afford it" or "I'll pick it up used" because you want to part with as little of your hard-earned cash as possible for his work, or "You took too long" as though two years between installments is hunky dory, but four years is burdensome.

There's no covenant; there's no obligation. The entire relationship is pay-as-you-go. Hell, the only one who puts their money on the line before the damn book ships at this point is me, so I don't know what you're so riled up about.

[ISiddiqui]

Yep, they aren't dumb to set release dates and wiz by them. Instead strongly insinuating a book will released on a date is bad enough.

To wit, I pulled my copy of "A Feast for Crows" from my bookshelf. On the last page of the story ("Meanwhile, Back On the Wall"):

Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Stannis, Melisandre, Davos Seaworth, and all the rest of the characters you love or love to hate will be along next year (I devoutly hope) in A Dance With Dragons, which will focus on events along the Wall and across the sea, just as the present book focused on King's Landing

That was in June 2005, after Martin said he had basically written an entire book about the other characters, but the combined would be too long and thus would have needed a "To Be Continued". He gave the impression that basically all that needed to be done was a small bit of editing and then the second book would be released a year from the present one to give some space between the two.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

No you don't. You buy all those books because you like the words inside them. There are 7 or 9 or 32 of those books because you like the words inside them so much that you want more stories about them. And if the words inside are really good, then even when the stories end, you get pissy about it until you get MORE stories about them. (see Holmes, Sherlock.)

You certainly wouldn't accept the justification that after writing an ending for the series that an author like GRRM "deserves" to have everyone that read the first four pony up the cash for the final one, right? You'd make excuses like "I'll read it if it's good" even though you thought the preceding 3000 pages were brilliant, or "I'll see if I can afford it" or "I'll pick it up used" because you want to part with as little of your hard-earned cash as possible for his work, or "You took too long" as though two years between installments is hunky dory, but four years is burdensome.

There's no covenant; there's no obligation. The entire relationship is pay-as-you-go. Hell, the only one who puts their money on the line before the damn book ships at this point is me, so I don't know what you're so riled up about.

I guess it depends whether you see the series as one long story or as a series of self-contained books. I would certainly agree with you if each book stood on its own. No one gets pissed at Tolkien because he never finished the Silmarillion. I just see it as one long story. We've shelled out for the first part of the story. I think we deserve an ending.

Obviously Martin is free just to tell us that he's never finishing the series and that we can all pack sand. I just don't think that would be the classy thing to do.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

seriously. the rest of us get up the day after and go to work.

Yeah, but we don't get anything done, we're there just to get paid.

[DaddyTorgo]

*bump*

OH MY GOD. The Westeros mod for Medieval II: Total War is fucking awesome. It's only a beta version, but hot damn yes!!!!

It's definitely going to hold me over until Third Age: Total War (Tolkien mod) is done

[RendeR]

No one has ever said Martin was a class-act. He's got more detractors than supporters out there.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No one has ever said Martin was a class-act.

I think he's a class-act.

[DaddyTorgo]

Hahaha - found this on a facebook group for the series and thought it was amusing!

[WSUCougar]

He's running out of Starks!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

He's running out of Starks!

Yes - well he can always invent some new bastards or distant relations to kill off

[WSUCougar]

The Red Wedding still ranks as the most pissed off I've ever been at a fiction book.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

The Red Wedding still ranks as the most pissed off I've ever been at a fiction book.

yeah...seriously. that was some ballsy writing. hell of a hard decision to make. i remember like...wanting to throw the book across the room and scream at that point. Like "okay...you just spent all these hundreds and hundreds of pages building up your main character, and now this?" Because in any "normal" fantasy series, Robb is your main character for the whole thing and it's all about his journey and all. GRRM just totally disregarded that though. And it was...great. In some sense you could probably argue that it was a huge paradigm shift. It was to fantasy-writing what the first 20 seconds of "Smells Like Teen Spirit" were to the music business. Or you could argue that...if you were a fan of making those grandiose statements.

i actually just started rereading the whole series - figured it was about time for another go-through, as particularly with the earlier books it's been a couple years. looking forward to re experiencing some of the things i sped through or half-forgot last time.

[Fidatelo]

Since the end of the first book, I've always assumed Bran is the important Stark. I could be wrong, I think it would be funny if Sansa somehow ends up as the main piece, but my gut has said Bran.

[chesapeake]

I'm tempted to start asking a bunch of questions about when the book is coming out, now. I've always found the Starks to be far less interesting than the Lannisters. Other than the incest angle, which is just vile.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Since the end of the first book, I've always assumed Bran is the important Stark. I could be wrong, I think it would be funny if Sansa somehow ends up as the main piece, but my gut has said Bran.

I agree with you, but I think in your "traditional" fantasy novel Robb would be your main character

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I'm tempted to start asking a bunch of questions about when the book is coming out, now. I've always found the Starks to be far less interesting than the Lannisters. Other than the incest angle, which is just vile.

Lannisters? Filthy, vile, incestuous, patricidal, turncoat Lannisters? At least give me House Martell or House Tyrell. Hell, even the Arryn's of the Vale, Wardens of the East. But no, you pick the Lannisters?

Then again, I guess you can't say they aren't "interesting."

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Since the end of the first book, I've always assumed Bran is the important Stark. I could be wrong, I think it would be funny if Sansa somehow ends up as the main piece, but my gut has said Bran.

Quite right. Bran's beginnings seemed far more, how shall I say, humble than his older brother.

Don't worry, Sansa will get her central arc as well, especially after learning the craft of politics from Littlefinger.

[path12]

Originally Posted by path12

I'm about halfway through the third book (Storm of Swords?). Had to put it down because I was just getting tired of the whole Ser and lady mother and the "new/old" chivalry stuff -- or it might also have been that the Bran and Catelyn threads were really not doing much for me.

I'll get back to it (this happens to me in many series) but I'm also wondering if it's worth the payoff. I would really like to find out what happens with Dany and Tyrion though.....

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wow.... Storm of Swords is one of the best books I've ever read in the fantasy genre. At least finish that!

So......I started reading Storm of Swords again and what do I get??

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

The Red Wedding still ranks as the most pissed off I've ever been at a fiction book.

I thought that was so, so awesome and is emblematic of one of the things I do love about this series. The second half of this book really delivers. I'm glad I picked it back up.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Lannisters? Filthy, vile, incestuous, patricidal, turncoat Lannisters? At least give me House Martell or House Tyrell. Hell, even the Arryn's of the Vale, Wardens of the East. But no, you pick the Lannisters?

Then again, I guess you can't say they aren't "interesting."

The most dramatic character arcs belong to Jaime and Tyrion, in my judgment. You forgot "regicidal."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

The most dramatic character arcs belong to Jaime and Tyrion, in my judgment. You forgot "regicidal."

oh i agree about Jaime and Tyrion - and i was sort of lumping regicidal in with turncoat, but you're right i suppose that could be broken out on it's own

Dany & Jon & Arya (for all that everyone dislikes her) have also had massively dramatic character arcs.

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Dany & Jon & Arya (for all that everyone dislikes her) have also had massively dramatic character arcs.

People dislike Arya? I quite like her. I guess there is something that happens I haven't got to yet......

Spoiler

she just left Sandor where I'm at in her arc.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by path12

People dislike Arya? I quite like her. I guess there is something that happens I haven't got to yet......

Spoiler

she just left Sandor where I'm at in her arc.

I dunno if "dislike" is the right word. I think there's a prevailing feeling out there in the land of readers that are sort of...i dunno...for lack of a better word, sick of her maybe? People feel like the stuff that is happening to her is just way unrealistic or something. Might also be because her POV starts to more significantly diverge from the main storyline and maybe it interrupts people's "flow".

I dunno - I don't have a problem with the Arya POV as much as I do with some of the others. I hope that doesn't really give anything for you. I toyed with putting a spoiler tag on it, but it doesn't really tell you much.

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I dunno if "dislike" is the right word. I think there's a prevailing feeling out there in the land of readers that are sort of...i dunno...for lack of a better word, sick of her maybe? People feel like the stuff that is happening to her is just way unrealistic or something. Might also be because her POV starts to more significantly diverge from the main storyline and maybe it interrupts people's "flow".

I dunno - I don't have a problem with the Arya POV as much as I do with some of the others. I hope that doesn't really give anything for you. I toyed with putting a spoiler tag on it, but it doesn't really tell you much.

Naw, I'm not worried about getting spoilered in a series with so many different characters.

As I progress though I understand the concern about how in the hell he's going to wrap all these threads up. I'm almost at the end of Storm of Swords (page 1000 or so) and just off the top of my head can think of nine or ten fairly major story arcs going on right now, only a few of which I can guess how they will intersect.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I dunno if "dislike" is the right word. I think there's a prevailing feeling out there in the land of readers that are sort of...i dunno...for lack of a better word, sick of her maybe? People feel like the stuff that is happening to her is just way unrealistic or something. Might also be because her POV starts to more significantly diverge from the main storyline and maybe it interrupts people's "flow".

I dunno - I don't have a problem with the Arya POV as much as I do with some of the others. I hope that doesn't really give anything for you. I toyed with putting a spoiler tag on it, but it doesn't really tell you much.

I've never heard of this dislike for Arya. I always thought that she was one of the POV's people liked the most. I know there's a ton of hate out there for Sansa, Catelyn, and Cersei... But Arya? Huh.

I've always enjoyed Arya's chapters, even in Feast where she starts to veer off a bit from what's going on in Westeros...

Spoiler

But Martin has been setting up the whole Arya as "Faceless Man" thing for a while, even before she met Jaqen Hagar. Her constant adoption of different identities (Arry, Weasle, Arya, Salty, etc.) and fascination with killing people have constant themes for the character. Her time with the Hound was classic.

I think the biggest problem facing Martin (and I don't think this is unique to Arya really) is how to make her relevant. Sure, making her a "Faceless Man" is a super cool idea, but to make it at all realistic it would take years and years.

I think he's in a similar boat with Tyrion.

Spoiler

Tyrion is super clever, but, really, the only thing that made him what he was was beinng a Lannister, which, for all intents and purposes, he's not anymore.

Martin's written himself into quite a few corners it seems.

[ISiddiqui]

Dislike of Sansa's chapters? But that's where Littlefinger does his thing!@

Littlefinger be teh awesome.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Dislike of Sansa's chapters? But that's where Littlefinger does his thing!@

Littlefinger be teh awesome.

People mainly dislike Sansa. Poor, Sansa.

Actually, if I had to pick one character's chapters most people dislike, it would probably be Bran's.

I am not sure if there's one I don't like. I guess I found Brianne's slightly dull. It was sort of more of the same from the earlier Arya chapters "war ravages the land, the smallfolk are the ones that suffer" and, as far as perspectives go, she's not terribly interesting. She doesn't have that complex of a take on the world or events. Not like, say, Cersei, Tyrion, or Jamie, for example.

[DaddyTorgo]

brianne's are pretty dull yeah

i actually like sansa and the whole littlefinger thing a lot

[terpkristin]

Weird.
I always loved Ayra, she's one of my favorite characters. And I never pegged Robb to be a central character, always figured this was really a story about Jon Snow and Dany. I do love the development of Bran, though.

/tk

[RendeR]

Of all the characters I admire I think I have to say I respect Stannis the most. I don't LIKE the man at all, he reminds me too much of...well...people I dislike but the man BELIEVES in a thing and he follows it steadfastly.

His earnestness and his steadfast belief that he is in the right and true path of things is admirable.

He's still a schmuck though.

*shrugs*

[Schmidty]

I'm finally reading the series. I finished a Game of Thrones and am about 200 pages into a Clash of Kings, and I will say that although I am entertained, I can't say I LOVE the series so far. There are two main reasons:

Spoiler

1. It's depressing. For every good thing that happens, two shitty things happens. Yeah, yeah it's "real" fantasy, but it's like a cock-tease that goes nowhere.

2. FUCKING ROMANCE NOVEL SHIT!!!!!!! This is my biggest gripe. I don't mind romance, but I DO NOT want to read about a dude's glistening manhood throbbing and reflecting in the moonlight after hammering a 13 year-old girl. I also don't want to read the word "cunt" in my fantasy novel. I know that it's a societal thing with words like that, but it still irritates. For this reason, I dreaded seeing chapters about Dany in the first book. I like Tyrion, but I also skimmed his parts when he was humping that whore. The author is very good, but he uses cheap-ass romance novel tripe way too much. It's like his "look how real I am" crutch. It really turns me off. He should be better than that.

Anyway, I'm going to see this series through. I really hope it gets better though.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm finally reading the series. I finished a Game of Thrones and am about 200 pages into a Clash of Kings, and I will say that although I am entertained, I can't say I LOVE the series so far. There are two main reasons:

Spoiler

1. It's depressing. For every good thing that happens, two shitty things happens. Yeah, yeah it's "real" fantasy, but it's like a cock-tease that goes nowhere.

2. FUCKING ROMANCE NOVEL SHIT!!!!!!! This is my biggest gripe. I don't mind romance, but I DO NOT want to read about a dude's glistening manhood throbbing and reflecting in the moonlight after hammering a 13 year-old girl. I also don't want to read the word "cunt" in my fantasy novel. I know that it's a societal thing with words like that, but it still irritates. For this reason, I dreaded seeing chapters about Dany in the first book. I like Tyrion, but I also skimmed his parts when he was humping that whore. The author is very good, but he uses cheap-ass romance novel tripe way too much. It's like his "look how real I am" crutch. It really turns me off. He should be better than that.

Anyway, I'm going to see this series through. I really hope it gets better though.

if anything #1 gets worse.

#2 - i agree to a point. it's that squirmy-uncomfortableness

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

if anything #1 gets worse.

Damn. What's the motivation to read the rest of the series then? I don't want to hear "because it's well-written and realistic fantasy". You can do those two things without being so......unfulfiling.

[ISiddiqui]

Btw, #1 is why I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the series. Different strokes I guess.

#2 doesn't bother me in the slightest really.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Btw, #1 is why I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the series. Different strokes I guess.

#2 doesn't bother me in the slightest really.

oh #1 is why I love it too.

#2 doesn't BOTHER me really, but i mean...there are times where it's kind of jarring

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

oh #1 is why I love it too.

#2 doesn't BOTHER me really, but i mean...there are times where it's kind of jarring

Yeah, I love #1.

As for #2, it doesn't really bother me too much. Sometimes it's a bit much. The little lesbian scenes with Dany and Cersei, in particular, though brief, just seemed surperfluous and more Skinemax fare than anything else.

I don't mind when it involves Tyrion. His lust for whores is a pretty important aspect of the character.