Werewolf XV: Round 'Em Up And Hang 'Em!

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I can't imagine it would be multiple times. That would be pretty damn powerful.

Thats what I was thinking, so losing the witness is no big deal.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Dubb's post was very creative (adding knife and shadows). Something a bad guy would do to save his hide.

Equally something a good guy might do to "role play" the reveal -- I've done it myself in the past. I hesitate to reach any conclusions about who is right or wrong here.

[jeff061]

I am leaning towards voting for Saldana, but I'm giving time for him to say his piece.

[dubb93]

My post was creative b/c I used the same words that were in the PM from Neon. Give him the credit for the words, not me.

[jeff061]

With that in mind, I see Neon saying that someone entered the house and fled, rather than sitting in the yard and running away.

[dubb93]

I can't imagine it would be multiple times. That would be pretty damn powerful.

Well since it says nowhere that it is a 1 time power, and I posted that I thought I could use it multiple times and Neon made a post after that and didn't make mention of it I have to assume I can use it multiple times.

[hoopsguy]

I'll be pretty happy if we only have three outlaws, but it would not surprise me in the least if there were four from the start. So make that ratio 9-4. Now the question becomes is how does RealDeal play in this, given that he is in lockup? Would he count in terms of defending against the outlaws in a one/one setup? So if it becomes 5-4 is the score really 4-4-1 and the game is over?

After taking a longer look at this I'm happy to stand corrected on the game being over tonight. Which makes me a little less suspicious of an attempted power-play by the outlaws coming out with a fake reveal. That steers me towards trusting Saldana over Dubb, although I'm still not at all certain here.

In fact, if the witness is a one-time only protect then we really don't have any overwhelming need to protect him versus anyone else tonight. I guess he would still have value to the outlaws as a known villager, which makes the voting patterns a little bit easier. But the same has been true of Bek from the get-go and he is still around. Not sure why one of them would be any more attractive than the other for the outlaws to gun for this evening.

I think our biggest asset right now is that the outlaws do not seem to have any information on who the sheriff is. I'm hoping that is the case even after he has been able to successfully defend.

Also, anyone have any ideas why we heard shots last night but not on the other night that the outlaws did not get a kill?

[jeff061]

Yeah I see it doesn't say that, but two guarenteed ID's? I can't see that being allowed.

[jeff061]

It's not a powerplay though hoops. Its the only choice they have to discount a witness they know saw them. The odds don't really matter.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Which makes me a little less suspicious of an attempted power-play by the outlaws coming out with a fake reveal. That steers me towards trusting Saldana over Dubb, although I'm still not at all certain here.

Yea, if I were an outlaw and I'm not I would do the same thing Saldana did. He logged on, saw that he was witnessed trying to kill RPI-Fan last night and that I hadn't posted about it yet. He had no choice but to power-play. Otherwise he goes to work, I get off work and post what I saw and he dies easily tonight.

This way he gets a chance to kill me off tonight, kill someone else tonight and then die tomorrow. That is a HUGE difference. DO NOT WASTE A VOTE ON ME. SALDANA IS THE FREAKIN OUTLAW. All you guys have is that you were suspecious of me for no reason and jumped the gun sending in 3 votes for me b/f any new evidence was presented. Then when the evidence came in and the outlaw supported your vote from WAY too early you lynch the witness.

[Passacaglia]

It doesn't seem like the witness is a one-and-done, thing. It seems like the witness can do it every night, which means we need to be really sure we get the right one here.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by dubb93

As for Saldana's fake reveal. He had no choice. I assume he got a similar PM to the one I got last night. That his kill failed and that I spotted him on his way out. He looked around the thread, saw I hadn't been on yet and figured he could atleast give it a shot. Hell, it probably not only saves him, but then people the rest of the game as I have seen no indication my role is a 1 time use and Neon has been on today and didn't correct my thinking.

talk about the pot calling the kettle black. i witnessed you going to RPI's, and knew that as soon as i got on today, you would have said you saw ME going in because you are caught. dead to rights.

as far as your multi-use ability, sure, make up a concept that gives you continuing value to try to sway the vote away from yourself. honestly, i am surprised that anyone that has played other WW games didnt see through this ploy as well.. when has the witness ever been a multi use role?!...you are just grabbing at straws because you have no other outs.

all i can say is that Dubb was a suspect way before last night...he was almost lynched yesterday. to the people that have voted for me at this point i ask you this: after the amount of suspicion there was on dubb prior to this morning, what basis do you have to believe him now. the only thing questionable i have done to this point in this game is vote for Bek after he killed our seer. a move i quickly changed and apologized for. my question to dubb is, why didnt you get pissed at bek and vote for him too? imo, that is exactly what an angry VILLAGER would have done, because our chances of winning were seriously decreased because of that.

as far as for using my role last night...i thought it was the opportune moment, we NEED to get an outlaw today, and i was doing what i have done in every game i have played to this point...protecting the village. i said i was a villager when we started, and i will say it again now.

i am not gonna rant and rave, because i am not desperate to get the view off me. if you do kill me tonight, then you will know i was telling the truth from the beginning, and dubb will follow me to the grave tommorow.

[Passacaglia]

Looking at the events that happened shortly after night actions finished, it seems fishy that there were already votes for dubb before saldana stepped up -- just to help make sure dubb was the prime target before the controversy even arose. I'm leaning toward believing dubb, and we need to protect him over the night.

VOTE SALDANA

[jeff061]

Don't buy it.

Vote Saldana

Of course this is where you wish you had a Werewolf behavioral matrix from all previous games . No matter the outcome, a mental note's been made.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Don't buy it.

Vote Saldana

Of course this is where you wish you had a Werewolf behavioral matrix from all previous games . No matter the outcome, a mental note's been made.

Oy -- maybe I only feel this way because I'm a Werewolf newb, but it seems like this game should be independent of everything -- past games, real life, hattrick, etc. Of course, I can understand why that never happens!

[jeff061]

Of course it should, but different people act different ways, you can't just forget about it.

[Schmidty]

Man, I have so much to catch up on, yet again.....

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Oy -- maybe I only feel this way because I'm a Werewolf newb, but it seems like this game should be independent of everything -- past games, real life, hattrick, etc. Of course, I can understand why that never happens!

I dislike when personal stuff happens, but previous gameplay definitely carries over (in terms of assessing people), and whatever issues there might be with it from a roleplaying standpoint, it's pretty much impossible to prevent.

[jeff061]

Well I wasn't talking about personal stuff, I meant more along the lines of being able to tell when they are telling the truth vrs lying.

[hoopsguy]

Yep, I happen to agree with Jeff that you do tend to get a read on people that you have participated with in past games.

I'm going to Vote Dubb at this point, partly because of this reason. And hope that my read is right. But another part of it, to be honest, is that I don't have much of a feel for Saldana to help me determine good/bad intent.

[jeff061]

Saldana's post seems forced to me. And Dubb's description of what happened last night seems more in line with what I would expect. I don't think timing matters at all, both of them would of posted this whenever they got on.

Just so people know what I was thinking in case I'm wrong . Nothing solid, just a feel.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Saldana's post seems forced to me. And Dubb's description of what happened last night seems more in line with what I would expect. I don't think timing matters at all, both of them would of posted this whenever they got on.

Exactly. Saldana's post is forced. If I was an angry villager why would I vote Bek? What exactly did he do that was so wrong? It was a bandwagon, is he talking about the next night? Why would I vote for a guy that is an obvious villager on night 2?

Anyway you take it Saldana is playing the hand he was dealt. He is an outted outlaw. A vote for me is a very big mistake. Saldana seems to forget he was public enemy number 2, while everyone seemed to suspect me as #1. I'm willing to admit I had votes on me b/f any evidence, that I was being suspected hard(couldn't tell you why tho), but Saldana seems to forgetting he was being mentioned in the same sentence as me.

OOC: Off to lift weights, be back on later tonight. Make the right choice guys.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Saldana's post seems forced to me. And Dubb's description of what happened last night seems more in line with what I would expect. I don't think timing matters at all, both of them would of posted this whenever they got on.

Just so people know what I was thinking in case I'm wrong . Nothing solid, just a feel.

what about what i had to say was forced? i can scream and rant like dubb if you want, but what would the point be, you all are gonna decide who you think is telling the truth based on what you know of us. we were suspicious of dubb before, and his actions, as witnessed by me, confirmed that..just because he threw stuff in about a knife? big deal, they shot ardent in the face, so how is his knife statement damning? i would like to know what you are basing your feel on with me, i havent said anything or done anything in this game that wasnt in the village's best interests (at least not that a bunch of others havent done as well....sorry henry)

[jeff061]

It's not the knife and it's not the lack of screaming on your part. I also wonder if the witness would come out if his target already had 4 votes on him. That's less definitive, just a thought.

Anything that happened before today is nothing, I've had suspicion thrown on me to.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I'm willing to admit I had votes on me b/f any evidence

and exactly what evidence was there against me. there was alot of suspicion being tossed around yesterday, some of it was at me, i have never pretended any different, but no one actually said "i think saldana is an outlaw", like they did for you.

[jeff061]

And me, and Blade, and Ardent.

Now, I'm not really sure either way, but lets keep things in perspective. I don't like Dubb agreeing with me though .

[jeff061]

Oh and Hoops is always right about this shit .

Edit: That's another point, brought up by Dubb, he did try to get input on when the Witness role should be used just after Sack's death. Coincidence?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by jeff061

It's not the knife and it's not the lack of screaming on your part. I also wonder if the witness would come out if his target already had 4 votes on him. That's less definitive, just a thought.

and what would you have thought if dubb logged on this morning with 4 votes already against him and said that he witnessed me...you would have thought he was desperate to clear himself, which is exactly what he is now.

I outed myself because i wanted to prevent that from happening. i also acted under the assumption that my role was a once and done ability...i have nothing from NC that gives me reason to believe otherwise, so why would i have evidence against someone and not use it. that doesnt make a lot of sense to me. so far Dubb has given nothing to prove that i am lying. but if you want to believe him, go right ahead

and what would you have said if i came out later in the day, after dubb had already tried to save his ass by lying about seeing me? you would have said that I was the liar...so basically, you have me in a no win scenario.

[jeff061]

Neither of you have given anything to prove each others lying or this would be easy.

It's the little things. It's believing that Neon would of had the Outlaw enter the house and run out, it's the fact Dubb asked about the witness very early on, it's the tone(not volume) of your first post. No its not proof, but it's enough of a slant for me to make a choice.

And like I said, the 4 vote thing is an afterthought, I'm not really considering it.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Neither of you have given anything to prove each others lying or this would be easy.

It's the little things. It's believing that Neon would of had the Outlaw enter the house and run out, it's the fact Dubb asked about the witness very early on, it's the tone(not volume) of your first post. No its not proof, but it's enough of a slant for me to make a choice.

And like I said, the 4 vote thing is an afterthought, I'm not really considering it.

fine, to me, after the seer and the baron were out of the game the first night, and the judge went to jail, i thought it best to NOT give any hints about my role, so the outlaws would ignore me....giving hints about your powers and making yourself a target is not a strategy i would use, much less give someone credit for using, especially in the position we were in at that point...hiding and saving yourself versus making it obvious who you are and painting a target on yourself so you cant help the team.

[jeff061]

Those weren't hints, I don't know how anyone could interpret them as such. That was someone asking for advice on how to use his power, without letting anyone know who he was. Seems like a decent enough idea to me. I don't think he expected those comments to be used in this form.

[Fouts]

jeff, I can't tell if it's you or dubb under the gun right now.

[Fouts]

jeff, as a villager, you should be happy with a 1 for 1. I don't get it

[jeff061]

Yeah I know, but the more I think about it the more confident I get . Saldana's arguments are either irrelevant or don't make sense.

Originally Posted by Fouts

jeff, as a villager, you should be happy with a 1 for 1. I don't get it

What do you mean? I'm happier with a 1 for 0.

[Fouts]

They make sense to me. In fact, both sides do. I can see where each of them are coming from, but you are confusing me.

[jeff061]

but you are confusing me

And you me.

[dubb93]

I'm going to come right out and say it since I'm leaving for the night. Saldana is lying and after you kill me tonight and him tomorrow go for Fouts. He has done nothing right this game and is so for killing me and doing a 1 for 1(which is only good for the outlaws as it lowers the villagers numbers by 2 b/f we kill an outlaw) that he has to be in line with Saldana.

Jeff, I really mean this, stick to your vote. Remember what I said in the PM's when I duked you? I was honest and straight forward with my reasons and apologized, and just like that I give you my word that I am the witness. I swear on anything you want to, Saldana is the one not telling the truth, I don't know how I can be any more blunt. We need to win this game guys, this MAY be my last time online b/f the deadline as I'm heading out for a poker party, don't let my work hours influence this vote(IE Saldana being able to post b/f I could).

[saldana]

Originally Posted by dubb93

don't let my work hours influence this vote(IE Saldana being able to post b/f I could).

you are the one asking for your work hours TO influence the vote by saying people shouldnt believe me because i was first...how many ways do you want it, because right now you are asking for both. my work hours forced me to post early this morning, yours prevented you from doing that...not my fault.

[Fouts]

Originally Posted by dubb93

He has done nothing right this game and is so for killing me and doing a 1 for 1(which is only good for the outlaws as it lowers the villagers numbers by 2 b/f we kill an outlaw) that he has to be in line with Saldana.

Hey, thanks for the compliment. I am not "so for killing" you. I'm for killing both of you, because we have a guarantee of finding an outlaw. That is all, nothing personal.

[hoopsguy]

Oh and Hoops is always right about this shit .

I miss my share, just like everyone in these games. But I spend enough time obsessing over the games that I am right once in awhile. Like my first werewolf accusation, when I came into the creature game and accused you out of the gate

I wish I had a little better feel for this game - but it is damn hard reading anything out of the votes up to this point. I'm at least glad that this one is being contested and forcing people to stake out positions with something on the line. Hope we can get that 1-0 scenario.

[saldana]

i am pretty surprised that no one else seems to notice that dubb is trying to manipulate facts to his advantage...the "i can use my power multiple times" gimmick is ridiculous, and has no support.

he wants you all to doubt me because i have to leave early for work, but not hold it against him that he didnt post until later

his supporter jeff doesnt think i should be able to bring into play the fact that i have never lied in a werewolf game, but apparently his prior game's activity with dubb are admissible

and his "i asked questions about when the witness should use their role" looks more to me like he was trying to suggest that the witness does something early, thus depriving us (the villagers) of yet another of our tools.

all i see from dubb is alot of double speak and double standards. i have been straight up since the first post.

[Fouts]

I gotta run for a bit. Just want to state I am not pro-saldana, or pro-dubb. I am for killing both to get an outlaw. As a villager, it is worth it for me. I think the witness would agree with that. He knows by outing himself he is signing his death warrant.

[jeff061]

Everyone lies in Werewolf games Saldana, if you haven't you will.
Dubb, bringing up the duking is not a way to convince me .

In any case, I'd like to see someone back Saldana, I'm having problems finding a reason to, so hopefully someone else can. I don't want to bandwagon on him or I wouldn't of waited for him to say his piece.

his supporter jeff doesnt think i should be able to bring into play the fact that i have never lied in a werewolf game, but apparently his prior game's activity with dubb are admissible

Dubb talking about the witness role early in the game directly effects this. People being suspicious of him without a good reason does not.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Fouts

I gotta run for a bit. Just want to state I am not pro-saldana, or pro-dubb. I am for killing both to get an outlaw. As a villager, it is worth it for me. I think the witness would agree with that. He knows by outing himself he is signing his death warrant.

and getting an outlaw is what i said earlier is the most important thing for us today, that is what i have tried to guarantee by outing myself, and not giving dubb a chance to lie his way out of the noose.


and for those of you that are buying the whole "i can use my powers twice" bit, that idea was conveniently brought up by Dubb's Champion, Jeff in post 461, 18 minutes before Dubb posted his retaliatory accusation of me, and then started expounding upon his value.

[jeff061]

Maybe you should look before me, I didn't come up with the idea. I forget who did.

[jeff061]

And maybe you should mention that I believed you and voted for Dubb initially. If I'm wrong it's got nothing to do with loyalties.

[jeff061]

I see now, you mis-read my post 461, which was in support of you.

At the time I didn't know outlaws were told of the witness. I said if you were lying the witness would speak up, and since he hadn't used his power yet he could tonight. I didn't know at the time the outlaws were notified when the witness used his power.

[dubb93]

Ight, poker party got pushed back about 30 minutes so I got some more time...

Dubb, bringing up the duking is not a way to convince me

No, maybe not, but that was the only other time I've given my word in a game of werewolf, that if I was wrong I would explain my action to you. I was wrong and I did. I once again give you my word that I am the witness.

buying the whole "i can use my powers twice" bit

I'm not sure who brought that up, but I saw it and it kinda clicked that in most werewolf games it says "This is a one time use power." In this game it didn't say that in the game rules or the PM about my role. Prehaps I can use it more than once. I posted that I could before Neon posted that he was moving the deadline back and he didn't comment on it.

I gotta run for a bit. Just want to state I am not pro-saldana, or pro-dubb. I am for killing both to get an outlaw. As a villager, it is worth it for me. I think the witness would agree with that. He knows by outing himself he is signing his death warrant.

I'm willing to give in to the fact that by outting myself I'm not making it to the end, but in no way am I for a one for one. Simply, you lynch me tonight you lose a villager and then you lose a villager to the outlaws tonight, THEN you kill the first outlaw, then they kill someone else, THEN you have a shot at another one. I like it better killing an outlaw tonight, they kill someone, then we have another shot at one someone tomorrow. Makes alot more sense then just killing us both till you get the witness.

and getting an outlaw is what i said earlier is the most important thing for us today

good one outlaw.

[RPI-Fan]

Arghhhhhhhhh... SO TOUGH!

Vote is staying, for now...

[jeff061]

and his "i asked questions about when the witness should use their role" looks more to me like he was trying to suggest that the witness does something early, thus depriving us (the villagers) of yet another of our tools.

That doesn't make any sense.

Going just on Saldana's posts I'm quite confident in my vote.