Werewolf XVIII: To Crown a King (GAME OVER)

[Poli]

[finds wall]
[/finds wall]
[bangs head on wall]
uggggggggggghhhhhh
[/bangs head on wall]

[Poli]

By the way, I've been considerably lucky to be online today at work. 3 computers among 8 of us, and I've pretty much bogarted this one all day.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

[finds wall]
[/finds wall]
[bangs head on wall]
uggggggggggghhhhhh
[/bangs head on wall]

[Bangs head on coffin]
[realiszes hes dead and cant bang head on coffin]
[/bangs head on coffin]

[saldana]

ardent, here is yet another thing i dont get right now. assuming you are telling the truth, we have mathmatical evidence against mcsweeny right now, and no evidence against taz except for you...unless there were only 2 assassins to start the game, we arent winning tonight either way tonight. so unless you are desperate to save mcsweeney, what difference does it make who we lynch tonight (unless we are wrong about mcsweeney, in which case it makes a huge difference to him)

[Schmidty]

I suck at math. Luckily you guys don't:

VOTE MCSWEENY EXCECUTE

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Vince

Ok, I've been convinced that it's McSweeney. Here's the day one points --

We now know that Mr. Wednesday was an assassin, so Blade and Vince get a half point each -- +1 total.

I've deduced that absolutely 0 of the people that voted for Blade were in my faction -- which also happens to be Blade's faction, I believe. Because of this, the only negative modifiers to the score would be the first (Passacaglia, -2) and lynching (Desnudo, -3.5) votes for him. That gives us -5.5.

If McSweeney is an assassin, Dubb gets no points for his vote (because it was to jail, and McSweeney was never put in jail), but everyone else would get half a point, assuming that they are not themselves Assassins. With 4 other votes on him, that's +2 for the good guys.

+1
-5.5
+2
=
-2.5 -- which is what our overall point total was from day one. If we just assume that GWB is not a faction leader, so st. cronin got no points for that vote, and that Ardent Enthusiast is not an assassin, so hoopsguy got no points for that vote, we are absolutely square with our point total.

I'm very confident that McSweeney is an assassin.

there's a whole lot of asuming going on here. you could "assume" anyone is anything to get this numbers to work out the way you want them to. Now we've got a half dozen people who just read the last line and jump on the bandwagon. You'd think there'd be at least a couple others who'd crunch the numbers as well. But you all seem so happy to jump on me after Vince throws a bunch of numbers and assumptions around.

Hey Ardent, i'm listening!

VOTE TAZFTW EXECUTE

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I suck at math. Luckily you guys don't:

VOTE MCSWEENY EXCECUTE

see? exatly what i'm talking about. let's all just take Vince's word for it. Everyone knows that math done once is math done correctly right?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

see? exatly what i'm talking about. let's all just take Vince's word for it. Everyone knows that math done once is math done correctly right?

no...in fact, the math has been corrected several times, but one thing has permeated this game since day one, we think youre an assassin. is that the best thing you can say in your defense...that the math might be faulty? it will take more than that to get me to change my vote

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by saldana

dola, Ardent, i am not ignoring you either, but i am just not sure i believe you at this point. i have had taz firmly in the noble column from the first day, so your "revalation" is a bit of a monkey wrench.

what in the world would Ardent gain from making this up? let's not think about that though, it might screw up your math.

[TazFTW]

Looking over Vince's math.

Vote McSweeny Execute

[Vince]

McSweeney -- for the record, I was pretty sure you were a villager until I tried to figure out Day 1's numbers. If you can find an error, that would go a long way to proving your innocence, and I'd be happy to go with TazFTW...otherwise I'm going to stay where I'm at.

Ardent, etc -- I think it'd be a good idea to stick with TazFTW as your vote -- when the points come out, we can have a better idea of whether or not you are correct, and we can nail him tomorrow. I know it has to be frustrating to have a known assassin (to you) walk free...but we'll get to him.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by saldana

ardent, here is yet another thing i dont get right now. assuming you are telling the truth, we have mathmatical evidence against mcsweeny right now, and no evidence against taz except for you...unless there were only 2 assassins to start the game, we arent winning tonight either way tonight. so unless you are desperate to save mcsweeney, what difference does it make who we lynch tonight (unless we are wrong about mcsweeney, in which case it makes a huge difference to him)

I haven't looked at the evidence against mcsweeny, that's all. Like I said, I'm not defending him. I just have lockdown proof that Taz is an assassin.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I haven't looked at the evidence against mcsweeny, that's all. Like I said, I'm not defending him. I just have lockdown proof that Taz is an assassin.

Evidence against McSweeney, in a nutshell:

I have proof that either Schmidty or McSweeney is an assassin. If we make the assumption that McSweeney is an assassin, the point totals for day one work out flawlessly.

[Vince]

Dola -- the proof that McSweeney or Schmidty is an assassin is mathematical, in the form of calculating the points awarded on Day 2. I'll dig up the post it was in...

Originally Posted by Vince in post # 461

Ok, this might be long -- it's kind of a stream of consciousness post as I deduce these things.

Day 2 is the vote we know the most about, so let's focus there. We are 100% certain that Mr. Wednesday was an Assassin. So we can find out exactly how many points those who voted for him got. I already posted that, but let's put it in writing again, just for fun:

Coffee Warlord -- +3 (First Vote on an Assassin)
st. cronin -- +5 (Lynching Vote on an Assassin)
George W. Bush -- +1
Ardent Enthusiast -- +1
McSweeney -- +1
TazFTW -- +1
Saldana -- +1
Kingfc22 -- +1
Desnudo -- +1
Total: +15

Now, we know that as a group, we totalled +12.5 points for this day's voting...so we have to have lost points somewhere. Initially, I determined that there must have been a penalty for voting for any noble, but Barkeep disabused me of that notion. The new rules show that there is no way to lose points for any vote that didn't result in the player being lynched/jailed (ie, a vote to execute a noble doesn't involve a penalty unless that noble actually gets lynched). Therefore, we cannot lose ANY points for the other five votes from day 2. We need to lose points somewhere, to go from our 15 point gain for killing Mr. Wednesday, to our 12.5 point ACTUAL gain. Therefore, we assume that the assassins who voted for Mr. Wednesday were not awarded points. We know that Coffee Warlord was not an assassin, so his +3 is legit. St. Cronin's +5 isn't a guarantee, but Faction B did gain a whole hell of a lot of points, and I'm pretty sure he's on the up and up. Because of that, I don't think it's a great leap in logic to assume that at least three of the +1 point getting guys in the list up there are assassins, to bring us down to +12 from +15. Note, however, that we still need to get a + .5 somewhere...

RPI-Fan -- Execute -- McSweeney
Passacaglia -- Execute -- RPI-Fan
Raiders Army -- Execute -- Coffee Warlord
Schmidty -- Execute -- RPI-Fan
Vince -- Execute -- Schmidty

This is where the 5 'odd' votes come into play. Here are the possible outcomes for these five votes: Quote:


Since no one voted to jail anyone in this group of five, any point gain resulting from these votes has to implicate an assassin.

Therefore, one (and only one) of the votes in the group of five non-Mr. Wednesday votes was for an assassin. Since this is highly incriminating, let's take a further look.

We know that Coffee Warlord was the Warrior Noble -- therefore Raiders Army could not have earned a half point for his vote. We're down to three suspects -- RPI-Fan, Schmidty and McSweeney.

RPI-Fan received two votes -- if he was an assassin, we are now at +1 point -- we still need our .5 somewhere (and there would have been 4 assassins in the initial group, which is a lot, especially since RPI-Fan would then be the 5th assassin -- and we still need our .5, so 6 assassins total -- quite preposterous). Therefore (I'm getting tired of that word already [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]), one and only one of McSweeney and Schmidty is an assassin.

So I'm going to stop here for a breather, then dive back in with a new post. Here's the main conclusion for now, and my first order of business:

We know either Schmidty or McSweeney is an assassin...which one is it?

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Vince

I have proof that either Schmidty or McSweeney is an assassin. If we make the assumption that McSweeney is an assassin, the point totals for day one work out flawlessly.

Thanks. Much appreciated. We still have to get Taz, though.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Vince

Ardent, etc -- I think it'd be a good idea to stick with TazFTW as your vote -- when the points come out, we can have a better idea of whether or not you are correct, and we can nail him tomorrow. I know it has to be frustrating to have a known assassin (to you) walk free...but we'll get to him.

You're assuming that there will be a tomorrow.

[Poli]

There probably will be for me. What harm can you do to me? I mean, I'm utterly useless now. I've fingered you, but I can't find any other assassins. Killing me is useless for you.

[TazFTW]

Who says I'm talking about people dieing?

I'm talking about Faction B being able to crown their leader king tonight.

[Poli]

As long as it keeps the assassins from winning, I'm all for it.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by PM I recieved

when blade got lynched, you told us he was a noble, when wednesday got hung you told us he was an assassin, but you never told us if either had a secret role but when coffee got whacked you told us that he was the warrior noble., and when hoops and dubb got theirs, you didnt tell us anything at all.

They were both Nobles with no special ability. I failed to make this more explicit.

[Poli]

I will be interested in knowing the faction fallout when this is all over.

[Raiders Army]

This is interesting. I've been away all day, and ardent seems to be talking to himself. That being said, I'll make sure McSweeney dies tonight.

UNVOTE KINGFC22 EXECUTE
VOTE MCSWEENEY EXECUTE

Sucks being away all day.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

You're assuming that there will be a tomorrow.

Well...I don't think there's much to be done at this point about Faction B and their point total. If the Nobles would rather squabble and risk their lives to make sure their faction leader is crowned king, then so be it. Could we even stop Faction B if their members voted in unison?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Vince

Well...I don't think there's much to be done at this point about Faction B and their point total. If the Nobles would rather squabble and risk their lives to make sure their faction leader is crowned king, then so be it. Could we even stop Faction B if their members voted in unison?

I don't think so. I considered saying something as I know who both noble faction leaders are. But I don't see any benefit at all at this point as B has such a huge lead. I can't see how they lose. Unless A and the thiefs all voted the same? Even then, I'm not sure the numbers come out right, and A runs the risk of getting one of their guys killed that night.

Looks like my muff of the Blade vote really killed any chance of a fair match

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Vince

Well...I don't think there's much to be done at this point about Faction B and their point total. If the Nobles would rather squabble and risk their lives to make sure their faction leader is crowned king, then so be it. Could we even stop Faction B if their members voted in unison?

well you could throw them in jail right? isn't that what the whole point of jail is?

[Coffee Warlord]

...

[Vince]

I could...but I still want MY faction to gain points, and I know an assassin. I don't think the risk is worth the reward. Plus, I put even odds on me being the assassins target this evening. I'd like to at least go out with a bang.

Faction B needs 4 points. If they hit on the first vote and the lynching vote, it's game over. If they hit on the lynching vote alone, it's game over. I think it's catch as catch can at this point, and try to take away the big point winners to get your own faction into position to win. I'd rather get my faction points and eliminate a threat to my life in the process than attempt to de-rail someone who's doing us good, and failing to limit the abilities of the assassins.

[Vince]

That post above should read: if they hit on the first vote, and ANY OTHER ASSASSIN VOTE, they win.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Vince

I could...but I still want MY faction to gain points, and I know an assassin. I don't think the risk is worth the reward. Plus, I put even odds on me being the assassins target this evening. I'd like to at least go out with a bang.

Faction B needs 4 points. If they hit on the first vote and the lynching vote, it's game over. If they hit on the lynching vote alone, it's game over. I think it's catch as catch can at this point, and try to take away the big point winners to get your own faction into position to win. I'd rather get my faction points and eliminate a threat to my life in the process than attempt to de-rail someone who's doing us good, and failing to limit the abilities of the assassins.

i do think we underestimated the value of jail though. it seems to me that finding out who is in what faction could be equally as important as finding out who the assasins are

[Vince]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

i do think we underestimated the value of jail though. it seems to me that finding out who is in what faction could be equally as important as finding out who the assasins are

Could be. I'm pretty sure I have a good grip on who is in what faction (my own at least), and I know that I'm doing everything I can to get my faction a win. If there was something else that would help (or you can convince me that doing something different helps my faction's cause), I'd be happy to switch my vote.

[Vince]

I'm off to work now...good luck guys.

[Poli]

Minor victory for my faction is a major one in my book. Even if I'm not in the right faction, at least the villagers win.

[Desnudo]

vote Execute McSweeney

[kingfc22]

Well, it's obvious that the other factions are just going to give this game to faction B. We only had two wolves left and I had already figured out after day one that Mr. W and McSweeny were wolves. (See post 351 and 375).

What we should of done is jail those in faction B in order for us to catch up since we know we could pretty much kill the wolves any day we wanted to.

But oh well...

UNVOTE JAIL ST. CRONIN

VOTE EXECUTE MCSWEENY

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Well, it's obvious that the other factions are just going to give this game to faction B. We only had two wolves left and I had already figured out after day one that Mr. W and McSweeny were wolves. (See post 351 and 375).

What we should of done is jail those in faction B in order for us to catch up since we know we could pretty much kill the wolves any day we wanted to.

yes this is what i was talking about when i said jail was undervalued

[Barkeep49]

There is no real doubt. McSweeny's last second please to jail someone, anyone, fall on deaf ears. In fact Ardent Enthusiast clearly more agitated about what is going on than McSweeny. McSweeny dies in a dignified matter, befitting his dignified life. A search of the roooms reveals he was indeed an ASSASSIN!

A few hours later the noble's dinner is interupted by cheering outside. It is clear that someone, most likely the old spymaster, has leaked word of the wisdom of RPI-Fan and his followers in discerning the evil that had infested the land. The crowd is chanting for him to be crowned king. When the nobles readjurn to the room after a little discussion they agree that they could do far worse than to be led by RPI-Fan and his faction. And so RPI-Fan is crowned king!

Normal Victory
RPI-Fan
st.cronin
Ardent enthusiast
Vince
Raiders Army

Minor Victory
George W Bush
Desnudo
Kingfc22
Passacaglia
Schmidity
Saldana


I will follow this post with some more info on the game.

However, I wanted to give a big thank you to everyone who played in this game. I am very interested in hearing your feedback. Clearly it was an easy win for the villagers. Did people still have fun? Assassins what did you think?
Jail was never seriously considered. What could be done to make this a more attractive option?

Thanks again to everyone for playing and I hope you had a good itme.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

This will be a fairly basic game of Werewolf

This part was misleading.

[RPI-Fan]

Barkeep:

First, thanks for taking so much time to run the game and it was indeed fun!

However, I think the point system really made things too opaque. I love the idea of being able to communicate within the villagers via the Faction Leader, and thought that added to the game.

In short, I think that a game very similar to this, with a lot of assasins and factions and extra roles, could be really fun, just with without the point system.

Again, thanks!

[RPI-Fan]

Damn, I didn't know ardent was in my Faction. Why didn't you follow any of the PM's I sent you???

[McSweeny]

i had a great time, even though our backs were against the wall almost from the start. I think future games will be a little more even now that we've got one game with this new point system under our belts.

[RPI-Fan]

BTW, want to hand the victory over to Vince... he pretty much won us the game.

I guess it wouldn't have mattered on the final day, since ardent would have gotten us the points for TazTFW, but I didn't even realize ardent was in our faction!

[McSweeny]

dola

and yeah we could have used one more assasin

[Barkeep49]

Below is a summary of the members of each faction and the total points they recieved followed by the number of points they recieved each day.

Faction A 9.5 -2.5 5 6
Faction Leader George W Bush
Blackmailed Blade6119
Dubb93
Fast Talking Noble/Vengeful Assassin Desnudo
Warrior Noble Coffee Warlord

Faction B 14.5 1.5 6.5 6.5
Faction Leader RPI-Fan
st.cronin
Sleepless Noble Ardent enthusiast
Vince
Sneaky Noble/Fast Talking Noble Raiders Army

Faction C 4.5 -1.5 2 4
Faction Leader Kingfc22
Passacaglia
Hoopsguy
Fast Talking Noble/Rich Noble Schmidity
Wise Noble/Lucky Noble Saldana

Assassins
Efficient Assassin McSweeny
Sly Assassin TazFTW
Assassin Mr. Wednesday

Overall you did a very good job of the math, which I expected. What I didn't expect was knowing two assassins from day 1, essentially, thus making things infinitely easier. Blade how did you peg Wednesday?

Again I really would appreciate your feedback as I might run this game either live or on another board in the future and want to know what could be done to make it more fun or balanced.

Thanks to everyone for playing and I hope you had a good time.

[Desnudo]

I found the major/minor victory system interesting, but I thought the math aspect made the game sort of dreary for me. I like it a lot more when people have to speculate rather than using straight math to deduce things.

[Joe]

I had no idea the factions were so big. I kept trying to analyze and find out who was in mine. I thought maybe RPI was in mine since his vote for McSweeny came so fast after my PM telling people to kill him, but I guess not.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I found the major/minor victory system interesting, but I thought the math aspect made the game sort of dreary for me. I like it a lot more when people have to speculate rather than using straight math to deduce things.

Word.

[RPI-Fan]

Another problem with the point system was being online at the start of the day.

It would have been hard for us to lose on that final day, as three members of a our faction locked up 1st vote points, and we just figured things out from there.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I found the major/minor victory system interesting, but I thought the math aspect made the game sort of dreary for me. I like it a lot more when people have to speculate rather than using straight math to deduce things.

yeah if i was a noble i probably would have felt the same way

[Joe]

oh nevermind i read the major/minor victory thing wrong. only person i didnt know was in my faction was blade

[TazFTW]

Nuts.

Originally Posted by me in an assassin PM

I had a hunch last night that RPI-Fan was a leader and I think his comments about not knowing who is in his faction, who his leader is, and who the assassins are, would indicate he's a faction leader (or trying to play as one). st.cronin seems to be protective of RPI, so I'm thinking he's in RPI's faction (along with Vince). So for our next kill maybe we should target Vince or st.cronin and hope that one is a fast talker.

I guess I was correct. The problem was I had you guys pegged for Faction A. I had dubb and CW in Faction B and I was trying to stop Faction B from winning. Should have looked at the math more.