Maximum Football???

[Marauders]

You said earlier that this was put in because it would make the sim faster.

Nope ... I didn't say that.

I said the quick sim engine was put in to make sim games go faster. The parameters were not put in for that.

Now you're saying that it was put in because the stats would be off.

It is in there to avoid extreme statistics.

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days, 82% completion percentage passing leaders, and a 210+ yard rushers each week. Those are the things that are trying to be avoided.

Which is it? Or is it both? Or maybe none of the above, and you're just making things up as you go?

Maybe if you could actually understand what you read, it wouldn't be a problem for you.

Please don't tell me what I say when I did not say it. That is making things up along the way.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days, 82% completion percentage passing leaders, and a 210+ yard rushers each week. Those are the things that are trying to be avoided.

Do they happen? Yes.

Do they happen EACH WEEK? No.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days, 82% completion percentage passing leaders, and a 210+ yard rushers each week.

Becuase it doesn't.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days, 82% completion percentage passing leaders, and a 210+ yard rushers each week. Those are the things that are trying to be avoided.
.

Are you saying Maximum Football has a more realistic sim engine???
WOW, just wow.

[duckman]

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

No, it keeps the stats from getting bloated. One can set them to whatever one wants, but the end stats are what are important. They should reflect stats similar to what one is getting in the live game.

Are you talking about the end team stats, the end individual stats, or both? Is this end total stats, or end average stats, or both? Can we expect the correct team to win if they can't ever pull off a long gain? If there is a matchup between a west coast, short yardage team and a homerun-or-strikeout team, will the second team be at a disadvantage because they can't hit a homerun, or will the sim engine also not allow them to strike out? And does either option lead to an accurate sim for the teams in question, or just numbers that make sense for the league but not the specific team?

In the abstract, being able to change the quicksim parameters to match the live games is a great idea. Even Madden doesn't do this very well. But to be useful, the numbers to have to make sense in multiple contexts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Are you talking about the end team stats, the end individual stats, or both? Is this end total stats, or end average stats, or both? Can we expect the correct team to win if they can't ever pull off a long gain? If there is a matchup between a west coast, short yardage team and a homerun-or-strikeout team, will the second team be at a disadvantage because they can't hit a homerun, or will the sim engine also not allow them to strike out? And does either option lead to an accurate sim for the teams in question, or just numbers that make sense for the league but not the specific team?

In the abstract, being able to change the quicksim parameters to match the live games is a great idea. Even Madden doesn't do this very well. But to be useful, the numbers to have to make sense in multiple contexts.

Dang.

You're sure expecting a lot from Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football.

Might want to reduce expectations for the world's first metrosexual sports game.

[SunDevil]

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...postcount=5040

Originally Posted by Marauders

Nevertheless, the game does have career mode, but it will not likely have advanced salary features until Maximum-Football II is released.

So when you wrote this did you mean version 2 or version 11?

[SunDevil]

February 2007

Originally Posted by Marauders

As I stated above, Maximum-Football should be locked down for an end build and just tested for those features. Although it is close to that, David has been adding many features that the community has been asking for. As far as I know, a full lockdown will be coming soon, and that should eliminate follow on bugs, so all standing features can be tested and any small remaining issues can be addressed.

August 2007

Originally Posted by Daivd Winters

For about a year now (maybe more), I have been stating that the 'next version' of the game would have some additional features asked for by the playing community. Some of those features involve AI trades, salary caps, online game play, etc.. Those of you that frequent the board probably know what I'm talking about. As I said, I've been saying that 'the next version will have those'. We'll, this is being advertised now as 'the next version', but I'm afraid those features I just mentioned will not be included.

Your track record and that of Matrix and Daivd speaks for itself.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Dang.

You're sure expecting a lot from Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football.

Might want to reduce expectations for the world's first metrosexual sports game.

Oh I agree. I just wanted to make sure that a quick comment of "19-yard and 41-yard max gains make the stats the same as a live game" won't cut it. People need to know that ALL of the stats will be accurate (or close enough) and that teams who should win do win in either setup. That isn't to say that team A will always beat team B, but if team A is good enough to win 80% of the live games, they should win around 80% of the quick sims too. The goal is not to just get reasonable numbers, but reasonable results across the board.

And if I can include one snarky comment with this, if David has done the spreadsheet-type text sim games years ago, he should have a ready code-base with which to create a quick sim engine that produces realistic stats without odd boundaries of 19 or 41 yard max gains. And with the technology advances that have come in all those years, that code base should run damn fast now.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Becuase it doesn't.

Doesn't the demo represent the play of the real game?

Trent Green went 15/51 and 199 yards in week one.

Brad Johnson had a 29% completion percentage in week two.

The two rushing leaders for the first two weeks were 225 and 212 yards. Cedric Benson had a 177 yards per game average.

There were four quarterbacks in the first two weeks that had over 80% completion percentages in games.

The next time I played, the top rusher had only 188 yards.

FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

The point is that even FOF, a stats based games, has variables that can affect the game statistics, and we all know that Madden isn't anywhere near realistic stats wise.

I am not here to talk poorly about FOF, as I believe it is a pretty cool game. Notwithstanding statistical display bugs that have been cleaned up, I will say that some of the critical analysis for Maximum Football may be a bit unfair considering how the other 3D football games' statistics work out.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Doesn't the demo represent the play of the real game?

Trent Green went 15/51 and 199 yards in week one.

Brad Johnson had a 29% completion percentage in week two.

The two rushing leaders for the first two weeks were 225 and 212 yards. Cedric Benson had a 177 yards per game average.

There were four quarterbacks in the first two weeks that had over 80% completion percentages in games.

The next time I played, the top rusher had only 188 yards.

FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

The point is that even FOF, a stats based games, has variables that can affect the game statistics, and we all know that Madden isn't anywhere near realistic stats wise.

I am not here to talk poorly about FOF, as I believe it is a pretty cool game. Notwithstanding statistical display bugs that have been cleaned up, I will say that some of the critical analysis for Maximum Football may be a bit unfair considering how the other 3D football games' statistics work out.

I am sure that was an old beta build.

BTW where did you get that demo.
I have never seen one where you could play 2 weeks out.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Marauders: Seeing as how you clearly have plenty of free time right now, can you please post screen shots that show us that stats are close to accurate for a game and for a season?

As long as you continue to dodge this you'll be nothing more than a punching bag around here. Either the game generates close to accurate stats or it doesn't. If, as you've said, it does, prove it.

Exactly. Just like his last jaunt through here he has ignored my post actually asking for him to show something concrete that shows the core of the game has improved.

Some screenshots that show any part of the game produces a semblance of realism (fine, you say the sim engine sucks - show us stats from a live game) would go a long way to build any semblance of credibility here. As of now, he just hasn't done that and has blatantly ignored requests to do so. As I said before, until he does I will continue to assume it's because the core of this game is still incredibly broken.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

Just like how the NFL statistics are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics? There is a reason why they are called "the edges". It's because they've happened.

If you look at the NFL weekly stats, you'll see QBs with very high completion percentages and very low completion percentages every single week. My response was mainly targeted at the 210+ yard rushers every week part, which 1) doesn't happen in the NFL and 2) doesn't happen in FOF.

Sure, if you play through the game, you might find a cluster or two of weeks where it does happen, just like it has happened in real life.

Looking at the stats for the MP league I'm in (eNFL shout out!), there have been about 2 dozen 210+ yard rushing games in about 15 seasons of play, which averages out to about 1 or 2 backs having a 210+ yard rushing game per year.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You're sure expecting a lot from Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football.

Ahem....Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football 2.0

[Marauders]

February 2007
Quote:


August 2007
Quote:


Your track record and that of Matrix and Daivd speaks for itself.

Speaks for what? Those posts are not even in the same context.

You can't just mix and match threads to suit you. That is dishonest.

David has been adding features all along the way in 1.x. There were features added to 1.3, 1.35, and what was renamed 2.0. What does that have to do with features that the Maximum Football community has understood for a long time would not come until a complete rebuild had been made?

You can try to spin this all you want, but David did not promise or indicate that salaries, GM features, and online play would be in this release. He didn't even indicate he was working on them. I have explained this several times. I have explained why 1.5 was renamed 2.0.

Quote:


So when you wrote this did you mean version 2 or version 11?

I meant the next scheduled overhauled version of the game. What it would be called is not up to me. It was a best guess title for something that would likely not be released for a year or two.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Marauders

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days,

Leave Reggie Ball out of this.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=59732

Myth:

BUSTED

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Surtt

I am sure that was an old beta build.

BTW where did you get that demo.
I have never seen one where you could play 2 weeks out.

FOF 2007 version 6.0d Demo

I downloaded it from the Solecismic Software site, as I recall.

Originally Posted by Marauders
FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

Originally Posted by sabotai

Just like how the NFL statistics are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics? There is a reason why they are called "the edges". It's because they've happened.

Quarterbacks go 15/51 often?. How many coaches in the history of the NFL would not have pulled a quarterback playing so poorly before he ever got close to 51 passes? McNabb went 15 for 33 in week one this season, but that isn't even close to 51 passes.

If you look at the NFL weekly stats, you'll see QBs with very high completion percentages and very low completion percentages every single week. My response was mainly targeted at the 210+ yard rushers every week part, which 1) doesn't happen in the NFL and 2) doesn't happen in FOF.

It did happen in the demo, and the demo is the ultimate indication of game play, at least that is what many of the posters have indicated in this thread.

Sure, if you play through the game, you might find a cluster or two of weeks where it does happen, just like it has happened in real life.

Which is it, does it happen or doesn't it happen?

If I displayed those stats for Maximum Football, a bunch of you would certainly speak up about how unrealistic the statistics were.

Again, I have already stated that the game balances out from what I have seen, and from what I have read on this board. I don't have a problem with Front Office Football. I like the game. My point is that some of the things that are pointed out here are not indicative of what Maximum Football does and does not do.

[Buccaneer]

Some screenshots that show any part of the game produces a semblance of realism (fine, you say the sim engine sucks - show us stats from a live game) would go a long way to build any semblance of credibility here. As of now, he just hasn't done that and has blatantly ignored requests to do so. As I said before, until he does I will continue to assume it's because the core of this game is still incredibly broken.

Someone should go back through all of the posts and count how many times this request has been made. Post a screenshot or two of the stats from the live game or season, if that's better.

I like the analogy to the electronic football game. I played my first one in 1970 and they had these great looking painted players of the Packers and Colts., with correct striping and logos.

[larrymcg421]

I'm loving the irony of Marauders using an FOF demo to make his point. If only we could do the same with Maximum Football. How's that coming along, Marauders?

[cartman]

I detect a serious lack of understanding of the concept of Standard Deviation.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

I detect a serious lack of understanding of the concept of Standard Deviation.

The same could be said for football.
And spelling.
And programming.
And the English language.

And those are just off the top of my head.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Exactly. Just like his last jaunt through here he has ignored my post actually asking for him to show something concrete that shows the core of the game has improved.

Some screenshots that show any part of the game produces a semblance of realism (fine, you say the sim engine sucks - show us stats from a live game) would go a long way to build any semblance of credibility here. As of now, he just hasn't done that and has blatantly ignored requests to do so. As I said before, until he does I will continue to assume it's because the core of this game is still incredibly broken.

...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Marauders

FOF 2007 version 6.0d Demo

Which is it, does it happen or doesn't it happen?

He aid it doesn't happen EVERY WEEK. Like it apparently does in maximum football if you don't put the caps. It does happen every now and then. Statistics of standard deviation. Doh.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Doesn't the demo represent the play of the real game?

Trent Green went 15/51 and 199 yards in week one.

I'm sure there have been worse games. I don't see how this is more unbelievable than a coach letting a QB get 7 INT's in one game.

Brad Johnson had a 29% completion percentage in week two.

I find it curious that you mentioned the 15/51 earlier but switch to completion % here. I bet he was he 2 for 7

The two rushing leaders for the first two weeks were 225 and 212 yards. Cedric Benson had a 177 yards per game average.

177 yard average in two games is hardly a record. Also, people get 200 yards every once in a while. It even happens in back to back weeks. Even the same back doing it isn't unheard of, as Ricky Williams did it in 2002.

There were four quarterbacks in the first two weeks that had over 80% completion percentages in games.

This is so rare, it happened twice last week...

Matt Schaub - 81.8%
Donovan McNabb - 80.8%

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Which is it, does it happen or doesn't it happen?

*sigh*

I said that is doesn't happen every week, just that it happens occasionally, and sometimes you might even find 2 or 3 weeks in a row where someone rushed for a lot of yards, but that it does not happen every single fucking week. Clear enough for you?

It did happen in the demo

And I told you that in 15 SEASONS of play in my MP league, it happened about 25 times. I think my 15 years trumps your 2 week demo results.

[Surtt]

At least it wasn't 225 yards on one run.
Unlike some other game we know.....

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Surtt

At least it wasn't 225 yards on one run.
Unlike some other game we know.....

That was fixed in the patch. Runs are now capped at 19 yards.

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by BrianD

That was fixed in the patch. Runs are now capped at 19 yards.

My mistake.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This is so rare, it happened twice last week...

Matt Schaub - 81.8%
Donovan McNabb - 80.8%

Tom Brady has come close to doing it all three weeks. (78.6%, 80.6%, 79.3%).

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Tom Brady has come close to doing it all three weeks. (78.6%, 80.6%, 79.3%).

Please stop posting Tom Brady stats. st.cronin is magnetically drawn towards them and if posted in too many places, his body will split.

[SunDevil]

I have no idea why you guys are defending FOF. We all know it is better and a great game. End of discussion. Marauders we are still waiting for screenshots of the new game stats, until then, playing our demo for two game weeks and talking about stats in the Maximum Football thread has to beg the question what is your point? If you have some new screenshots, movies, game logs than post them, until then enjoy the FOF demo, if you find something that does not look right, that forum is right here.

[dawgfan]

That Marauders is even attempting to defend the quick sim engine for Maximum Hilarity 2.0 when it has to have hard caps like 19 yards for runs and 41 yards for passes in order to generate "realistic" stats just goes to show that he's either too blind to this game to understand how ridiculous he sounds, or he simply doesn't understand stats with any depth to realize how ridiculous he sounds.

In fact, it's ridiculous to say the game generates realistic stats when it has those caps, because those are unrealistic caps - these caps are merely a band-aid fix to a fundamentally broken sim engine if that's what it takes to generate "realistic" stats in quick-simming. As others have already pointed out, that doesn't even begin to address the implications of how such caps would fuck up the realism of how different teams with different styles of play would actually perform and what that would mean to the legitimacy of such quick-simming.

And to top it off, he tries to trash FOF based off a supposed demo he downloaded and the supposedly unrealistic results he got. As anyone here who has played the FOF games with any regularity knows, Jim's sim engine is extremely good. Yeah, it has some flaws (punting being a notable one), but they are very minor in comparison to what has come out of Maximum Hilarity.

But by all means Marauders, keep posting - you've revived this thread yet again and proved that this thread may never lose its ability to entertain.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Tom Brady has come close to doing it all three weeks with three different super models.

fixed.

[Bee]

Forget screenshots of stats from MF2.0, I want to see shots of the secret tunnel between the inflatable helmet and the beer tent.

[Bee]

I really can't believe though that he's afraid to post screenshots of the stats. Surely you could go through and find something that looks reasonably realistic from just about any football game, just filter out all the screenshots that show the stupid stuff. Wait....maybe that's what he is doing and that's why it's taking so long!

[Passacaglia]

Marauders, I have a question. You keep saying these hard-coded values can be changed by the user. Do the stats stop becoming realistic once they're changed?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bee

I really can't believe though that he's afraid to post screenshots of the stats. Surely you could go through and find something that looks reasonably realistic from just about any football game, just filter out all the screenshots that show the stupid stuff.

In all seriousness, I agree. It's a very sad statement of where the game is that he has dodged this question for, what, 9 months?

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Marauders, I have a question. You keep saying these hard-coded values can be changed by the user. Do the stats stop becoming realistic once they're changed?

Note that these values are only used in the sim game. Maximum Football was designed primarily as a live game (human vs CPU, CPU vs CPU, Human vs Human). The sim game is used if one does not want to have all of the games play out live.

As the values are changed, the statistics change as well. The live game has settings similar to Madden sliders that allows more scoring or less. The "hard coded values" for the sim game allow the game player to match the sim game to whatever has been set in the live game.

Some game players like more scoring like Madden has. Some people, like myself, enjoy scoring and statistics that are closer to the NFL or CFL. If the live game is tweaked either way, then the sim game should be as well to have similar stats for the league.

Right now, there are game players doing hybrid leagues (8 man on outdoor 100yd field ...), and they are trying to figure out what the sim values should be.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Please stop posting Tom Brady stats. st.cronin is magnetically drawn towards them and if posted in too many places, his body will split.

This is your 378th post in this thread - 120 more than the 2nd place poster (Bee). I think you should shoot for 400 by the end of this weekend.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Neither David nor Matrix Games expected that there would have to be so many changes to the game code when Microsoft changed the .dll's for Vista, but like many other computer game software developers found out, there was.

Ooo ooo, this is where I get to come in again, right? Especially since later you blame Microsoft for forcing 2.0 on you?

Do you know what has changed for game developers from XP to Vista? Two items:

1. Limited User is now the default for everyone.
2. Some small installer changes to get on the Game Explorer.

Do you know why game developers have a hard time transitioning to Vista? Because they ignored the Limited User role in XP to begin with and played fast-and-loose with security.

Seriously, save off all your written files into "My Documents" (well, actually use the shell function ShGetFolderPath and pass CSIDL_PERSONAL, or ShGetSpecialFolder Path if you need pre-Win2k support) and you are pretty much done. Unless you're doing something truly hacky you probably shouldn't have done in the first place. I'm sure there may be other minor pieces (Registry security was another one that bit me about 4 years ago, but it was the same sort of issue).

Microsoft even provides the ApplicationCompatibilityToolkit to warn you of these things, and has for years.

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Unless you're doing something truly hacky...

Believe it or not this was my first time really digging into this thread, but I think that somes it up pretty well.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Ooo ooo, this is where I get to come in again, right? Especially since later you blame Microsoft for forcing 2.0 on you?

Do you know what has changed for game developers from XP to Vista? Two items:

1. Limited User is now the default for everyone.
2. Some small installer changes to get on the Game Explorer.

Do you know why game developers have a hard time transitioning to Vista? Because they ignored the Limited User role in XP to begin with and played fast-and-loose with security.

Seriously, save off all your written files into "My Documents" ... and you are pretty much done. Unless you're doing something truly hacky you probably shouldn't have done in the first place. I'm sure there may be other minor pieces (Registry security was another one that bit me about 4 years ago, but it was the same sort of issue).

Microsoft even provides the ApplicationCompatibilityToolkit to warn you of these things, and has for years.

Fair enough, but why are you telling me as if I had any say in it? I don't work for Wintervalley Software, Matrix Games, or any other software developer that ran into problems with Vista. I am not a programmer.

In any case, changes were made, and code was rewritten. David changed some of the interface and changed the depth charts and other things as well.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Note that these values are only used in the sim game. Maximum Football was designed primarily as a live game (human vs CPU, CPU vs CPU, Human vs Human). The sim game is used if one does not want to have all of the games play out live.

As the values are changed, the statistics change as well. The live game has settings similar to Madden sliders that allows more scoring or less. The "hard coded values" for the sim game allow the game player to match the sim game to whatever has been set in the live game.

Some game players like more scoring like Madden has. Some people, like myself, enjoy scoring and statistics that are closer to the NFL or CFL. If the live game is tweaked either way, then the sim game should be as well to have similar stats for the league.

Right now, there are game players doing hybrid leagues (8 man on outdoor 100yd field ...), and they are trying to figure out what the sim values should be.

So basically the answer to the original question is "yes".

[Bee]

Originally Posted by molson

This is your 378th post in this thread - 120 more than the 2nd place poster (Bee). I think you should shoot for 400 by the end of this weekend.

Screw that, I'm planning on catching Antmeister by the end of the day.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Fair enough, but why are you telling me as if I had any say in it? I don't work for Wintervalley Software, Matrix Games, or any other software developer that ran into problems with Vista. I am not a programmer.

Because twice you blamed the Vista port as the reason for 2.0. Your second was:

Originally Posted by Marauders

He did not know at the time that there would be the need for an interim version. Microsoft changed that plan.

Microsoft did nothing of the sort.

[lighthousekeeper]

I think some of you should be ashamed for how you're treating Marauders. He's just a gamer like the rest of us, discussing a game he likes, and trying to be as helpful and patient as possible to provide helpful information.

[Eaglesfan27]

Or he's a paid shill. Either way, it doesn't matter. He is making ridiculous arguments and should expect to be called on them.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Note that these values are only used in the sim game. Maximum Football was designed primarily as a live game (human vs CPU, CPU vs CPU, Human vs Human). The sim game is used if one does not want to have all of the games play out live.

As the values are changed, the statistics change as well. The live game has settings similar to Madden sliders that allows more scoring or less. The "hard coded values" for the sim game allow the game player to match the sim game to whatever has been set in the live game.

Some game players like more scoring like Madden has. Some people, like myself, enjoy scoring and statistics that are closer to the NFL or CFL. If the live game is tweaked either way, then the sim game should be as well to have similar stats for the league.

Right now, there are game players doing hybrid leagues (8 man on outdoor 100yd field ...), and they are trying to figure out what the sim values should be.

It sounds to me like his distribution is heavy-tailed. While this is far from the worst thing I've heard about this game, I'd be much happier if this hard-coded value that I could change were the AVERAGE yards per play (and maybe even the second moment, or the variance). That would actually be a really cool feature.