Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[RainMaker]

I guess it's the old TV Guide channel. Are they at least getting paid for it or are they fronting the bill?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I guess it's the old TV Guide channel. Are they at least getting paid for it or are they fronting the bill?

Sources are saying "they aren't paying for the airtime" ... so I figure it's mostly a "we'll air it" deal.

I mean, if the big concern seems to have been whether TNA was going to have to buy the time ala infomercial style then I can't imagine the network is going to be giving them big bucks.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just when you thought TNA couldn't find a worse "TV deal" than Destination America ... welcome to Pop TV in Jan 2016.

Between the time slots given to ROH by their own parent company and TNA's comical efforts, I'm really not sure why anyone could possibly think there's any viability in anyone other than WWE on U.S. television at this point.

Thank god for UniMás.

[Suicane75]

I'm not sure they're getting paid by the network, but I think they get to keep most of the $115 ad revenue from each show.

[RainMaker]

For what it's worth I'm happy they are still around just because it keeps some talent employed.

[Suicane75]

The talent they have left are basically indy guys who probably make more money working other dates seeing as TNA hardly runs any shows anymore. I'm not a hateful person, but I can't stand that Dixie Carter continues to have TNA to play with. I find her to be as near worthless a human being as there comes.

[molson]

I read somewhere that Pop TV still runs those scrolling TV listings in some markets. So you could have a TNA World Championship match where a third of the screen is obscured by what's coming up next on Animal Planet.

[Suicane75]

That would fit right in if Eric Young was involved.

[murrayyyyy]

WWE on Twitter: "Watch the @FightingIrish's video for The #ShamrockSeries between @NDFootball & BC, narrated by @WWESheamus: https://t.co/dNAcbnEoHq"

Looks like Sheamus has found his next job as the Notre Dame hype man...

[Mota]

Okay, so is the main storyline in the WWE Roman Reigns vs. the Authority now?

That really makes no sense, as Reigns is the chosen one in this company, from the moment he stepped into the ring he was pegged as a future world champion. He was the 3rd best wrestler in the Shield. He was the 3rd best talker in the Shield, yet he was given all of their high spot moments. When they break up, he got the Shield outfit, the music and the entrance while Ambrose / Rollins had to recreate themselves.

He gets booed in most arenas because he's not OUR guy, he's THEIR guy. And somehow we're supposed to cheer him vs. the Authority now. I don't think so.

Also, Sheamus as the world champion. Hasn't the WWE noticed that they lost 20% of their viewership in this past year? Shouldn't they be trying something that will grow their viewership, instead of continuing to contract?

Watching stuff like this makes me glad that I've given up on the WWE, only watching the PPV's now.

[Maple Leafs]

But it's the main storyline, and the main WWE storyline must always be "sympathetic face against heel authority figure". Sorry. It's the only one they've got. I think congress passed a law back in '97.

But just think how much fun it will be to have every RAW start with a 20-minute argument over what best of business, followed by handicap matches and other screwjobs for an entire month, every month.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

Okay, so is the main storyline in the WWE Roman Reigns vs. the Authority now?

That really makes no sense, as Reigns is the chosen one in this company, from the moment he stepped into the ring he was pegged as a future world champion. He was the 3rd best wrestler in the Shield. He was the 3rd best talker in the Shield, yet he was given all of their high spot moments. When they break up, he got the Shield outfit, the music and the entrance while Ambrose / Rollins had to recreate themselves.

He gets booed in most arenas because he's not OUR guy, he's THEIR guy. And somehow we're supposed to cheer him vs. the Authority now. I don't think so.

Also, Sheamus as the world champion. Hasn't the WWE noticed that they lost 20% of their viewership in this past year? Shouldn't they be trying something that will grow their viewership, instead of continuing to contract?

Watching stuff like this makes me glad that I've given up on the WWE, only watching the PPV's now.

Where are they suppose to go if not that direction? The injury list resembles a team that is 2-10 in the NFL. Think about it.

Lesnar time off, Cena time off, Rollins out, D Bryan can't get a WWE doctor to let him wrestle, Orton should surgery, Cesaro rumored torn rotator, Rusev injured, Taker+Kane+Jericho+Sting+HHH all over 45. So here's what you got to work with at the top.

Reigns, Sheamus, ADR, Ambrose, Wyatt(who seems to job every PPV), Owens, Zigs (who just jobbed to Breeze), New Day, Ryback(who jobbed to Kalisto). Maybe I'm missing someone but that's the best I can find for level 1/2 right now in the WWE. Who are the faces to chase the titles off 3 heels right now? The best option (Reigns) just got booed out of the building. So you have Ambrose, Ryback, Zigs or turn New Day into faces(create a ND riff with Sheamus off last night)? There just aren't any options right now.

[Neuqua]

Turning Owens into a Corporate Champion or even Reigns corporate would have worked just fine and gotten me interested. The crowd wants to boo Reigns anyway, there is nothing wrong with now giving them a reason too. Ambrose (a watered down Steve Austin type) vs. Corporate Champion Reigns could have generated a decent amount of excitement.

Right now I have no idea if I'll ever switch over to RAW from MNF.

[PilotMan]

Backstage might not think he's earned it, but it's clear that Owens can carry a prime heel time right now. Plus he's got heat. A change of pace from Seamus would've been nice. I just feel like he's still kind of a comedy gimmick. It's hard to really take him seriously.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Ambrose (a watered down Steve Austin type) vs. Corporate Champion Reigns could have generated a decent amount of excitement.

But once again, if you go this route what the hell do you do with the other two titles? Have heel vs heel every week for the IC and US title?

I mean last night you had everyone with a title lose. The IC, US, tag(kinda) and newly crowned HWC all lost. So we are left with 3 weak heel champions?

Owens seems to be holding the belt until Zayn comes back. They have chemistry together from all they years together.

I have zero ideas on who ADR will feud with. Ryback?

[RainMaker]

Sheamus might have made sense if he had been winning.

[Flasch186]

Bubba Ray?

[RainMaker]

I mean their problem is that they just don't build up stars anymore. It's basically John Cena is king and Roman got a push too. Everyone else is treated as an afterthought.

Even Rollins who held the title for over 7 months barely ever won.

[RainMaker]

And for what it's worth I think they should have just turned Reigns. Fans want to boo him. Fans see him as the "corporate" guy already. Why not play into that and let fans get it out of their system like they did with The Rock?

They keep trying to force feed Reigns on people as the top babyface and it just isn't working.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

Where are they suppose to go if not that direction? The injury list resembles a team that is 2-10 in the NFL. Think about it.

Lesnar time off, Cena time off, Rollins out, D Bryan can't get a WWE doctor to let him wrestle, Orton should surgery, Cesaro rumored torn rotator, Rusev injured, Taker+Kane+Jericho+Sting+HHH all over 45. So here's what you got to work with at the top.

Reigns, Sheamus, ADR, Ambrose, Wyatt(who seems to job every PPV), Owens, Zigs (who just jobbed to Breeze), New Day, Ryback(who jobbed to Kalisto). Maybe I'm missing someone but that's the best I can find for level 1/2 right now in the WWE. Who are the faces to chase the titles off 3 heels right now? The best option (Reigns) just got booed out of the building. So you have Ambrose, Ryback, Zigs or turn New Day into faces(create a ND riff with Sheamus off last night)? There just aren't any options right now.

They have under contract, Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, James Storm, Dean Amrose, Kevin Owens, Sammy Zayne, Uhaa Nation, Alberto Del Rio, A plethora of really solid tag teams in NXT, a plethora of fantastic women. The problem isn't depth. They are the number 1 company in the world by leaps and bounds and could have just about anyone they wanted wrestling on Monday Night from 8-11. The problem now, as it has been for the past 15 years, is a complete and utter lack of quality writing and booking, nothing more. The way they develop acts is retarded, their writing is retarded, the entire structure of the company from Vince on down, is retarded. That's the problem, not the amount of talent.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Bubba Ray?

Meltzer touched on him a few nights ago when talking about the lack of top level heels they have. He's a proven guy, who can do it all and would be tremendous as the top heel. But he's doing a lower card goofball retro act because that's about as much thought as this shitty company puts into anything.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

They have under contract, Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, James Storm, Dean Amrose, Kevin Owens, Sammy Zayne, Uhaa Nation, Alberto Del Rio, A plethora of really solid tag teams in NXT, a plethora of fantastic women. The problem isn't depth. They are the number 1 company in the world by leaps and bounds and could have just about anyone they wanted wrestling on Monday Night from 8-11. The problem now, as it has been for the past 15 years, is a complete and utter lack of quality writing and booking, nothing more. The way they develop acts is retarded, their writing is retarded, the entire structure of the company from Vince on down, is retarded. That's the problem, not the amount of talent.

This.

Look at Dean Ambrose, he gets the crowd energized. He has that anti-hero vibe to him, and yet he's never had the anti-authority storyline which would be completely natural. They give the anti-authority storyline to the chosen one who they have been shoving down our throats for the last year (unsuccessfully). That storyline is grassroots, we have to want the hero to punch the boss in the face. What we really want is to punch Vince in the face for shoving Roman Reigns down our throats. Those two storylines do not intersect successfully.

Yes they've been hit with injuries. But it's a physical sport and it happens. But if we're doing the football comparison, that would be like drafting one running back, not carrying any backups on the roster and rushing him 40 times a game. Eventually something is going to happen, and they weren't ready for it.

We all reminisce about the attitude era, well one of the things I remember from that era is that TONS of wrestlers were over and had storylines built around them. They had The Rock AND Stone Cold running hot at the same time without snuffing each other out. For the last 10 years it has been ONLY John Cena and the last year ONLY Roman Reigns (and Brock but he's really just a special guest and not truly a roster member).

It's possible to do this again today. Look at New Japan Pro Wrestling. They have Tanahashi, Styles, Nakamura and Okada all being #1 level. They are all super over and could all have a successful championship run at any time. Then you have a ton of guys that are upper midcarders that can put on super credible matches against the main eventers and sometimes win. You have Suzuki, Goto, Ishii, Shibata, Makabe and Ibushi that could all wrestle main event matches. These guys are all stars.

Build, don't tear down, and we'd be in a totally different situation today.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

It's possible to do this again today. Look at New Japan Pro Wrestling. They have Tanahashi, Styles, Nakamura and Okada all being #1 level.

All of which have less awareness or recognition in the U.S. than a backup sideline reporter.

That's such apples & oranges for situations that I don't think it's really a relevant example. Fans of the WWE are such a different animal than what NJPW has that it might as well be two different things entirely.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

All of which have less awareness or recognition in the U.S. than a backup sideline reporter.

That's such apples & oranges for situations that I don't think it's really a relevant example. Fans of the WWE are such a different animal than what NJPW has that it might as well be two different things entirely.

I think you're underestimating the number of hardcore fans who still follow WWE because it's the only game in town.

Plus his statement was more towards booking, not how popular those guys are in the states.

And really, you put any one of those guys on Raw next week and they're a star. They're as known as Owens & Balor are and those guys are doing just fine. Well, as fine as you can do in the E.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

All of which have less awareness or recognition in the U.S. than a backup sideline reporter.

That's such apples & oranges for situations that I don't think it's really a relevant example. Fans of the WWE are such a different animal than what NJPW has that it might as well be two different things entirely.

Yeah I wasn't talking about stealing these guys. With the WWE's booking, they could turn anybody into an irrelevant midcarder within 3-4 weeks.

It's the ability to take talented wrestlers, and position them in a way so they can maintain many of them to be viewed as main eventers or as legit contenders. They already have plenty of talent. This has happened before, and other companies are doing it right now. Let's see the WWE turn their game around. They are really the only show in town these days, so I'd prefer them to right the ship and actually be good for a change.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Mota

This.

Look at Dean Ambrose, he gets the crowd energized. He has that anti-hero vibe to him, and yet he's never had the anti-authority storyline which would be completely natural. They give the anti-authority storyline to the chosen one who they have been shoving down our throats for the last year (unsuccessfully).

Guess this shows how memorable the Money in the Bank 15 title match was. Ambrose had his run and it was so great that no one remembers it.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

They have under contract, Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, James Storm, Dean Amrose, Kevin Owens, Sammy Zayne, Uhaa Nation, Alberto Del Rio, A plethora of really solid tag teams in NXT, a plethora of fantastic women. The problem isn't depth. They are the number 1 company in the world by leaps and bounds and could have just about anyone they wanted wrestling on Monday Night from 8-11. The problem now, as it has been for the past 15 years, is a complete and utter lack of quality writing and booking, nothing more. The way they develop acts is retarded, their writing is retarded, the entire structure of the company from Vince on down, is retarded. That's the problem, not the amount of talent.

Problem with that group is they have 0 mic skills for the most part and I'm not sure Vince trust the TNA guys transitioning from the smaller ring to a WWE ring. (well reality is I don't think Vince even knows the TNA guys work @ NXT but that's another subject).

I mean if you watch last night's show you see how bad it is as Heath Slater got more face time than he has in the past 6 months combined. Everyone is romanticized with the Attitude Era because they had guy's who could actually use the mic when given face time. Right now it's a New Day world as they are clearly the best on the mic. Hell Sheamus sounds a lot better than Reigns or Rollins on the mic. It's the one thing that I think NXT does a poor job developing.

[RainMaker]

Owens is one of the best in the business on the mic. Ambrose is pretty good too.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Owens is one of the best in the business on the mic. Ambrose is pretty good too.

Like I said, for the most part. Only other one I consider on that list being strong is Storm and there is no way he is being brought up that quickly. Storm as the leader of a TNA faction is what they need to battle the Wyatt's and build up that the buzzards.

I want to like Owens on the mic but he seems to struggle with the scripted stuff and seems to be more at ease with the WWE exclusives you see on youtube.

[RainMaker]

I think almost everyone struggles with the scripted stuff because it's so bad. Owens is great when he's given freedom like he was in NXT. Ambrose is great too with freedom.

The company also needs to realize that the guy that can't talk shouldn't talk. Like Reigns should not be cutting long promos. He should be a silent type. Basically what they are doing with Baron Corbin in NXT.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think almost everyone struggles with the scripted stuff because it's so bad. Owens is great when he's given freedom like he was in NXT. Ambrose is great too with freedom.

The company also needs to realize that the guy that can't talk shouldn't talk. Like Reigns should not be cutting long promos. He should be a silent type. Basically what they are doing with Baron Corbin in NXT.

But shouldn't this be what NXT is used for(learn to go off bulletpoints on the mic)? I can't remember anyone saying "did you hear that Finn Balor promo"... ever. Owens seems to be too worried about hitting his bullet points. I mean ADR is so bad they went and gave him Dutch Mantel. I'm just not sure who they could pull in as a potential manager to take care of the guys who can't use the mic like they would have in the past. Mic guys take up time on a 3 hour show when you don't want a wrestling show. Lawler would be a natural at it but I'm not sure they could convince him to do it.

[Suicane75]

Here's an idea, if guys have trouble reciting shitty writing, maybe stop giving them shitty writing. It's like saying Joe Montana was a horrible running back.

Storm, Balor, Joe, Del Rio, Owens, Nation, Ambrose, Reigns, all have natural charisma in spades, and they all got over with it, despite having to trudge through the horrible scripting. I mean for fuck sakes, Reigns was being given Loony Tunes promos last year when they were trying to build him as a bad ass. Legit was quoting Loony Tunes. People get over in that company in spite of the company, not because of it. They do NOTHING to help get guys over. Whether it's the writing, the booking, the match structure, the TV presentation. It's all horrible.

If A Ted Turner came along today, WWE would be out of business by the time their next TV contract came up.

[Maple Leafs]

Anyone have recommendations for sites that do smart WWE analysis, particularly of the live shows (Raw and the PPVs)?

I generally like f4wonline for recaps, and I like the pwinsider.com Q+A columns that run about once a day (but their recaps are awful -- I don't need a rehash of every single move and promo line). Other than that, the Uproxx stuff is clearly amazing, but I haven't seen much else.

I'm sure I'm missing something... any suggestions?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Anyone have recommendations for sites that do smart WWE analysis, particularly of the live shows (Raw and the PPVs)?

I generally like f4wonline for recaps, and I like the pwinsider.com Q+A columns that run about once a day (but their recaps are awful -- I don't need a rehash of every single move and promo line). Other than that, the Uproxx stuff is clearly amazing, but I haven't seen much else.

I'm sure I'm missing something... any suggestions?

r/squaredcircle on reddit is about 50% bs and 50% quality content. They have live running threads for shows am a post recap of each show for discussion. They have their stretches where it's pure crap but the AMAS are great with wrestlers answering a ton of questions.

[Mota]

Well, we are now entering the dark ages for the WWE once again.

Average viewership was under 3,000,000 for the first time since 1997 (non-holiday) and the rating was 2.13, we are getting dangerously close to the 1's. Do you remember just a year or two ago where a rating under 3 was considered a disaster?

In the arenas, Roman Reigns might be getting cheered, and the Authority is getting booed, but in record numbers, people are getting sick and tired of being told who they should like, and why the guys they actually like don't count.

And they are leaving.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

r/squaredcircle on reddit is about 50% bs and 50% quality content. They have live running threads for shows am a post recap of each show for discussion. They have their stretches where it's pure crap but the AMAS are great with wrestlers answering a ton of questions.

Yeah, I've seen that and it's decent. I'm more looking for one guy or one site I can read each week to keep up. I still find the business fascinating, but I have zero desire to actually spend time watching the product.

[albionmoonlight]

Still a fan of a offseason for WWE. Give bodies time to heal. Give writers time to work on and polish scripts and plotlines for the next season. Make the product seem more like a "sport."

The economics might be such that WWE cannot afford to go into 3 months of re-runs and no house shows. But if they could make it work, I think that it would certainly help the overall quality of the product.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

The economics might be such that WWE cannot afford to go into 3 months of re-runs...

(Watches an episode of RAW based around The Authority screwing the valiant babyface out of his title.)

Pretty sure we're into month 18 of reruns right now, if not much more than that.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

(Watches an episode of RAW based around The Authority screwing the valiant babyface out of his title.)

Pretty sure we're into month 18 of reruns right now, if not much more than that.

18 months? That's been the basic storyline since 1997. Kind of insane when you consider the basis of the idea is for the owner/authority hating and trying to screw the wrestler who is making them the most money.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Yeah, I've seen that and it's decent. I'm more looking for one guy or one site I can read each week to keep up. I still find the business fascinating, but I have zero desire to actually spend time watching the product.

I know you mentioned Uproxx but are you reading "The Best and Worst of [insert show]" articles by Brandon Stroud? He's who I read to keep up with what's going on. The Retro Best and Worsts are great too.

[CU Tiger]

Is there another form of genre anywhere that people watch in relatively large numbers and then almost unaniomously complain about what they are given. It fascinates me.

Everyone agrees the WWE product is a crapfest but every competitor that tries to rival them fails miserably.

I think the single biggest thing that would help WWE is for someone to force Vince to approve a 1 year script and STICK TO IT. Regardless of what happens. If you are building character depth properly interest will ebb and flow and (hopefully) crescendo at the biggest moments. Instead they react to ever "meh" as a fatal flaw and re-write the entire future.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

I know you mentioned Uproxx but are you reading "The Best and Worst of [insert show]" articles by Brandon Stroud? He's who I read to keep up with what's going on. The Retro Best and Worsts are great too.

Yeah, that's the feature I meant. That guy is fantastic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Is there another form of genre anywhere that people watch in relatively large numbers and then almost unaniomously complain about what they are given.

Any country music awards show.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Is there another form of genre anywhere that people watch in relatively large numbers and then almost unaniomously complain about what they are given. It fascinates me.

Isn't that pretty much any monopoly?

My internet / TV provider is the same. I hate them. Yet I keep giving them money every month.

Same with sports teams. You might have a crappy sports team in your town and some awesome minor leagues, but all people will talk about is the crappy major league team.

If another major league wrestling company surfaced and was able to compete for the #1 spot, you can bet that many of us would completely stop paying attention to the WWE, that's exactly what happened in 1996-1997 when WCW was kicking their butt.

[Mota]

We have a new WWE Champion in Roman Reigns, who won the title at Raw last night.

Apparently they were able to get him cheered ... in Philly, no less.

Does that mean they've finally turned the corner on him and he'll be their new lead guy, or did they just stack the cards so much that the crowd would have cheered for anybody in that role?

On an NJPW note, I watched Night 4 of the 2013 G4 yesterday and it was one of the best shows I've ever seen. Just for laughs I went to the Wrestling Observer awards and not surprisingly, 2 matches from that night were in the top 10 matches of the year. It was amazing wrestling and a HOT crowd that bought into all the near falls and viewed a TON of the guys as major stars.

[molson]

It was pretty clever booking to get him cheered like that in Philly. I think it was the suddenness of it all. They could have had Steph say that Vince was coming next week, and then next week Vince could have booked the match for the week after, or for the Royal Rumble. But when you pull out a more frantic pace for things once in a while, it can work really well.

I think the easiest template to keep him popular is have him face HHH at Royal Rumble and then John Cena at Mania (though they do need a big new heel at some point too). With lots of violence in between. Reigns is at his best when he's beating everyone up and not talking too much. He's become a really good WWE-style main event wrestler.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rumor mill running wild that four NJPW stars gave notice last night, with them bound for WWE.

Styles, Nakamura, Gallows and Anderson.

Balor Club maybe?

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Rumor mill running wild that four NJPW stars gave notice last night, with them bound for WWE.

Styles, Nakamura, Gallows and Anderson.

Balor Club maybe?

This could be fantastic if WWE handles it right. Not that there's any reason to believe they will.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ryche

This could be fantastic if WWE handles it right. Not that there's any reason to believe they will.

True. The best hope is probably that they accidentally get it right somehow, the stopped clock exception HAS to kick in now and then after all.

[Toddzilla]

Holy shit, the WWE already has a roster full of people they have no idea how to use. Why bring in 4 more guys that are just going to get jobbed out to the Dudleys or Wyatts?