The Biden Presidency - 2020

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by AlexB

If it makes one player uncomfortable but thirty players feel better because of it (based on the photo)it’s up to the one player to adjust and take himself somewhere more private.

That creates one hell of a slippery slope and is generally why we have laws protecting minority groups.

From the 90s back this was the most common argument made when it came to someone being offended by workplace behavior. If you're the only one offended then it's in you to remove yourself or just accept it. We know better now. We can make a reasonable assumption that if one person in a group is uncomfortable with something there are likely others that are afraid to speak up.

In this case we can go the other way with it now. If a coach wanted to conduct a satanic ritual on the field after games and it made 30 players uncomfortable and 1 player joined in then the satanic ritual is now protected. It's on the 30 players to go somewhere private.

[AlexB]

That’s a ridiculous extrapolation. In this instance (which is what was being discussed, not satanic rituals or 1970s workplaces) there is nothing that discriminates against the one, nothing that prevents him from opportunities, nothing that is against the law of the land, nothing that impacts them from living their life.

Being uncomfortable is no excuse for preventing anyone from doing anything legal that you don’t agree with if it doesn’t adversely impact on your ability to live and prosper.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by AlexB

not satanic rituals

Why is this exempt? If someone's religion is that they believe in Satan worship, why would that be any different?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why is this exempt? If someone's religion is that they believe in Satan worship, why would that be any different?

I was referencing something that Atocep randomly brought into the conversation.

I agree, if said Satanic ritual doesn’t involve sacrifice, harm to animals, doesn’t take place outside someone’s window at midnight, or anything else that breaks the law or adversely affects someone’s ability to live their life, crack on.

[JPhillips]

SCOTUS doesn't care about a conspiracy.

They just reinstated maps in LA that were overturned by a district court without any explanation or hearings.

Just vote harder. lol

[dubb93]

I honestly can't believe I'm say this....but something has to be done about the supreme court. I could elaborate why...but like where do I even start on the list of things it's doing that ideally a supreme court would not be doing. I don't really know what the options are, but none of them are going to easy and I really wonder if Biden has the stones to start any sort of process. But at this point the supreme court is literally just another body of congress with ultimate veto power that will veto everything that even smells like someone that is liberal wants.

[dubb93]

And it's not even like this is the will of the people. How many of these justices were appointed by people that actually won a popular vote?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by AlexB

If it makes one player uncomfortable but thirty players feel better because of it (based on the photo)it’s up to the one player to adjust and take himself somewhere more private.

So wait, are you claiming it's okay because more players approve than disapprove? Really? Based on your statement here, if 99 kids in the cafeteria feel better about a teacher led prayer and one kid didn't, that would be okay?

That's just not how rights work in this country. It's important for the government to not endorse religion, even if that's the religion of 99.999% of the people in the country or the state or the school.

[GrantDawg]

Reports are saying that both Secret Service agents in the car are willing to testify that the assault thing never happened. If that's the case, having her testify to that was a huge mistake. That is all the Fox News watchers are going to hear over and over again. Hopefully, that report is wrong.

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[RainMaker]

It appears Engel and Ornato already testified.

Engel and Ornato were both interviewed by the committee months ago. Unclear if either was asked about this; their testimony wasn't played today. https://t.co/rVZ99DSkhJ

— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) June 28, 2022

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Reports are saying that both Secret Service agents in the car are willing to testify that the assault thing never happened. If that's the case, having her testify to that was a huge mistake. That is all the Fox News watchers are going to hear over and over again. Hopefully, that report is wrong.

I don't think it matters to them.

[Ksyrup]

They'll lose more than Fox News viewers if this blows up on them. Hence my posting in the other thread.

[JPhillips]

I'd be very careful about trusting the source. Trump folks lied to reporters all the time and we don't know who is speaking.

[Ksyrup]

We don't have to trust it. If they already testified to what she said, it'll come out. Or, if they come forward with contradictory statements, then we are back to square one. Actually, square negative one for what it will do to everything the committee has done up to this point.

[JPhillips]

Right, but until then there isn't a good reason to trust this anonymous source's contention.

[GrantDawg]

Confirmed also by CBS now.

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[Ksyrup]

Multiple reporters are now saying this, but it certainly could be the same source pushing the narrative. Problem is, the narrative is they plan to testify so if it's just a narrative, is this just to temporarily stop the momentum of the day? Because at some point, it'll either be true or not.

[RainMaker]

I think until they are willing to be deposed under oath about it, it should be taken with a grain of salt. I am certain the committee would be happy to speak to them about this.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Again, the only inappropriate part here is when any coaches joined. Students are free to pray whenever they want, including during school hours as long as it is not disruptive. The whole point is official government endorsement of religion, which should be completely avoided.

Why would coaches (or teachers, or administrators) joining a prayer circle constitute official government endorsement of religion? Them leading it and anything feeling compulsory is a slippery slope, but I don't give up all of my rights to freedom of expression when I'm on the campus as a school employee. Especially because a large part of my job isn't just teaching the sport it's also encouraging kids to develop and live by certain values - and faith isn't my cup of tea, but it is a tool many follow and use to encourage leading better lives.

[JPhillips]

This could be a range of things, from nothing like this happened, to I define assault and lunge differently, to we'll never testify under oath about it.

There just isn't any reason to get too caught up in anonymous sources when there's clearly an effort by the Trump camp to bury this woman.

[GrantDawg]

They will definitely testify about it. The official account of the Secret Service said all agents have been made available to the committee and have and will testify at the committee's request. Engel has already testified to the committee in a closed door session.If they come forward and deny this, this is just a huge unforced error by the committee.

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[JPhillips]

dola

Remember how Ginny Thomas was willing to testify? Her lawyer now says maybe not unless the committee comes up with a better reason.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Why would coaches (or teachers, or administrators) joining a prayer circle constitute official government endorsement of religion? Them leading it and anything feeling compulsory is a slippery slope, but I don't give up all of my rights to freedom of expression when I'm on the campus as a school employee. Especially because a large part of my job isn't just teaching the sport it's also encouraging kids to develop and live by certain values - and faith isn't my cup of tea, but it is a tool many follow and use to encourage leading better lives.

Nobody said you give up all of your rights, but you do give up some of them.

I'm a teacher/coach and I would never do something like that because I'd never want a kid feeling coerced into joining such a prayer or feeling left out because they had a different faith.

If those values are so important, then wouldn't be important for people to find a secular way to impart those values, so they're including everyone? Or just teach/coach at a private school.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

but I don't give up all of my rights to freedom of expression when I'm on the campus as a school employee.

You absolutely do when you are an agent of the state.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You absolutely do when you are an agent of the state.

LoL no, pretty sure even this activist court hasn't overturned Pickering or Tinker yet. There are additional restrictions and employee codes of conduct, but “It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Nobody said you give up all of your rights, but you do give up some of them.

I'm a teacher/coach and I would never do something like that because I'd never want a kid feeling coerced into joining such a prayer or feeling left out because they had a different faith.

If those values are so important, then wouldn't be important for people to find a secular way to impart those values, so they're including everyone? Or just teach/coach at a private school.

My argument isn't whether I would do something like that, it's whether it constitutes an official government endorsement of religion, and IMO unless it's compulsory it doesn't. And again, there's a large grey area when it comes to a coach leading something, but simply joining it would absolutely not cross that threshold in my mind.

As for the values themselves I think that's a larger debate, but we can all agree there's a whole lot of overlap between what religions publicly preach and generally accepted positive societal values, right? If hearing "Love Thy Neighbor" instead of just "Be a nice person" helps you be a nice person sweet.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

LoL no, pretty sure even this activist court hasn't overturned Pickering or Tinker yet. There are additional restrictions and employee codes of conduct, but “It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate.”

What would happen to a teacher who repeatedly used racial slurs at school?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What would happen to a teacher who repeatedly used racial slurs at school?

Which state and which slurs?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What would happen to a teacher who repeatedly used racial slurs at school?

Considering Brown vs Chicago Board of Ed found teachers could be disciplined for even one well intentioned use of the n word during a lecture instructing students not to use them I don't think it would go well.

But I'm reminded why I stopped engaging in political threads here and why many people have left. Have fun with your strawmen and misplaced righteous anger, I'll go back to lurking.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Considering Brown vs Chicago Board of Ed found teachers could be disciplined for even one well intentioned use of the n word during a lecture instructing students not to use them I don't think it would go well.

But I'm reminded why I stopped engaging in political threads here and why many people have left. Have fun with your strawmen and misplaced righteous anger, I'll go back to lurking.

You said you don't lose your rights as a government employee. Your own response just admitted you do.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Being uncomfortable is no excuse for preventing anyone from doing anything legal that you don’t agree with if it doesn’t adversely impact on your ability to live and prosper.

If on our breaks I led prayer for my workers in our office and one person complained to HR I'd be asked to stop or move it someplace more private. The football field, in this instance, is his place of work. He's still acting in his position as a coach. That's a problem.

If I were to make crude jokes in the office and 1 person got offended I'd be forced to stop. There's nothing illegal there, but the fact that 1 person was offended is enough to shut it down.

Something doesn't have to be illegal to be problematic.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Atocep

If on our breaks I led prayer for my workers in our office and one person complained to HR I'd be asked to stop or move it someplace more private. The football field, in this instance, is his place of work. He's still acting in his position as a coach. That's a problem.

This doesn't even touch his own prejudice against players that refuse to join said prayers. How are those players potentially going to be punished by not being Christian at a public school? And what about any muslim players he may have? What happens to them? How do they feel if 90% of the team prays to a religion that they don't believe in after each game?

[dubb93]

I should add that I have children that play football and are not Christian and I would be extremely upset if they felt forced to pray to Christ in order to continue playing. Like I would assert my right to self defense of my family upset.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You said you don't lose your rights as a government employee. Your own response just admitted you do.

Also Tinker involved students I believe, not teachers or staff. And there were still restrictions on their speech. Seems a bit different than teachers, who are employees of the state using taxpayer facilities.

Regardless, there are absolutely restrictions on free speech and free expression as teachers. A teacher would absolutely be fired for using racial slurs or making sexually inappropriate comments despite being legal speech.

[dubb93]

This country is shifting towards a "majority" that really isn't a majority in anything besides complaining.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

This doesn't even touch his own prejudice against players that refuse to join said prayers. How are those players potentially going to be punished by not being Christian at a public school? And what about any muslim players he may have? What happens to them? How do they feel if 90% of the team prays to a religion that they don't believe in after each game?

That's mostly what it comes down to. You have a person of authority who is employed by the state that puts students in a difficult position. Of course the coach won't say it's mandatory, but will you be treated different if you don't participate? Only the coach can answer that question. But his actions show this was more than just a personal religious issue.

It's similar to why companies have rules on dating subordinates. Of course you can say no to your boss asking you on a date. But you're left to wonder if you turn him down, will you be punished?

I'm looser on what I think students and teachers should be open to doing in school when it comes to religion. But I do think the line should be drawn at making students feel obligated to participate. If that's what you want, there are tons of private schools that offer those opportunities.

[larrymcg421]

Students should be able to and are able to (despite conservative lies about "taking prayer out of schools") pray during non-instructional time as long as they are not being disruptive. There has never been a court ruling otherwise.

[Flasch186]

The secret service stuff even if wrong was so minor compared to the bombshells today that of people want to grasp on to the one party where she admittedly said that she wasn’t there but heard, you’re just spun.

Today was damming and incredible. Truly historic sort of eyewitness stuff that is just unbelievable and clearly disqualifying of trump to run for future off if not criminal.

She was the eyewitness to 99% of what she testified to and the one part she said she ‘heard that’ is the one part that someone could speak differently to and that’s the thing of import? No way

She was incredible and brave


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[RainMaker]

The ketchup on the wall was really funny.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Reports are saying that both Secret Service agents in the car are willing to testify that the assault thing never happened. If that's the case, having her testify to that was a huge mistake. That is all the Fox News watchers are going to hear over and over again. Hopefully, that report is wrong.

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I agree it was a mistake. Even if she qualified it, its such a weird story there should have been some basic cross-check.

[Edward64]

re: Coach and praying mid-field. A no vote from me. If we allow this, we allow for other like religious activities and it'll become a cluster.

As long as it's totally voluntary, go ahead and take it off field (e.g. private room) or something. Don't think anyone would care if the coach led a prayer outside of public eye.

[Flasch186]

That defeats the purpose though

Doing it ‘performatively’ is evangelizing and allowing those curious, attracted, or implicitly pressured to meet in an easy to access place that they can literally see in front of them where to go.

My biggest problem with this isn’t so much the separation of church & state although that is a problem for me. The bigger problem is the hypocrisy in that the minute a Muslim wants to do the same thing the Christian’s leading the 59 yard line meet up will most likely be the ones working to end the prayer rug situation that is killing the sod.

Coincidentally this article from the guardian spells it out pretty plainly that the intention is to flip state to be before church:





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[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Some post-Dobbs movement on my PredictIt bet for Dems to keep Senate control. It has moved from .25 to .30 over the last couple days.

The Hutchison testimony has moved it some more up to .35

[JPhillips]

The Supreme Court’s Faux ‘Originalism’

[Flasch186]

Fwiw one of my Realtors just came in my office to talk about how the Ukrainian Nazi Army is killing their own people and has I seen it!?

This is the sort of shit that he buys into every time, I slyly reminded him about Wayfair selling kids online (which he bought into a few years ago) although his facial expression didn’t look like he got it.

My point to this comment is that in their echo chamber (OAN) it’s a truly deep pervasive brain washing

Also to add this guys a devout Catholic and staunch Republican… are you shocked at how easy it is to connect the dots? It’s not hard and those on the forum dancing in attempts to break the connection in their postings is simply gaslighting that fact. They are connected, easily connected, and consistent all too often.


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[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Fwiw one of my Realtors just came in my office to talk about how the Ukrainian Nazi Army is killing their own people and has I seen it!?

This is the sort of shit that he buys into every time, I slyly reminded him about Wayfair selling kids online (which he bought into a few years ago) although his facial expression didn’t look like he got it.

My point to this comment is that in their echo chamber (OAN) it’s a truly deep pervasive brain washing

Also to add this guys a devout Catholic and staunch Republican… are you shocked at how easy it is to connect the dots? It’s not hard and those on the forum dancing in attempts to break the connection in their postings is simply gaslighting that fact. They are connected, easily connected, and consistent all too often.


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Gab is the new home for Russia propaganda and since it's right wing only social media it just circulates in that echo chamber.

These people will literally believe anything on the internet from sites no one has heard of but nothing from CNN, MSNBC, ect is true.

The Ukrainians are Nazis and Putin has freed tens of thousands of children from trafficking since the war started and Ukraine is also a bio weapons test bed where the Biden crime family hides all their money and conducts their shady deals.

[Atocep]

Alabama cites Roe decision in urging court to let state ban trans health care

Further proof this wasn't just about Roe. They want to be able to ban any Healthcare they don't agree with.

My wife is as moderate as they come and thinks both sides overreact to everything. She actually said this morning that this Supreme Court will be the death of this country.

[RainMaker]

The stuff about ectopic pregnancies is crazy (especially since it is so common). They have to wait until the patient's vitals start to crash before they can deal with it. So you just wait around until you hit a danger zone.

I guess the other alternative is now sending people to other states if they think they can make it in time.

[GrantDawg]

Hmmm...this is a strange spread.

New Quinnipiac poll - Georgia

Senate
Warnock (D) 54%
Walker (R) 44%

Governor
Kemp (R) 48%
Abrams (D) 48%https://t.co/2HS63VHf0E

— Steve Kornacki (@SteveKornacki) June 29, 2022

[RainMaker]

Walker seems like a really bad candidate. I don't know a ton about Georgia politics but it sure seems like they keep shooting themselves in the foot with bad candidates.

Everyone seemed to hate Perdue and Loeffler was doing insider trading while the world burned. Walker sounds like he has advanced CTE.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Walker seems like a really bad candidate. I don't know a ton about Georgia politics but it sure seems like they keep shooting themselves in the foot with bad candidates.

Everyone seemed to hate Perdue and Loeffler was doing insider trading while the world burned. Walker sounds like he has advanced CTE.

They were able to hide him throughout the primary but they can't for the general and every time he speaks he sounds like a guy that took way too many hits to the head. It wouldn't shock me to see him win on name brand, but I honestly don't see him winning.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Walker seems like a really bad candidate. I don't know a ton about Georgia politics but it sure seems like they keep shooting themselves in the foot with bad candidates.

Everyone seemed to hate Perdue and Loeffler was doing insider trading while the world burned. Walker sounds like he has advanced CTE.

He has long been diagnosed with dissociative identity disorder, and it seems like every-time he open his mouth he is lying about something easily verifiable. I am just fascinated by the number of split ticket voters in that poll.