Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Flasch186]

Yeah, Arles, having the Presidential candidates there worked great! If what were hearing is true the GOP is having a frickin' coup against Boehner and stifling the bill's passage. Frickin brilliant idea to have the most partisan of campaigns candidates arrive to help....how? Who knows because they havnt helped out, at all and news channels (I know, liberal media bias) are reporting that the GOP is in revolt.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080926/financial_meltdown.html

A White House summit meeting called principally with the purpose to seal the deal that President Bush has argued is indispensable to stabilizing frenzied markets and reassuring the nervous American public descended into arguments -- mostly among Republicans.

The meeting revealed that Bush's proposal to combat the worst financial crisis in decades had been suddenly sidetracked by fellow Republicans in the House, who refused to embrace a plan that appeared close to acceptance by the Senate and most House Democrats.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson begged Democratic participants not to disclose how badly the meeting had gone, dropping to one knee in a teasing way to make his point according to witnesses.

And when Paulson hastily tried to revive talks in a nighttime meeting near the Senate chamber, the House's top Republican refused to send a negotiator.

"This is the president's own party," said Rep. Barney Frank, a top Democratic negotiator who attended both meetings. "I don't think a president has been repudiated so strongly by the congressional wing of his own party in a long time."

By midnight, it was hard to tell who had suffered a worse evening, Bush or McCain. McCain, eager to shore up his image as a leader who rises above partisanship, was undercut by a fierce political squabble within his own party's ranks.

But a session aimed at showing unity in resolving the financial crisis broke up with conflicts in plain view. McCain would not commit to supporting a plan worked out by congressional negotiators, said people from both parties who were briefed on the exchange.

McCain's campaign said the meeting "devolved into a contentious shouting match" and implied that Obama was at fault — on a day when McCain said he was putting politics aside to focus on the nation's financial problems.

Democrats differed.

IMO, whoever is screwing this up are idiots! This is going to hurt all the way down to the gutter on main street....gotta love those trickle down economics. They need a few more scary days on Wall Street again as a reminder of what we face.

[CraigSca]

Are there any polls showing what the people want as far as the bail out? I could have sworn I heard that the general public is 80%+ against this.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Are there any polls showing what the people want as far as the bail out? I could have sworn I heard that the general public is 80%+ against this.

That's an inaccurate summary of the actual poll. The poll that I saw that you are likely referring to had the following reponse numbers.

18% were for the bailout.
40% were against the bailout
42% felt like they needed more information

Granted, it doesn't show good support for the measure by any means, but there's a vast number of people that just don't know because they feel like the information hasn't been fully presented yet.

[JPhillips]

I'd like to see the presentation Paulson gave congressional leaders made public. If it's really a crisis, let the American public see the numbers.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'd like to see the presentation Paulson gave congressional leaders made public. If it's really a crisis, let the American public see the numbers.

Agreed. I'd like to see the lawmakers be just as open about what the hang-up is on the bill. There's a whole lot of finger-pointing, but no specifics being given on what the exact disagreements are. We've got a Congress with a 9% approval rating that has both sides pointing fingers at the other side. Worse yet, they have Christopher Dodd and Barney Frank doing the finger-pointing on behalf of the Democrats, two men who were the main members of Congress who resisted reform 5 years ago on this very issue. It all rings very hollow.

[JPhillips]

It's not Dems vs Republican as far as I can tell. It appears that House Dems, Senate Dems, Senate Repubs, and the White House are very close to an agreement, but a majority of House Repubs are blocking the deal. I'm not sold on a 700 billion bailout, but the plan Cantor and House Repubs have come out with is a fucking joke. It doesn't help that they're making statements like this:

"For the sake of the altar of the free market system, do you accept a Great Depression?"

Meanwhile McCain won't say what he supports, but reports are that he's at least sympathetic to House Republicans. Isn't it ironic that McCain may be placing his campaign into the hands of Republicans that trust him least.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's not Dems vs Republican as far as I can tell. It appears that House Dems, Senate Dems, Senate Repubs, and the White House are very close to an agreement, but a majority of House Repubs are blocking the deal. I'm not sold on a 700 billion bailout, but the plan Cantor and House Repubs have come out with is a fucking joke. It doesn't help that they're making statements like this:

Meanwhile McCain won't say what he supports, but reports are that he's at least sympathetic to House Republicans. Isn't it ironic that McCain may be placing his campaign into the hands of Republicans that trust him least.

You're quite naive if you don't think this will be turned into a McCain and the Republicans vs. the Democrats situation. Barney Frank already did that yesterday in his press appearance. It doesn't matter whether the Senate Republicans are on board or not.

Regardless, a deal will be done today. I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama in Mississippi 15 minutes before debate time preparing for a town hall format, only to have McCain ride in on a white horse 2 minutes before the debate goes live on TV and say, "Great idea! Let's have a town hall format!"

[ISiddiqui]

It most definitely has the feeling of a GOP Civil War. The question becomes, which side will McCain throw his support behind, because I can see defections based on the way the de facto leader of the Party (no one thinks that about Bush anymore, so it's McCain's role) leans.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It most definitely has the feeling of a GOP Civil War. The question becomes, which side will McCain throw his support behind, because I can see defections based on the way the de facto leader of the Party (no one thinks that about Bush anymore, so it's McCain's role) leans.

He is in a bind, because this is exactly the type of issue that he usually goes against the more hard-line of the party. He's going really tick a large group off either way he handles it.

[larrymcg421]

Seems like a weird battle with Barney Frank and George Bush on one side and House Republicans on the other, and everyone is waiting to see where McCain ends up.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

McCain ride in on a white horse 2 minutes before the debate goes live on TV

Racist.

[QuikSand]

First of all, I don't know what to think or root for on the bailout. I'm a pretty well-informed citizen, I keep on top of national and political affairs, and hell, I even teach economics. And I still don't know whether I like the idea of the bailout, nor do I really comprehend what happens if we do too little here. So, I'm honestly not vested in one particular outcome on this issue, I don't really even know where I stand on it.


However, I think the safest political step for McCain here is to be against the fix. Since he really has given up the mantle of straight talk and so forth, his campaign is best served by just criticizing the deal, whatever it is, and claiming that it wasn't well done, and voting against it. It's really just the same thing we see on the campaign trail -- voters are unbelievably stupid and ill-informed, and they can very easily fall for massive mis-characterizations of any firm position. So, don't have any firm positions. Say you are against everything anyone opposes, and that you're in favor of empty platitudes. Distribute your "plan" and say that all the details are there, but fill it with empty bullshit. That is how you win an election that gets decided by idiots, and that's what this is, face it.

If McCain and the GOP (to whatever extent) really think that orchestrating some sort of "be brokered the deal" on this mess is a winner, I think they are sorely mistaken. It might look like leadership to some. But it will put his face, rather than Bush/Paulson's, on this thing, and I don't think that's a winner -- popular opinion among the great unwashed is that a massive bailout of wall street is idiotic. The GOP's great strength is being part of that sort of chant, not trying to get into the details that might convince an attentive and informed audience that the chanting is incorrect-- the latter is the windmill-tilting domain of hapless Democrats.

I don't know what Senator McCain has in mind here as an endgame, but if I'm whispering in his ear, I advise him to throw the whole thing overboard. Say it's a bad deal, that it doesn't do enough for America, wrap yourself in the flag, and remind us you were a POW. And, if in your heart you want it to pass because you think it's the right thing to do, suck it up, you have an election to win first. Set that stuff aside for now.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

He is in a bind, because this is exactly the type of issue that he usually goes against the more hard-line of the party. He's going really tick a large group off either way he handles it.

But is this a problem? He's been ticking off people his whole career. To be honest, I don't think that hurts him as all. The party core will still vote for him because he's better than Obama in their eyes. I'm a moderate Republican and if I see a bunch of core Republicans pissed off at him, that only furthers his image of a 'maverick' and someone who challenges people in his party from a campaign perspective.

[Fighter of Foo]

Chris Rock on Larry King last night:

"It’s a pretty bad choice. I thouht Al Davis made the choice that’s how bad it was. She’s done 3 interviews and she is running for Vice President of the United States? Jason Lee has done more interviews promoting My Name Is Earl. i did more interviews today than she has to run for Vice President. Every time they let her talk for more than 4 minutes, you actually start feeling sorry for her.

It’s kind of like Kim Kardashian on Dancing With The Stars, all that ass and can’t shake it."

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Chris Rock on Larry King last night:

"It’s a pretty bad choice. I thouht Al Davis made the choice that’s how bad it was. She’s done 3 interviews and she is running for Vice President of the United States? Jason Lee has done more interviews promoting My Name Is Earl. i did more interviews today than she has to run for Vice President. Every time they let her talk for more than 4 minutes, you actually start feeling sorry for her.

It’s kind of like Kim Kardashian on Dancing With The Stars, all that ass and can’t shake it."

Yea! Another celebrity that believes they're smarter than the rest of the nation.

[Fighter of Foo]

See, it's funny cause it's true.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yea! Another celebrity that believes they're smarter than the rest of the nation.

You're right, the rest of the nation thinks that pick is solid gold.

[JPhillips]

The only thing I'd quibble with QS on is that there is a risk. If no plan is passed and the market drops by 1000 or 1500 points in October and the news is dominated by economic stories, McCain doesn't want to be the guy that stopped the rescue plan.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

You're right, the rest of the nation thinks that pick is solid gold.

I believe the actual breakdown is 45/45 give or take a couple of points with 10 percent undecided.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The only thing I'd quibble with QS on is that there is a risk. If no plan is passed and the market drops by 1000 or 1500 points in October and the news is dominated by economic stories, McCain doesn't want to be the guy that stopped the rescue plan.

If the economy continues to weaken and tops the news stories, McCain's screwed anyway.

[Butter]

Rest of the nation = 45%?

Oh right, I forgot to allow for the Couric/Palin interview bump. I bet that's up to 70-80% by now.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yea! Another celebrity that believes they're smarter than the rest of the nation.

Umm Mizzou, he's not saying or implying that at all. He's simply saying that she's done next-to-no interviews.

FWIW I think his point would have been stronger without the cracks on her "every time she opens her mouth" and the "kim kardashian's ass" comments. Just point out the irony of the fact that Jason Lee has done more interviews for his TV show than she has done, and let that speak for itself and be it's own humor. But then again he's Chris Rock, you almost knew he'd have to get a crack in there somehow.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Rest of the nation = 45%?

Oh right, I forgot to allow for the Couric/Palin interview bump. I bet that's up to 70-80% by now.

I'd be floored if some of these celebs didn't think they were smarter than the majority of Democrats as well. They're pretty high on themselves.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'd be floored if some of these celebs didn't think they were smarter than the majority of Democrats as well. They're pretty high on themselves.

+1

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

You certainly couldn't say that about anyone in this thread, either.

[cartman]

Wow, a columnist for NRO is calling on Palin to step down from the VP spot.

Palin Problem by Kathleen Parker on National Review Online

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by cartman

Wow, a columnist for NRO is calling on Palin to step down from the VP spot.

Palin Problem by Kathleen Parker on National Review Online

i'm sure in < 5 minutes we'll hear from the spin-meisters that she's the resident wackadoo "far-left" columnist for NRO.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm sure in < 5 minutes we'll hear from the spin-meisters that she's the resident wackadoo "far-left" columnist for NRO.

There's about 10 articles out there saying Obama should drop Biden (especially after this very tough week he's had). The margin for error is so small in this election, everyone is panicking (on both sides of the media/punditry). Both VP candidates will stay and neither will have much of an impact from this moment on. Palin got the right-wingers on board and Biden alleviated some of the initial foreign policy fears people had on Obama. They've each served their purpose and outside of the one debate (which I doubt will have much impact), this election is now on Obama and McCain only.

[Arles]

BTW, one theory was just stated on the radio. It appears that McCain is going to be against the democrat house/senate/Bush plan and work with House republicans on a bill that involves a treasury loan (not bailout) to these companies for the bad mortgages. McCain (it appears) will also be at the debate tonight no matter what.

So, the theory stated that the democrats/Obama will be faced with two options:

1. Accept the House republican/McCain compromise and have it be a loan instead of a bailout. McCain can then take credit tonight for brokering the settlement and saving the country from a $700 billion bill to the taxpayers.

2. Reject the House plan and face a debate where McCain says something like "You have a choice between the two of us. My Opponent wants to write a $700 million check to corporate business coming from your pocket. My plan involves a loan to these businesses where the American tax payer is not on the hook."

Either way, if it goes like this, McCain may have set himself up in a very advantageous position on this.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

However, I think the safest political step for McCain here is to be against the fix. Since he really has given up the mantle of straight talk and so forth, his campaign is best served by just criticizing the deal, whatever it is, and claiming that it wasn't well done, and voting against it. It's really just the same thing we see on the campaign trail -- voters are unbelievably stupid and ill-informed, and they can very easily fall for massive mis-characterizations of any firm position. So, don't have any firm positions. Say you are against everything anyone opposes, and that you're in favor of empty platitudes. Distribute your "plan" and say that all the details are there, but fill it with empty bullshit. That is how you win an election that gets decided by idiots, and that's what this is, face it.

"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

SI

[JAG]

And now, the moment you've all been waiting for...what's that? John McCain is going to debate? John McCain is going to debate! How's the leg feel son...er, pops?

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Arles

2. Reject the House plan and face a debate where McCain says something like "You have a choice between the two of us. My Opponent wants to write a $700 million check to corporate business coming from your pocket. My plan involves a loan to these businesses where the American tax payer is not on the hook."

If McCain says this, then it shows he fundamentally doesn't understand this issue. (No comment on whether Obama does.) And that's not to say that the 48% of the people who were supporting McCain before the debate won't continue to support him.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"

SI

This one deserves LOL credit. Kudos to you, sir.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by digamma

If McCain says this, then it shows he fundamentally doesn't understand this issue. (No comment on whether Obama does.) And that's not to say that the 48% of the people who were supporting McCain before the debate won't continue to support him.

I sincerely hope that he does not believe or agree with this.

On another note I truly truly hope the Obama camp comes out and smashes that 527 Melanoma ad. I had hoped W would do the same for the Swiftboat ads (he didnt) but I hold the same hope here for the Obama camp in regards to that despicable ad.

[timmynausea]

RCP has added Missouri to the toss-ups today as the latest poll has McCain +1. With 11 states within 3.5% margins, this should at least be a fun election night to follow on TV.

[ISiddiqui]

Have we done the latest polls?

CBS/NY Times: Obama 48, McCain 43 (LV)
Gallup Tracking: McCain 46, Obama 46 (RV)
GW/Battleground Tracking: McCain 48, Obama 46 (LV)
Hotline/FD Tracking: Obama 49, McCain 42 (RV)
Rasmussen Tracking: Obama 50, McCain 45 (LV)

[digamma]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

That is how you win an election that gets decided by idiots, and that's what this is, face it.

I was too optimistic in my previous post.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The only thing I'd quibble with QS on is that there is a risk. If no plan is passed and the market drops by 1000 or 1500 points in October and the news is dominated by economic stories, McCain doesn't want to be the guy that stopped the rescue plan.

My argument isn't that he should stop it... quite the reverse. The safest seat in politics is up in the peanut gallery, where you can jeer at the people who actually did stuff, and yell and scream about how they did everything wrong, and how your non-specific platitude of an idea is better (which it always is at that level of detail).

[Flasch186]

Republican Senator on CNBC says having the Presidential candidates come to Washington 'helped them refocus and move the ball forward.'

They just voted down (the Senate did) a new 'stimulus' package.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting. McCain's press release and information from the American Spectator both suggest that Obama's partisan attack where he stated that the current bill should pass and that no changes should be made resulted in a collapse of the entire meeting. He pissed off the House Republicans to the point where they refused to support the bill. The House Republicans refuse to pass the bill because funding is included in the bailout that would send money to a voting group that is trying to drum up support for Obama via voter registration. Obama reportedly had no interest in discussing a compromise.

Another thing to mention. Why don't the Democrats just pass this bill if they know that Bush won't veto it? They have the majority. If it's a great bill, they should be more than happy to put their name on it so they can take full credit when it works.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

They just voted down (the Senate did) a new 'stimulus' package.

I couldn't be more happy to see the end of yet another stimulus package. These bills don't do anything to fix the root problem.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I couldn't be more happy to see the end of yet another stimulus package. These bills don't do anything to fix the root problem.

we agree that the focus needs to be on the 'root' of the problem and agree that another stimulus package is not the answer.

but you probably think Im lying or something

[lungs]

At least the McCainiacs have a built in excuse for a poor performance tonight, or they can tout how spectacular a performance it was given the conditions if he fares well.

And you know they'll do it too.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'd be floored if some of these celebs didn't think they were smarter than the majority of Democrats as well. They're pretty high on themselves.

I think I'm smarter than most of the nation - should I lie and pretend otherwise? And you sure as hell think you're smarter than most (where's today's Sony press release? ).

[Big Fo]

I'm glad the debate is still on for tonight, I've been looking forward to it. On the news I think I saw a blurb on the rolling ticker that there might be some economic stuff in addition to foreign policy due to recent events, anyone else see something like that?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Interesting. McCain's press release and information from the American Spectator both suggest that Obama's partisan attack where he stated that the current bill should pass and that no changes should be made resulted in a collapse of the entire meeting. He pissed off the House Republicans to the point where they refused to support the bill. The House Republicans refuse to pass the bill because funding is included in the bailout that would send money to a voting group that is trying to drum up support for Obama via voter registration. Obama reportedly had no interest in discussing a compromise.

Another thing to mention. Why don't the Democrats just pass this bill if they know that Bush won't veto it? They have the majority. If it's a great bill, they should be more than happy to put their name on it so they can take full credit when it works.

Well if McCain says it's Obama's fault, that settles it for me.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

My argument isn't that he should stop it... quite the reverse. The safest seat in politics is up in the peanut gallery, where you can jeer at the people who actually did stuff, and yell and scream about how they did everything wrong, and how your non-specific platitude of an idea is better (which it always is at that level of detail).

I don't think he can credibly pull that off now. If he had stayed out of it that would have worked, but now he's set himself up as the most important guy in the room, so if it fails he's bound to take a lot of the blame.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lungs

At least the McCainiacs have a built in excuse for a poor performance tonight, or they can tout how spectacular a performance it was given the conditions if he fares well.

And you know they'll do it too.

That's convinient, but doesn't mirror the truth. McCain has always been expected to out-perform Obama in the debates. Any perceived Obama win in any of the three debates will hurt McCain.

FWIW.....I don't think McCain needs a whole lot of preparation time for the debate. By this point, his policy opinions are not a surprise to anyone. Obama is the more inexperienced politician and will need more prep for the debate. That should be a surprise to no one.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

That's convinient, but doesn't mirror the truth. McCain has always been expected to out-perform Obama in the debates. Any perceived Obama win in any of the three debates will hurt McCain.

what?! McCain, did you see his speech at the convention. Im not knocking him because I disagree with you 100% that most of the country expects him to not do well in the debates....which is why he is begging for a townhall style. Where do you come up with some of your statements when they go against conventional wisdom, the campaigns actions and statements, and the video evidence, etc.?

FWIW.....I don't think McCain needs a whole lot of preparation time for the debate. By this point, his policy opinions are not a surprise to anyone. Obama is the more inexperienced politician and will need more prep for the debate. That should be a surprise to no one.

Wow. A good speaker (as has been shown inversely during Palin's recent interviews) can improv there way through most speeches and interviews. a poor speaker will struggle through notecards, teleprompters, and connecting to the audience and will find themselves reverting to 'failsafes'. I mean, sometimes, facts are facts. This doesnt even apply solely to politics but almost to any type of speaking there is.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

what?! McCain, did you see his speech at the convention. Im not knocking him because I disagree with you 100% that most of the country expects him to not do well in the debates....which is why he is begging for a townhall style. Where do you come up with some of your statements when they go against conventional wisdom, the campaigns actions and statements, and the video evidence, etc.?

McCain has always been an extremely good speaker/debator when he isn't working off a script/teleprompter. It's certainly no secret that rehearsed speeches are his weakest point. As you mention, that was very evident at the convention.