Maximum Football???

[Toddzilla]

So let me get this straight....you lower the price and you expect more people to buy it...hmmmm, interesting...

Thanks John Nash, your Nobel Prize for Economics is in the mail...

[darkenigma510]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

So let me get this straight....you lower the price and you expect more people to buy it...hmmmm, interesting...

Thanks John Nash, your Nobel Prize for Economics is in the mail...

The point was they put the price up too high for a game that is:

a) "experimental" at best; and

b) doesn't compare in quality to other games at $50.

While it may sound obvious that lowering your price will increase sales, picking the right pricepoint for your product is critical, especially if you want to gain a loyal following as opposed to simply dumping the game on the market, hoping someone buys it to recover costs, then walking away from it.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

If they were smart, they would price this at 19.99 and I bet they would get a lot more sales, even from people who just beleive in helping out independent developers.

Back on the old Maximum Football board, before David found a game publisher, he stated he wanted a price point of about $30 for release. The price of the game is determined by Matrix Games, and not David.

I have stated repeatedly that Maximum Football would do much better with a $29.99 price point to build a user base.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by wade moore
Exactly. Just like his last jaunt through here he has ignored my post actually asking for him to show something concrete that shows the core of the game has improved.

Some screenshots that show any part of the game produces a semblance of realism (fine, you say the sim engine sucks - show us stats from a live game) would go a long way to build any semblance of credibility here. As of now, he just hasn't done that and has blatantly ignored requests to do so. As I said before, until he does I will continue to assume it's because the core of this game is still incredibly broken.

Once again Marauders posts in the thread, once again no screen shots. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Back on the old Maximum Football board, before David found a game publisher, he stated he wanted a price point of about $30 for release. The price of the game is determined by Matrix Games, and not David.

I have stated repeatedly that Maximum Football would do much better with a $29.99 price point to build a user base.

I don't think price is the problem...

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Thats funny...I read the same one and was thinking the exact same thing.

I guess it would take a complete rewrite to get the defenders to "chase the guy with the ball".

If a defender is set to read the play, he will follow the ball. Any time the ball crosses the LOS, all players will take angles to the ball as well.

The problem with the reverse is that the AI has to know that the ball was handed off twice, and the AI has to know how to read it and react to it.

It sounds simple, but it is more difficult to program the AI than it is to know what the AI should be doing.

While there were handoffs to TE's and WR's in FBPro, the game had many limitations on actually creating plays because the defensive AI could not handle them, and online leagues outlawed many plays that would break the AI because of this. Having a feature available in the game does not allways means it works, so until any AI code changes can be tested, this is a feature that will remain on the wish list.

I should note that I have advocated on both the public and private forums for the ability to hand off to TE's, WR's and SB's (CFL) along with the ability to run an option. Both programming time and testing time allocated to these additions are often the concerns that have not allowed these items to be placed in the game at this time.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

Once again Marauders posts in the thread, once again no screen shots. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

What do you want screen shots of?

The Maximum Football board has a league area, and some of the leagues have statistics posted on their links. Some of the leagues are using an older build because they do not want to reset a league midway through a season, but the statistics do show results from public release builds.

I stated before that I often do not have a public release version on my computer. While I am testing various areas of the game, the statistics can go all over depending on what I am testing. As an example, if I am testing the game AI against running plays, I will have skewed rushing stats. If I am testing changes in the sim game profile, those changes will affect the statistics as variables are changed.

I am also under an NDA not to post screen shots of non public builds. This is standard practice in the gaming industry, and most of you know from my posts that I am on the beta team.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Marauders

What do you want screen shots of?

The Maximum Football board has a league area, and some of the leagues have statistics posted on their links. Some of the leagues are using an older build because they do not want to reset a league midway through a season, but the statistics do show results from public release builds.

I stated before that I often do not have a public release version on my computer. While I am testing various areas of the game, the statistics can go all over depending on what I am testing. As an example, if I am testing the game AI against running plays, I will have skewed rushing stats. If I am testing changes in the sim game profile, those changes will affect the statistics as variables are changed.

I am also under an NDA not to post screen shots of non public builds. This is standard practice in the gaming industry, and most of you know from my posts that I am on the beta team.

Every time someone shows you stats from one of these leagues you claim "oh, that's an old build".

So, show us "good" stats from a current build, that's all we ask. If you want to link us to a link with league stats from a current build, that's fine.

[Taxt]

I've been thinking of buying MaxFB for some time now (even after reading this thread) but the price is too steep for me.

I'm only really interested in messing around with the play creator thing, but I'm not spending $50 for that.

This game really needs a demo (is one ever coming?), or a price reduction, or both.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Marauders

What do you want screen shots of?

The Maximum Football board has a league area, and some of the leagues have statistics posted on their links. Some of the leagues are using an older build because they do not want to reset a league midway through a season, but the statistics do show results from public release builds.

I stated before that I often do not have a public release version on my computer. While I am testing various areas of the game, the statistics can go all over depending on what I am testing. As an example, if I am testing the game AI against running plays, I will have skewed rushing stats. If I am testing changes in the sim game profile, those changes will affect the statistics as variables are changed.

I am also under an NDA not to post screen shots of non public builds. This is standard practice in the gaming industry, and most of you know from my posts that I am on the beta team.

Is this the Dick Cheney defense? I'd show you the stats, but they're a secret!

You should know exactly what we have asked for, since the request has been made at least a dozen times. Please post screenshots of a current build that show NFL rules, single game and 16 game season stats. If you can't produce the screenshots, please provide a link where we can get that info.

As much as we mock the game, if you can prove it produces close to real life stats I'd almost guarantee you'll get some sales from FOFC.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

If a defender is set to read the play, he will follow the ball. Any time the ball crosses the LOS, all players will take angles to the ball as well.

The problem with the reverse is that the AI has to know that the ball was handed off twice, and the AI has to know how to read it and react to it.

I still don't see how this would be different to any normal hand off. If all players take angles to the ball, they should still do so no matter how many times it is handed off. Does the AI really just make one angle calculation until the ball carrier is tackled? If that is the case, a recovered fumble would always go for a TD since everyone is still chasing the original ball carrier. If the AI can adjust to a fumble, there is no reason it can't adjust to a second hand off.

While there were handoffs to TE's and WR's in FBPro, the game had many limitations on actually creating plays because the defensive AI could not handle them, and online leagues outlawed many plays that would break the AI because of this. Having a feature available in the game does not allways means it works, so until any AI code changes can be tested, this is a feature that will remain on the wish list.

As I remember from the time, online leagues outlawed plays with certain pass routes because the pass coverage AI could be fooled. I don't remember any running play rules. Having said all of that, that game is nearly 10 years old. Can you really charge today's prices for a 10 year old game?

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Every time someone shows you stats from one of these leagues you claim "oh, that's an old build".

So, show us "good" stats from a current build, that's all we ask. If you want to link us to a link with league stats from a current build, that's fine.

I stated above that leagues have stats up. Some people here like to post links, but they won't post those? It is simple enough to do.

One reason I don't post things that SunDevil and others ask for is quite simply because I am not beholden to anyone here. I don't tell any of you what to post, and I expect no one to tell me what to post. People that have shown constant disrespect to me in their posting will not be given the time of day. People who ask intelligent and logical questions will often get replies if I can do so.

I do not work for Wintervalley Software or Matrix Games. I am a volunteer beta tester and volunteer board moderator. While I will defend the game from overzealous critics, I also consistantly ask for and give constructive criticism, and I advocate for the community. The main point is that I am trying to be part of the solution rather than the problem.

The reason I bring up that leagues are using an older build is that every once in a while there are small changes to the 3D game or the sim game that are not reflected in the public build. They are usually not drastic, but it is worth pointing out. The current build I have on my computer is at least three builds ahead of the public release. I am restricted by the NDA from posting any screen shots or in progress work from the build I am working with.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Marauders

If a defender is set to read the play, he will follow the ball. Any time the ball crosses the LOS, all players will take angles to the ball as well.

The problem with the reverse is that the AI has to know that the ball was handed off twice, and the AI has to know how to read it and react to it.

It sounds simple, but it is more difficult to program the AI than it is to know what the AI should be doing.

The reason it sounds simple is because many(with software backgrounds) would assume that any animated sports game such as football, soccer, hockey, etc. would have some sort of class/function which defines a GET_CURRENT_BALLCARRIER -type of function. Unfortunately, explanations like that make it sound like the game has so many spaghetti code issues strewn about that seemingly simple tasks and priortizations require a significant amount more rework than they might otherwise. I reallly dont mean that as a swipe, but I'm not sure how else to say it without just saying it...sloppy or overly hurried design equates to longer than necessary feature addition timelines in any software app(and I mean more than usual, no somewhat complex app is ever completely "optimal"). I couldnt say that for certain without really understanding the games codebase better, but it sure sounds like it.

While there were handoffs to TE's and WR's in FBPro, the game had many limitations on actually creating plays because the defensive AI could not handle them, and online leagues outlawed many plays that would break the AI because of this. Having a feature available in the game does not allways means it works, so until any AI code changes can be tested, this is a feature that will remain on the wish list.

Stating you dont have time to implement is a fair statement, as nobody can possibly know for sure except for DW...but similar to BrianD's(and others) comments, you cant justify with shortcomings of a 10 year old game for a modern "top shelf" price tag. When Matrix wakes up and
(A) requests DW to implement a timed demo.
or
(B) reduces the price to <$19.99
or
(C) implement a demo and reduce to <$29.99


I am certainly not a paid game developer, or any game industry expert by any means...but then, I dont think one needs to be to conclude what I've stated. That said, I really hope Max FB becomes something worthwhile and becomes a modern FBPro. It just doesnt seem like anything which interests me has changed much, and doesnt seem to be heading there either. And I wont spend $50 to have my outsider's opinion be more informed.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Is this the Dick Cheney defense? I'd show you the stats, but they're a secret!

Heh heh, considering that I believe Dick Cheney to be a traitor and a war criminal, I would have to say, "no".

You should know exactly what we have asked for, since the request has been made at least a dozen times.

I know what some of you have asked for. The problem is that most of the people asking for it are often condescending and rude. If that is what people want with this topic, then I have no cumpulsion to comply with any requests. Please understand and respect that as my well considered choice.

Please post screenshots of a current build that show NFL rules, single game and 16 game season stats. If you can't produce the screenshots, please provide a link where we can get that info.

As much as we mock the game, if you can prove it produces close to real life stats I'd almost guarantee you'll get some sales from FOFC.

Here are a couple leagues that have posted stats. I don't know which builds they use or which playbooks or gameplans are set up.

http://www.sportplanet.com/sbb/jerse...3/mfl/mfl.html

http://fbmax.com/mlf/mlfstats.html

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I stated above that leagues have stats up. Some people here like to post links, but they won't post those? It is simple enough to do.

One reason I don't post things that SunDevil and others ask for is quite simply because I am not beholden to anyone here. I don't tell any of you what to post, and I expect no one to tell me what to post. People that have shown constant disrespect to me in their posting will not be given the time of day. People who ask intelligent and logical questions will often get replies if I can do so.

I do not work for Wintervalley Software or Matrix Games. I am a volunteer beta tester and volunteer board moderator. While I will defend the game from overzealous critics, I also consistantly ask for and give constructive criticism, and I advocate for the community. The main point is that I am trying to be part of the solution rather than the problem.

The reason I bring up that leagues are using an older build is that every once in a while there are small changes to the 3D game or the sim game that are not reflected in the public build. They are usually not drastic, but it is worth pointing out. The current build I have on my computer is at least three builds ahead of the public release. I am restricted by the NDA from posting any screen shots or in progress work from the build I am working with.

I have been nothing but respectful to you in this thread.

You have touted many times in this thread that the current, public build is dramatically improved and has accurate stats.

We have just asked, on multiple occasions, for some actual data that backs that up. At this point M-F has burned so many bridges with us (and us with them) that we're not really inclined to dig through a bunch of leagues, post bad stats, only for you to come back and say it's an old build.

I'm just asking that you link us to one of these leagues that is using the most recent public build so that we can see this improved data. I can't go to a league and know that it is the most current build. Just give me a link to the stats for one of the leagues with a current build, that's all I'm asking. Then we can discuss the merits of the engine based on what it shows.

[wade moore]

For instance.

Here is the first league I click on (Shaggyra's)..

http://fbmax.com/mlf/mlfstats.html

I tend to believe that 23 TD's after 6 games is at least somewhat extreme..

1500 rushing yards and 20 TD's with over a 12 YPC average I tend to think is absurdly unrealistic.

I haven't done any hard number crunching (i'm sure others will here), but the stats from this league seem pretty far off still imo. And this is just the stats, it speaks nothing of the actual in-game experience which I know had many flaws.

Who has the official FOFC copy floating around at this stage?

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

The reason it sounds simple is because many(with software backgrounds) would assume that any animated sports game such as football, soccer, hockey, etc. would have some sort of class/function which defines a GET_CURRENT_BALLCARRIER -type of function.

I am not a programmer, but I would assume that to be correct. That is the case as the ball moves across the LOS, but defending against an end around or reverse requires better AI than that.

I am not sure how much programming it would take, and I have asked for it to be added to the game, but that is not my call, and David has to have priorities set.

Unfortunately, explanations like that make it sound like the game has so many spaghetti code issues strewn about that seemingly simple tasks and priortizations require a significant amount more rework than they might otherwise.

Considering that Maximum Football has features that were not intended by the original design plan, I would have to say that this is partially correct, and David would likely agree.

Stating you dont have time to implement is a fair statement, as nobody can possibly know for sure except for DW...but similar to BrianD's(and others) comments, you cant justify with shortcomings of a 10 year old game for a modern "top shelf" price tag.

As is often the case for independent developers, it is an issue of quantity of scales. The market isn't as large, and that requires more return on each product. In my opinion, it would be a good idea to drop the price and see what the market sweet spot is, but that is the call of the powers at Matrix Games.

And I wont spend $50 to have my outsider's opinion be more informed.

The electronic download is $39.99. That is $6 more than FOF, so it isn't too far out of line, but $29.99 is a better price point in my opinion.

Maximum Football was on sale for $29.99 at this time last season as part of the holiday sale. I have not seen it as part of this year's sale.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by wade moore

For instance.

Here is the first league I click on (Shaggyra's)..

http://fbmax.com/mlf/mlfstats.html

I tend to believe that 23 TD's after 6 games is at least somewhat extreme..

1500 rushing yards and 20 TD's with over a 12 YPC average I tend to think is absurdly unrealistic.

I haven't done any hard number crunching (i'm sure others will here), but the stats from this league seem pretty far off still imo. And this is just the stats, it speaks nothing of the actual in-game experience which I know had many flaws.

Who has the official FOFC copy floating around at this stage?

Yeah and maybe I am reading someting wrong, but how can you fumble the ball 3 times, yet lose it 4?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Yeah and maybe I am reading someting wrong, but how can you fumble the ball 3 times, yet lose it 4?

Good catch.

Like I said, I didn't look at it closely.

But my first glance from those stats is that M-F is still a far cry from producing realistic stats.

[MikeVic]

I like how some players have their name in all capitals, and some are normal. Can I change my name to MIKEVIC. lol.

[Antmeister]

Plus how often do you see this:
In 6 games, he averages almost 5 sacks a game and over 30 yards in sack yardage. Yet he is currently the 4th ranked passer in the league.

LastName

Team

Att

Cmp

%

Yards

Lng

TD

Int

Sck

SckY

F

FL

Rating

4

COVIL

EDM

163

97

59.5

1497

81

14

5

29

187

0

0

105.8

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Plus how often do you see this:
In 6 games, he averages almost 5 sacks a game and over 30 yards in sack yardage. Yet he is currently the 4th ranked passer in the league.

and he's <60% completion % ???

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by wade moore

For instance.

Here is the first league I click on (Shaggyra's)..

http://fbmax.com/mlf/mlfstats.html

Some thoughts:

*That Vovak is a pretty damn good QB. In fact, so is Boucher. Tom Brady would only be 3rd in this league right now, and he's having an unheard of NFL season.

*Apparently it is impossible for QB's to fumble, including Covil who has been sacked 29 times.

*I like how Mueller's YPC is so high it broke the stat column.

*Not a single FG attempted over 50 yards. Only a handful over 40.

*The game seems to let us know when someone is 100% in FG conversions, up until they get double digit FG's.

*No blocked punts, fair catches, or touchbacks.

*Interceptions don't seem to get returned very far. 6 yards is the longest among the top 10.

[Antmeister]

13 sacks in 6 games is impressive too.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Marauders

The electronic download is $39.99. That is $6 more than FOF, so it isn't too far out of line, but $29.99 is a better price point in my opinion.

ROFLMAO. Thanks for the continued humor you bring into this thread. Too bad that you can't produce any valid arguments to back up what you are trying to do. You say you aren't beholden to us, yet you act as if you are trying to sell more copies of the game. The best way to do that would be to produce concrete proof that the "current" build produces even semi-realistic accurate stats. Yet, you hide behind excuse after excuse. Still,there is no demo because Daivd knows that if people checked it out before hand his sales would go down. At least, that is a sound business decision.

[wade moore]

The more I look at this, the more it is obvious to me that there are still serious issues with the game. Again, paying $6 more than a game that is VERY solid and produces VERY realistic numbers is insane when you see this stuff.

[wade moore]

Dola:

And no matter how much you try the "I don't work for Matrix, so it's not like I'm trying to advertise the game" line, the point is you came here to defend the game and convince us that it has improved and is a good game now. If you come in with that purpose in this group, you need to bring more than a lot of statements without backing. This is a group that at times has absolutely ripped apart the game that spawned this board because, for instance, a RB could get 450 carries consistently, rather than a more realistic 375-400 - despite everything else being VERY accurate.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

ROFLMAO. Thanks for the continued humor you bring into this thread. Too bad that you can't produce any valid arguments to back up what you are trying to do. You say you aren't beholden to us, yet you act as if you are trying to sell more copies of the game.

I am not here to sell the game. I am here to discuss the game. Many of you are here just to bash the game. This is a FOF board, so perhaps I should have expected it, but at one time I believed that the kind of people that would play FOF were a little bit more mature than people that play Madden on their L33T XBOX. Perhaps that is not so.

Some of you may not believe this to be so, but I have had emails from game developers not associated with Maximum Football that basically said it is no good talking to people on this board because it is a lose-lose situation. They said the people here will believe what they want and bash everything else. My reply was that as long as some people wanted information, I would continue to reply.

[MJ4H]

I believe it. Has nothing to do with this, though. People here aren't believing "what they want" and "bashing everything else." They are believing what there is evidence for and bashing that. Feel free to change that situation at any time.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I am not a programmer, but I would assume that to be correct. That is the case as the ball moves across the LOS, but defending against an end around or reverse requires better AI than that.

I am not sure how much programming it would take, and I have asked for it to be added to the game, but that is not my call, and David has to have priorities set.

Serious question: Do you know how a defense properly defends against the reverse/end-around? More importantly, does Daivd? Because it doesn't sound like it. I am a programmer, and I know football, and honestly, developing a state for a defender to properly defend the reverse would actually be one of the more simple things to do. So simple, that it isn't something you program in, it is something the defenders should be doing already.

Backside defenders are responsible for defending end-arounds, reverses, cutbacks, etc. This is their default responsibility, to "stay home" until the play goes beyond the line of scrimmage. They don't even need to know that a reverse is happening for them to defend against it, they just need to carry out their fundamental responsibility.

So based on what you have said in this thread concerning the defense of the reverse in Maximum Football, I'm forced to assume that the defenders in MF aren't even doing their basic, defensive responsibilities, or else defending the reverse would just simply be something the defenders did by default.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I am not here to sell the game. I am here to discuss the game. Many of you are here just to bash the game. This is a FOF board, so perhaps I should have expected it, but at one time I believed that the kind of people that would play FOF were a little bit more mature than people that play Madden on their L33T XBOX. Perhaps that is not so.

Some of you may not believe this to be so, but I have had emails from game developers not associated with Maximum Football that basically said it is no good talking to people on this board because it is a lose-lose situation. They said the people here will believe what they want and bash everything else. My reply was that as long as some people wanted information, I would continue to reply.

A lot of people on this board don't even play FOF anymore, some never even did. This board is much more then just FOF. BTW, FOF itself gets picked apart here. This is a board that has many guys who take games serious, and look at all parts and break it down. M-F doesn't nee much looking at, the problems are obvious and quite frankly, funny. If M-F takes enough steps forward over time then you would see guys here who gave it credit for that.

This is not a case about picking on a non-FOF game, we are into and support many non-FOF games here. M-F is just currently a pathetic game. From beer tents to unrealistic stats and a bad AI. Sorry bud.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I am not here to sell the game. I am here to discuss the game. Many of you are here just to bash the game. This is a FOF board, so perhaps I should have expected it, but at one time I believed that the kind of people that would play FOF were a little bit more mature than people that play Madden on their L33T XBOX. Perhaps that is not so.

Some of you may not believe this to be so, but I have had emails from game developers not associated with Maximum Football that basically said it is no good talking to people on this board because it is a lose-lose situation. They said the people here will believe what they want and bash everything else. My reply was that as long as some people wanted information, I would continue to reply.

Except until today you haven't been providing any information. You've been asked to provide evidence of statistical accuracy for nearly a year and today is th first time you've posted anything related to that. Finally you did provide us some links and although the stats have gotten better, they're still not very close to NFL averages.

The price isn't your fault and I'll even give Daivd the benefit of the doubt and say it's not his either. However, MF costs more than any other football game for PC. For that extra money the graphics don't equal Madden, the stats don't equal FOF, and the career features are all but non-existent. What exactly do we get for the money? When an inferior product is overpriced, don't be surprised when people attack it.

Please stop with the pity party routine. People are tough on games over here, but they're also avid consumers of games that deliver what they promise. MF's problem has nothing to do with bullies at FOFC. The game is still in an extended Beta, but Matrix is charging as if it's the best, most polished game on the market. The only way MF will get better treatment is if the game improves drastically or the price is cut in half.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Some of you may not believe this to be so, but I have had emails from game developers not associated with Maximum Football that basically said it is no good talking to people on this board because it is a lose-lose situation. They said the people here will believe what they want and bash everything else. My reply was that as long as some people wanted information, I would continue to reply.

You are right, I do find this hard to believe. There are an abundance of game developers that frequent this board. A large number of posters here are also beta testers for many of these developer's games. It cuts both ways. If many people are pointing out flaws and picking apart a game, but the developer refuses to acknowledge these flaws, isn't that the flip side of the coin where people believe what they want and bash everything else?

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Serious question: Do you know how a defense properly defends against the reverse/end-around? More importantly, does David? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Yes, I know how to read the formation, evaluated threat assessments, understand the order of assignments, and decide on the best line of pursuit. No football game on the market allows enough depth in the AI to be able to program a player to go through all of the potential assignments.

The beta team members have discussed improvements to the Run Rush and Read command logic, but improvements are made in small incremental steps.

I am a programmer, and I know football, and honestly, developing a state for a defender to properly defend the reverse would actually be one of the more simple things to do. So simple, that it isn't something you program in, it is something the defenders should be doing already.

I agree.

How much the Run Rush command takes care of keeping the play inside and containing the edge, I don't know. We have not been given a live end around ability to check it out. I can't really get into it more than that.

Backside defenders are responsible for defending end-arounds, reverses, cutbacks, etc. This is their default responsibility, to "stay home" until the play goes beyond the line of scrimmage. They don't even need to know that a reverse is happening for them to defend against it, they just need to carry out their fundamental responsibility.

Again, I agree. The question is how much depth the AI has to know what assignment the backside defensive end or linebacker has. It isn't like the game checking the player stats and giving a certain percentage of a given result. In Maximum Football, the 3D has physical interaction between the players, and they have to be programmed in more depth the more detailed the plays become.

In man defenses, there also needs to be the ability to line up and shadow players that are run threats if the defense calls for it. It not just for reverses but for pitch outs and option plays.

So based on what you have said in this thread concerning the defense of the reverse in Maximum Football, I'm forced to assume that the defenders in MF aren't even doing their basic, defensive responsibilities, or else defending the reverse would just simply be something the defenders did by default.

The basics are there, but I am not sure if the AI is robust to go through the additional assignments. Again, it hasn't been a live feature to test.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Some of you may not believe this to be so, but I have had emails from game developers not associated with Maximum Football that basically said it is no good talking to people on this board because it is a lose-lose situation. They said the people here will believe what they want and bash everything else. My reply was that as long as some people wanted information, I would continue to reply.

This comment strikes me as funny because I doubt this message board is the driving force behind all independent games. While we have some great developers who pop up here from time to time, they all still take multiple avenues to sell their stuff and put their stuff out there to get reviewed. So I am not sure why you feel it is important to try to sell us on this game when you have a publisher that should be doing that leg work.

Considering that this game has been badly reviewed and criticized elsewhere for the few places they sent them, you have a huge concern with this forum as if we are the only ones holding out. Have you considered writing an email to all the review sites? Has there been a demo yet? Did you respond to all the negative replies to the promotional videos?

Since you did sign an NDA and don't have any of the public builds, why even bother? If you can't show us the latest and greatest stuff, you are bright enough to know that is not enough to reverse its bad rep. Did David make you angry again or is it Matrix?

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by cartman

You are right, I do find this hard to believe. There are an abundance of game developers that frequent this board. A large number of posters here are also beta testers for many of these developer's games.

Well, there it is.

It would be unethical for me to name them, and I'm not going to ask them to come here and get involved when they told me that it is a bad idea to get involved.

It cuts both ways. If many people are pointing out flaws and picking apart a game, but the developer refuses to acknowledge these flaws, isn't that the flip side of the coin where people believe what they want and bash everything else?

Certainly it is. As I have stated some time ago, David and I have had heated debates about game features, so I am not one to just sit on my hands. I ask community members to post problems with the game and give constructive criticism of features on the Matrix Games board. I applaud those efforts.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Well, there it is.

It would be unethical for me to name them, and I'm not going to ask them to come here and get involved when they told me that it is a bad idea to get involved.

LOL

I never once even hinted that I wanted you to name names. You are doing a great job building that strawman. I just said that I had a hard time believing you. I am sure there is at least one developer we can surmise that would make the statement you said.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

This comment strikes me as funny because I doubt this message board is the driving force behind all independent games. While we have some great developers who pop up here from time to time, they all still take multiple avenues to sell their stuff and put their stuff out there to get reviewed. So I am not sure why you feel it is important to try to sell us on this game when you have a publisher that should be doing that leg work.

I don't have a publisher. Do you have a publisher for FOF? I was unaware that you were receiving royalties.

Considering that this game has been badly reviewed and criticized elsewhere for the few places they sent them, you have a huge concern with this forum as if we are the only ones holding out.

Naw, but this thread was so nice and long and full of some good posts but also a lot of rubbish, so I thought I could provide some information for those with questions.

[SunDevil]

Screen shots?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marauders

so I thought I could provide some information for those with questions.

Information? You provide information like Fox News does - with a big giant dose of opinion and reasonably absent of actual facts.

You've been asked, oh, I don't know, a hundred times or more, to provide some kind of evidence that M-F isn't a complete sham when it comes to statistical accuracy. and you never have.

Then any number of other posters in this thread go out and find MF leagues, screenshots, and other things that have been posted that show what a joke MF is, and you cannot defend the product other than to say it must be an FOFC-bias.

You're pathetic.

The reason FOFC has a number of well-respected game developers on this board - The Marcs Vaughan and Duffy, Arlie, Shawn, Marcus, and Jim of course to name a few - is because they acknowledge that this forum isn't about bashing other games. It's about discussing the games under the illumination of realism and reasonable expectations.

M-F hasn't gotten bashed because we picked it out randomly to let loose on - it's gotten bashed because unapologetically it's a complete and utter steaming pile of shit, a travesty of a sham of a mockery of a simulation ( a traveshamockery if you will), and other sports simulations like FM, PureSim, BBCF, and FOF are made to look worse when mentioned in the same sentence as Maximum Football.

Oh, we also like to bash it because that hack Daivd Winter had some not-so-kind things so say about FOF and the people who play it.

[gtmarc]

Whenever I buy anything from Matrix Games, I was end up at the end of the deal feeling like the game was overpriced. Been happening for years with them for me. Of course, when that happens time after time, I get to be very skeptical about paying their prices.

[wade moore]

Marauders - you're up to your old tricks again.

You say you want to seriously discuss the game, but whenever someone tries to you go into victim mode.

I did as you asked, I went and looked at a league. The league had, as myself and others have pointed out, VERY skewed and unrealistic stats. This is the one of the major flaws that we have pointed to here with the game that you are defending.

Do you care to, as you said, provide information as to why we should feel good about this game or buy it with this sort of unrealistic simulation?

The whole point of when you came in was saying that the game was good and that we should buy it before we can bash it. Well, we like to look at what info is out there before we buy a game. The info that you yourself pointed me to shows that this game is not worth buying as far as I'm concerned, do you care to address that - or are you going to go to your normal mode and when someoen brings up serious issues and discussion just ignore it and claim that we are immature and bash unfairly?

Yes, we had a TON of fun last winter at M-F's expense. But the last several pages of discussion with you in particular has not been juvenile or immature (there may be a post or two that I'm forgetting, but overall) - it has all been an attempt at serious discussion with you ignoring the facts and requests for information that you say you're willing to provide.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Marauders

http://fbmax.com/mlf/mlfstats.html

I don't know if anybody commented on the provided league links, but I did see a couple of interesting items listed. First, Mr. Mueller of the Ottawa Rivermen is averaging 12 yards per carry over 128 carries. This is pretty impressive.

Fumbles is < or = to fumbles lost for every player except for one. I was going to say that the stat headings must be reversed, but the one guy that has the numbers right means that either his stats are wrong, or most of the rest of the league is.

Last interesting item is on the Toronto Maple Leafs team. The team has a total of 1491 passing yards. This is achieved my Mr. Bucher who has 662 yards, and Mr. MARTIN who has 1263 yards. For those disinclined to do the math, that comes out to 1925 yards. Either something is wrong here, or the rest of the team has combined for -434 yards...which probably shouldn't happen.

As this is a 10-team league, we probably shouldn't be looking for NFL-type numbers. Though even with a 10-team league, the numbers should follow the rules of math.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by BrianD

...Last interesting item is on the Toronto Maple Leafs team. The team has a total of 1491 passing yards. This is achieved my Mr. Bucher who has 662 yards, and Mr. MARTIN who has 1263 yards. For those disinclined to do the math, that comes out to 1925 yards. Either something is wrong here, or the rest of the team has combined for -434 yards...which probably shouldn't happen...

Wow.....good catch. The first 2 have been mentioned, but no one saw this one. Either Marauders isn't looking at the information he provided for us or he is choosing to ignore it out of blind loyalty.

[Marauders]

I have not looked at the leagues. I said there were leagues with stats up.

Either Marauders isn't looking at the information he provided for us or he is choosing to ignore it out of blind loyalty.

I don't police web sites.

I don't know which ones use 3D play or which ones use the sim. I don't know how the playbooks are set up, how the rosters are set up, or if there have been changes to the variables in the league files.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Wow.....good catch. The first 2 have been mentioned, but no one saw this one. Either Marauders isn't looking at the information he provided for us or he is choosing to ignore it out of blind loyalty.

Sack yardage maybe? That wouldn't be included in the individual stats but is included in the team's. At least in NFL it is so that is my point of reference.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I don't know which ones use 3D play or which ones use the sim. I don't know how the playbooks are set up, how the rosters are set up, or if there have been changes to the variables in the league files.

How could any of those variables cause the game to miscalculate simple statistics?

[Cringer]

Mr. HUNTER, punter for Portland, has a net punting average of 18.8 yards on 31 punts. Ouch, Portland should start going for it, screw punting.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I don't know if anybody commented on the provided league links, but I did see a couple of interesting items listed. First, Mr. Mueller of the Ottawa Rivermen is averaging 12 yards per carry over 128 carries. This is pretty impressive.

Forget Mr. Mueller, he should be in second place in rushing. Mr. ALEXANDER of Toronto, last on that list, has a 14. ypc. If he wasn't a backup to Mr. ZERR he would be dominating the league. Understandable though, Mr. ZERR averages a more impressive 4.0 ypc.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised though, they do play for the same team that has managed to have their non-starting QB's throw for -434 yards as you pointed out.

[Cringer]

This has probably been posted before but it's the first I have seen it.



Can anyone see the QB throw it out to the WR's? It happens twice in this video and I just think the ball magically appears with the WR. Maybe Youtube has something to do with it but I think not.

I love the way guys look when running, I just can't get enough of it.

The stadium owner really should think of replacing some of those stairs with seats, could increase attendance. SOme of the stairs aren't really needed anyways.