Maximum Football???

[EagleFan]

The first time I can see it quickly get there (without a real motion from the QB it seems) but the second time it just kind of materializes there.

Plus, they were listed as runs but at least the first one looked like a forward pass to me.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Cringer

This has probably been posted before but it's the first I have seen it.



Can anyone see the QB throw it out to the WR's? It happens twice in this video and I just think the ball magically appears with the WR. Maybe Youtube has something to do with it but I think not.

I love the way guys look when running, I just can't get enough of it.

The stadium owner really should think of replacing some of those stairs with seats, could increase attendance. SOme of the stairs aren't really needed anyways.

I love the kicker making his approach to the ball, stopping, and then kicking it from a standstill.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I have not looked at the leagues. I said there were leagues with stats up.



I don't police web sites.

I don't know which ones use 3D play or which ones use the sim. I don't know how the playbooks are set up, how the rosters are set up, or if there have been changes to the variables in the league files.

I knew you would do this, and said as much above.

Again.

You are here defending M-F as a good, solid, improved game. We are saying that we have seen nothing to prove that. You give us a link to check stats, we check them, they are not just unrealistic but sometimes blatantly wrong. Then, you throw that out the window because of how they run their league.

If you want to come here and make claims that it is good, solid, and improved you need to give us SOMETHING that SHOWS it, not just you saying so. You say you're not here to sell games, but clearly your reason for coming here is to try and tell us that the game is good - but you have to do more than tell us, you have to SHOW us in some way shape or form.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I don't know which ones use 3D play or which ones use the sim. I don't know how the playbooks are set up, how the rosters are set up, or if there have been changes to the variables in the league files.

It doesn't matter!

It's stupifying that you cannot grasp the concept that any game which relies on the user to do any of the following to produce realistic results:
* use the correct graphics card
* create the appropriate playbooks
* set the rosters manually
is a half-baked, poorly coded, incomplete sham of a product.

Seriously, just get the fuck out of here if you're going to keep trying to feed us that crap.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Sack yardage maybe? That wouldn't be included in the individual stats but is included in the team's. At least in NFL it is so that is my point of reference.

I looked at that, but the 2 QBs listed had a combined 100 (approximately) sack yards. I couldn't see the rest of the team, but I would assume they wouldn't combine for over 300 sack yards either.

[Apathetic Lurker]

I'm still impressed with the stadium full of empty..

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Marauders

I have not looked at the leagues. I said there were leagues with stats up.

I don't police web sites.

I don't know which ones use 3D play or which ones use the sim. I don't know how the playbooks are set up, how the rosters are set up, or if there have been changes to the variables in the league files.

Ummmm.....okay, so you just picked a random site to show us how good the stats are? And how does this how this affect bad statistics? Like how do you have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles? Bad roster?

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Ummmm.....okay, so you just picked a random site to show us how good the stats are? And how does this how this affect bad statistics? Like how do you have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles? Bad roster?

I believe it was an unfortunate combination of a typo in one of the playbooks, a down-rev'ed graphics card driver, and the total incompetence of the programmer.

[RomaGoth]

The stadium appears rather empty in the video. Of course, that could have something to do with the team playing (Detroit), or the owner is a buffoon who builds more stairs than seats....mmmm?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Apathetic Lurker

I'm still impressed with the stadium full of empty..

Would you pay to watch that?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Would you pay to watch that?

You mean you wouldn't pay to watch a QB who could teleport the ball to his receivers?

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

You mean you wouldn't pay to watch a QB who could teleport the ball to his receivers?

Some people would if the beer tent was big enough.

[BrianD]

To be fair, we would probably all be OK with a ball teleporting to the receivers in a graphical display of FOF action. Of course when you are playing out the games, it is hard to defend as pass that way.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Some people would if the beer tent was big enough.

Where would they put the beer tent with all the stairs in the way?

[watravaler]

I haven't purchased the game...but I appreciate what the developers are trying to do...

I hope the MF people who read this thread take the criticism in stride, improve the product, and create the best game on the market.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Would you pay to watch that?

Sure I would! I'm a glutton for punishment...

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Where would they put the beer tent with all the stairs in the way?

They could teleport the stairs to the parking lot

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by watravaler

I hope the MF people who read this thread take the criticism in stride, improve the product, and create the best game on the market.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>breathe<

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Oilers9911]

If Maximum Football was a game by a small developer/publisher and they were trying their best to make a good graphical football game then they should be commended for their efforts. However, the unending stream of bullshit and excuses not to mention the $50 price point leaves no room for cutting them some slack. Way back in the thread I posted wondering why all the piling on and slamming of the game was continuing. I have since seen the light, now I know.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by mckerney

I love the kicker making his approach to the ball, stopping, and then kicking it from a standstill.

It's more like he tries to kick the ball, bounces off, then runs up to kick it again.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I knew you would do this, and said as much above.

Do what? I haven't looked at the stats. You wanted stats that were posted by live leagues, and I pointed you to them.

Let me state this one more time clearly: I am not allowed to post screen shots from my build, as it violates the NDA, which is a legal document, and I am bound to it. Guys, you can get as negative as you want, but there it is.

You are here defending M-F as a good, solid, improved game. We are saying that we have seen nothing to prove that. You give us a link to check stats, we check them, they are not just unrealistic but sometimes blatantly wrong. Then, you throw that out the window because of how they run their league.

I didn't throw it out the window. I did state that I don't know the variables or dynamics of that league. The reason I say that is because mine practice games don't show stats like that unless I am using plays that I know the defense has not been set up to defend, but you know darn well that as soon as I would write that, I'd get a big "prove it," back from you and others.

You say you're not here to sell games, but clearly your reason for coming here is to try and tell us that the game is good - but you have to do more than tell us, you have to SHOW us in some way shape or form.

I came here to debunk myths and discuss what is good and what is bad about the game. If you want me to sell the game to you, that's not going to happen, because I don't work for Matrix Games.

Originally Posted by wade moore

The more I look at this, the more it is obvious to me that there are still serious issues with the game. Again, paying $6 more than a game that is VERY solid and produces VERY realistic numbers is insane when you see this stuff.

When I brought up that the FOF demo had unrealistic numbers when compared to the NFL, I was told that although they are on the extreme edge, they are within the NFL stats. That's fine, as a number crunching simulation should really do a good job crunching numbers, but they didn't look all that fantastic to me.

Maximum Football is not an NFL simulator. While I have supported that it should show NFL type stats, some leagues may not want that. They may want more scoring or more defense. When I say there are stats up for various leagues, the people here say it isn't realistic, but what are they comparing it to - NCAA, NFL, Madden, or whatever the league wants?
With FOF stats can be controlled by the engine. In Maximum Football, playbooks, gameplans, and coaching can be major factors in how the game plays. I am not about to go around and police leagues to see if they play the game like I want a league to be played. I'm not going to set up their defenses to make sure they can counter the sweep, counter trey, or the spread offense.

Right now, I'm testing some things I had asked David to add to the game for this build along with some items he had planned to update. This may take a while, but when I'm done, perhaps I can set up a small league and run some numbers. That way I'll know the variables set and the playbooks used.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by gtmarc

Whenever I buy anything from Matrix Games, I was end up at the end of the deal feeling like the game was overpriced. Been happening for years with them for me. Of course, when that happens time after time, I get to be very skeptical about paying their prices.

I am a long time wargamer, so it is nice to have a company like Matrix Games still publishing games. They also resurrect games like Carriers at War and Operational Art of War.

That stated, I agree that sometimes the pricing is high enough to price part of the market out of the purchase. The reasoning is that wargames are a niche market, and they have to be able to make a profit, but I'm not sure where the data comes from that places the market sweet spot at those price points.

Maximum Football is not a wargame though, so its market data wouldn't be the same anyway.

[dawgfan]

Hey Marauders, can you at least acknowledge the issues that have been pointed out in this thread as a valid reason why almost everyone here views MF in an extremely skeptical light?

Can you also understand why, without providing evidence that those issues have been adequately addressed, people are viewing your continued participation in this thread with a very cynical bent?

It's all fine and dandy to say that things are working well in your test build, but if you can't publish screen shots to back that up or point to leagues playing a build with better results, then don't bother posting about how much improvement the game has made until you have evidence to back up that claim.

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Hey Marauders, can you at least acknowledge the issues that have been pointed out in this thread as a valid reason why almost everyone here views MF in an extremely skeptical light?

Certainly, I am generally skeptical of computer games. Take a quick hop over to the Matrix Games forum and read some of my posts. Obviously you can't going onto the private board, but I do like to go over issues, and I take a lot of community input back into the beta forum for discussion. That doesn't even cover the many PM's and emails I receive.

That isn't the problem here though, as there are people here that have personal issues with David because he stated that doing a 3D game was more difficult than doing a text based games. They took that personally as a slam.

As some of you know, I do talk with developers of text sims from time to time, and all of them have indicated that doing a 3D game is much more difficult. That in no way says that doing a text sim is simple or easy, as that is not the case. Games like FOF with in-depth engines that use player skills and play types as variables produce realistic outcomes, and one should respect the programming effort put into them. Adding the commissioner and salary features make those products all the more impressive.

Can you also understand why, without providing evidence that those issues have been adequately addressed, people are viewing your continued participation in this thread with a very cynical bent?

I don't mind doubters. I address them often on the Matrix Games board. I do believe being rude or using foul language is out of line though, so I will have to ignore those posts. I hope you can understand that.

It's all fine and dandy to say that things are working well in your test build, but if you can't publish screen shots to back that up or point to leagues playing a build with better results, then don't bother posting about how much improvement the game has made until you have evidence to back up that claim.

Fair enough. Read my posts. What have I stated that is not validated? Did I ever say the game is 100% bug free? Did I ever say that the animation is as good as Madden? Did I ever say that there cannot be improvements? No, I have not stated any of that. I understand what the game is, what it does, what it does not do, and where it is going. I am here to answer questions about the game and to look at ways to improve it from a community point of view.

[Eaglesfan27]

Let us know when the beta patch or whatever your NDA is covering is actually released to the customers who have been waiting a long time for a patch. At that point, you should be able to post screenshots of all of these wonderful improvements you claim are in the game. Until then, expect people to view your "information" with extreme skepticism.

[BrianD]

I'd still like to know how you can have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles, and how a team can have 1200 passing yards while the top two quarterbacks on the team have 1600 between them...although now that I think about it, there is one way that would make sense. I'm not sure I want to give it away though...

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

How could any of those variables cause the game to miscalculate simple statistics?

The fumble stats are listed as an issue in the bug file, so those may have already been addressed. I have not checked if it has been resolved in the newest build. Some stat changes that were requested by community members are in line to be tested, so I should know more when that is completed.

I'm not sure what is up with the QB statistics for Toronto. There could have been a mid-season trade or there could have been a bug caused by a roster change, which I know did happen with that team.

I did have a chat with a league assistant commissioner, and he stated that the league was using an older build, because the league play is all 3D based, and they didn't want to have to reset anything. He added that some of the teams are still using the old default playbook, and that has caused statistical inflation.

One should note here that the old default playbook was created prior to zone and man defensive improvements in the game. Because of this, the zones are not as well set up as playbooks that are user created. That playbook also does not have as a detailed gameplan.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marauders

That isn't the problem here though, as there are people here that have personal issues with David because he stated that doing a 3D game was more difficult than doing a text based games. They took that personally as a slam.

As some of you know, I do talk with developers of text sims from time to time, and all of them have indicated that doing a 3D game is much more difficult. That in no way says that doing a text sim is simple or easy, as that is not the case. Games like FOF with in-depth engines that use player skills and play types as variables produce realistic outcomes, and one should respect the programming effort put into them. Adding the commissioner and salary features make those products all the more impressive.

This is a gross distortion of the issue at hand. Nobody here will deny that making a 3D game is much harder than making a text-sim. The way that David slammed text-sim developers though was distasteful, and when the product he released came nowhere close to matching either the statistical accuracy of a text-sim like FOF or having 3D graphics that matched games over a decade old, can you see why people didn't take too kindly to his insult?

I don't mind doubters. I address them often on the Matrix Games board. I do believe being rude or using foul language is out of line though, so I will have to ignore those posts. I hope you can understand that.

Sure, but can you understand that for about the last 1.5 pages of this thread, people like wade moore have been asking an a non-offensive way for info to show that the game has improved, yet you continue to not provide evidence?

Fair enough. Read my posts. What have I stated that is not validated? Did I ever say the game is 100% bug free? Did I ever say that the animation is as good as Madden? Did I ever say that there cannot be improvements? No, I have not stated any of that. I understand what the game is, what it does, what it does not do, and where it is going. I am here to answer questions about the game and to look at ways to improve it from a community point of view.

You have yet to answer a question that's been asked multiple times - please provide some evidence showing that the basic stat generation of the game has improved enough to not produce wildly unrealistic results.

I have no idea how recent the build is that generated the video linked at the top of this page, but I think it's safe to say that the animations, models and textures in this game are never going to be more than amateurish. That's not a killer - people here play text-sims, and would be happy even with just a basic "X's and O's" kind of display of the action like in the classic XOR NFL Challenge game, but only if the underlying engine produces reasonable results.

So far as I can tell, all you've brought to the table in this latest go-round is your claim that the game is improved but you can't show us any evidence yourself because you're under Beta-tester restrictions. Fair enough, but until you can provide evidence that the game engine is vastly improved, I don't think you're going to gain much traction here.

[SunDevil]

Screen shots?

[BrianD]

So I think the winning move here is to come back when things are fixed and show that they are fixed rather than give the reasons why they are currently broken and promise that they aren't in some private build.

People here bash everything that is broken and praise things as they are fixed.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BrianD

People here bash everything that is broken and praise things as they are fixed.

No no no - haven't you heard? We're all a bunch of unreasonable assholes who mercilessly bash the shit out of games for no good reason and developers are scared of us.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

No no no - haven't you heard? We're all a bunch of unreasonable assholes who mercilessly bash the shit out of games for no good reason and developers are scared of us.

Yeah I know, but I keep hoping if we get enough different people saying what I said (which I copied from a bunch of people), eventually it will sink in. People jumped all over Jim over FOF2007 stat bugs...and they were fixed in a month or two. After that, people were praising Jim like crazy (though some are still vocally unhappy about certain stats). MF has been out for how long still with simple calculation bugs? People don't care about excuses. Nobody has ever praised a developer for coming up with a good excuse. People also don't condemn developers for bugs that have been fixed.

This really is a simple formula. Fixed bugs + proof of better code = happier gamers. Not everybody will be in love with MF if the bugs are fixed, but it will be a strong step in the right direction.

[dawgfan]

Sure. But certain MF fanatics will never see it that way.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by BrianD

So I think the winning move here is to come back when things are fixed and show that they are fixed rather than give the reasons why they are currently broken and promise that they aren't in some private build.

People here bash everything that is broken and praise things as they are fixed.

I agree.

I don't think we're asking too much.

If you want to convince us that the game is improved (which, let's face it, if you want to gain traction around here you need to) then you need to show us improvement some how.

If that means it's a patch coming out in the road before it actually is improved, than wait to try and convince us until that is out and you can show us something from it.

If you're saying it's not in good shape for the public version, then don't tout what is being improved in private until it's what is available publicly.

That's all we're asking. Again, if this game were actually get to the point of being good, even though there are many M-F folks that won't believe it, a lot of people here would buy it.

[Rizon]

I have to admit; this Mauraders alias sure breathed some new life into this thread. Bravo to whoever created it

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I have to admit; this Mauraders alias sure breathed some new life into this thread. Bravo to whoever created it

Nah, Marauders is legit.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Nah, Marauders is legit.

Well his screen name may not be an alias, but I still think he is frontin for why he is here. I seriously think he has an axe to grind because someone isn't listening to his pleas. He often mentions how he isn't an employee of Matrix and how he often argues about stuff behind the scenes. So I am just assuming this is his indirect way of giving David and/or Matrix grief.

Why else would your bump the most popular thread on the board instead of starting a thread called "Maximum Football - Let's have a fresh start"? I mean when asked for stats, he pointed to some in which he knew would be heavily examined and when called on it, claims he doesn't police sites. Hell, you ask him to provide anything tangible and he pretends he doesn't know what you are talking about. Either GWAsFBA...etc took on a new identity and became a moderator for the Maximum Football forum or he is pissed about something and what to see people ridicule the game again.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by BrianD

So I think the winning move here is to come back when things are fixed

I've always thought that the winning move was not to play...

[Marauders]

Originally Posted by Mustang

I've always thought that the winning move was not to play...

That is only the case in Tic Tac Toe and Global Thermonuclear War.

[Marauders]

I am just going to run through a few of these in one post.

Can anyone see the QB throw it out to the WR's? It happens twice in this video and I just think the ball magically appears with the WR. Maybe Youtube has something to do with it but I think not.

The ball is thrown through the air. Maximum Football uses a physics based graphics engine.

The first time I can see it quickly get there (without a real motion from the QB it seems) but the second time it just kind of materializes there.

The game engine won't allow that.

Plus, they were listed as runs but at least the first one looked like a forward pass to me.

The game engine keeps track of where the players and the ball is. If the ball is pitched or thrown backwards, it is not a pass, as is the case in the real world.

The stadium owner really should think of replacing some of those stairs with seats, could increase attendance. Some of the stairs aren't really needed anyways.

This stadium is modified from the indoor stadium in the game, but the default indoor stadium does have aisles that are wide. There are fans in the stands, but the video is dark.

People jumped all over Jim over FOF2007 stat bugs...and they were fixed in a month or two. After that, people were praising Jim like crazy (though some are still vocally unhappy about certain stats). MF has been out for how long still with simple calculation bugs?

This assumes that the bugs you see at any given time were always there. Some are, but most are caused when things are added to the game by request. I've seen bugs that were squashed pop up again after code was changed to add a stat or change a rule because a league changed a rule in the real world. That is like taking the entire bug list from many versions of FOF and saying, "See, look at all of the bugs."

That is not to say that Maximum Football was not bugged at first release. It was, and I said so at the time. The community actually asked for the game to be released early and have bugs weeded out with a wider base. Go back and read the posts at that time on the board; that is what they wanted.

In my opinion, that was not a good move, because there would certainly be people purchasing the game that didn't ask for a release that would have to be cleaned up. Add that to the fact that David did listen to the community and add many features to the game over the first year which would lead to follow on bugs, and it makes the game appear to be more buggy than it actually is. It isn't bug free, but it isn't bug riddled either.

Prior to the release of 2.0, the game went into lockdown against additional features to try to rein in issues caused by adding more features. While there has been some small changes added after the 2.0 release, almost all of the new wishlist features will have to wait until the next major version of Maximum Football.

Also, one should consider that Maximum Football has three rules types that can be somewhat mixed and matched, and that creates issues on its own. Sometimes some code that was universal needs to be modified to take into consideration the slight differences in rule play. Beyond that, the game actually has a fourth rule type because David separated out many, but not all, NCAA rule variants from the NFL professional rules. This was a task that he was asked to do by the community, and he has been taking a considerable amount of time doing so over the past year.

Keep in mind that David is a Canadian. He doesn't see the differences in NCAA and NFL play as often as many of us here, and there are subtle rule differences that even most casual football fans are unaware of. When these are brought to his attention, he tries to set them right in the game, but that can cause other small issues as the code is changed.

You have yet to answer a question that's been asked multiple times - please provide some evidence showing that the basic stat generation of the game has improved enough to not produce wildly unrealistic results.

The game doesn't use stat generation to produce results - at least not in the 3D game. That is why playbooks and gameplans are important, as I have stated. There are variables, but they are physics and timing variables that affect gameplay, but they only indirectly affect stats.

If I wanted more scoring, I could change a few variables or boost a few skill attributes for the quarterback or give the running backs more speed and agility. The reason I cannot say what leagues are doing to get the stats they get is because I don't know which playbooks they use, how they set up the gameplans, or if they have changed any of the physics variables.

Jim uses means, standard deviations, and other statistical work to make FOF reflect an approximation of the NFL statistically. He can do this because the outcome is already known and the data is already there.

In Maximum Football, this can be changed and manipulated by the user. There is no predefined outcome for coach Johnny Doesan of the the Anyman Football League. While the game engine should not allow the user to go too far outside of the norm of football, the game is what one makes of it.

Well his screen name may not be an alias, but I still think he is frontin for why he is here. I seriously think he has an axe to grind because someone isn't listening to his pleas. He often mentions how he isn't an employee of Matrix and how he often argues about stuff behind the scenes. So I am just assuming this is his indirect way of giving David and/or Matrix grief.

First of all, I freely admit that David and I go head to head sometimes. I advocate for changes that I believe are good for the game and I advocate for the community. I will assume you all know that David can get a bit irritable at times, and that means debate sometimes gets heated. Considering I don't actually have to sit down and code the game, I believe he has the right to sometimes say no, although I will add that he often tries to add things in the game that the community believes to be important.

What you may not know is that Antmeister has his own axe to grind because he was repeatedly warned not to troll on the Matrix Games forums, and that didn't sit well with him. He also believes that I am somehow going to be stunned by his revelation that David and I sometimes debate issues in the private forum.

Does anyone here actually believe I would still be a board moderator at Matrix Games if I didn't have a working relationship with the game developer for the board I was moderating. Just because David and I don't always see things in the same way does not mean we can't both do our best to make Maximum Football a better game, and Maximum Football is a better game than it was a year ago. It is a better game than it was six months ago. It still isn't perfect, and it never will be, but it is improved.

Consider that FOF has been out for nine years. Madden has been out for much longer. Maximum Football has been out for just over one year, and it has a single developer with no help from Electronic Arts as the other two have had. It has taken time to make improvements, and it will continue to take time to make more.

Whether anyone here considers purchasing the game or not is up to each individual. I am not here to sell the game, and I am not going to ask anyone to purchase the game based on what I say alone. I am here to answer questions and discuss issues. Please take that at face value.

[wade moore]

What I'm basically hearing from you is that there is no attempt at realism with this game. That it is a game that approximately simulate the general actions of football ,but there is no attempt at actually producing realistic results - whether they be by CFL, NCAA, NFL, XFL, whatever standards.

If that is the case, I think M-F needs to be sold appropriately as such. If you look at the M-F site it makes you believe that you will be able to approximately simulate one of these leagues if you set the rules the same. My understanding at this point is that it is simply not the case. M-F is not sophisticated enough to do so. It can somewhat approximate football in a graphical sense on the field, but the actual macro results do not resemble football that we know.

That's not to mention the very significant statistical problems we saw in just one search of a league. You can blame new features all that you want. You can point to how long FOF has been around if you want. But bottom line, these kind of significant bugs do not exist and did not exist in FOF after a year of an individual release, even FOF1. You mention that FOF had the "benefit of EA" - well, for one, I'm pretty confidant EA never actually did any code for Jim - he still did it all himself, they were merely a distributor as Matrix is for M-F. For two, there were two versions of FOF before EA that did not have these significant problems.

The bottom line here, to me, is that M-F appears to basically be the video game version of the little shaking table football game from the 70's. While fun for some, it doesn't actually simulate the game of football - it uses basic football motions to present a game for its audience.

[Julio Riddols]

Considering Maximum Football has been out for just over a year but has been in development for 6 years and is still nowhere close to a decent game by any stretch of the imagination, and clearly not worth 10 dollars, let alone 50.. Should we expect the game to finally be something more than a uniform creation engine before 2010?

To me, the simple fact of the matter is a game developer should have higher standards when he sets out to create a game, as well as having more respect for his target audience. I wouldn't sell anyone a prototype airplane that would never leave the ground.

As for the video, it is abundantly clear that the first pass play is called a run even though it is a forward pass. You can pause the video and see it plainly. Secondly, I can see the ball in flight, but I don't even think a bionic Brett Favre could throw a football with that kind of velocity. How would it be possible to have a realistic result to any pass play, never mind the attributes of the players and the mixed rules of any given game, if the quarterback can throw the ball so fast that no one can react to it? In a graphical simulation, things like physics are paramount.. I am basically of the opinion that David has too much on his plate and needs to swallow his pride and admit that he alone will never be able to finish such a grandiose project.

I'll admit I haven't followed the game too closely, simply because I am not interested in something that is about as close to an actual game a E.T. was for the Atari.. But I am positive of several things - Maximum Football is still years away from being release worthy (IMO), has a developer with a warped sense of customer service at best, and a publisher that seems to have no idea in hell what they are selling.

As far as EA having anything to do with FOF, I think you can throw that right out the window.. The only thing it seems EA brought to the FOF world was fancy graphics and an NFLPA license. To me all they were looking for was ideas for features they could implement in Madden, as evidenced by almost all the additions to the franchise mode since 2001. I could be wrong about all that, but I do remember Jim saying something about having to completely rewrite the game when he made FOF 4 because of some issues with the old source code and EA..

I don't know, YMMV, but I would like to think I am a pretty lenient guy- I don't complain much unless there seems to be a real reason to do so.. But if I bought Maximum Football under the premise that I was getting a football simulation of any kind I would feel thoroughly ripped off.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

I don't know, YMMV, but I would like to think I am a pretty lenient guy- I don't complain much unless there seems to be a real reason to do so.. But if I bought Maximum Football under the premise that I was getting a football simulation of any kind I would feel thoroughly ripped off.

This is part of what I'm saying. M-F may be a fun, flexible football game for some. But to call it a football simulation is not accurate. For instance - NFL Blitz was a REALLY fun game. But, no one would ever claim it was a simulation.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marauders

Maximum Football has been out for just over one year, and it has a single developer

Nice try, Dick Cheney. MF has been in development for WAY longer than that. I'm sure you may recall some issue with promised release dates and such? MF may have been dropped into the bowl just over a year ago, but it's been ruminating for many years before that.

You need to research your excuses better.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Nah, Marauders is legit.

Yea and no. I remember he appeared on the Matrix forums when the game came out saying how awesome it was. When the criticism really started to ramp up, suddenly he became a "moderator". No chance he's just some random guy that happened upon the game, fell deliriously in love with it, and is now buddy-buddy with the developer.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Marauders

First of all, I freely admit that David and I go head to head sometimes. I advocate for changes that I believe are good for the game and I advocate for the community. I will assume you all know that David can get a bit irritable at times, and that means debate sometimes gets heated. Considering I don't actually have to sit down and code the game, I believe he has the right to sometimes say no, although I will add that he often tries to add things in the game that the community believes to be important.

Okay so you agree that coming to a thread with a history of all the bad business decisions was a way to get back.

What you may not know is that Antmeister has his own axe to grind because he was repeatedly warned not to troll on the Matrix Games forums, and that didn't sit well with him. He also believes that I am somehow going to be stunned by his revelation that David and I sometimes debate issues in the private forum.

Are you serious? When? Who? Where? And what trolling? You have any posts you can link to sir? Oh I get it, let's try to side track the conversation because what I am saying is true.

Does anyone here actually believe I would still be a board moderator at Matrix Games if I didn't have a working relationship with the game developer for the board I was moderating. Just because David and I don't always see things in the same way does not mean we can't both do our best to make Maximum Football a better game, and Maximum Football is a better game than it was a year ago. It is a better game than it was six months ago. It still isn't perfect, and it never will be, but it is improved.

Right so with you thinking that coming here is a lost cause, you are only here to sell us a game without any proof OR you are like I am saying, this is an indirect way to give the game some grief because you lost another arguement and yoiu are trying to appear like you're Maximum Football's pitchman.

Consider that FOF has been out for nine years. Madden has been out for much longer. Maximum Football has been out for just over one year, and it has a single developer with no help from Electronic Arts as the other two have had. It has taken time to make improvements, and it will continue to take time to make more.

Out for one year? You freely admit that you are still in beta after how long? And did you read the beginning of this thread? This game was supposed to be out when...again?

Whether anyone here considers purchasing the game or not is up to each individual. I am not here to sell the game, and I am not going to ask anyone to purchase the game based on what I say alone. I am here to answer questions and discuss issues. Please take that at face value.

Well I would like straight up answers, screenshots and a demo. All you have provided us with is political answers. Plus didn't you just say you couldn't say much with an NDA to prove that the game has improved? I swear, you are talking out of two sides of your mouth.

But thanks again for making this thread popular again. We will reach 300 pages before you know it, but of course, that isn't your goal. You are just here to peace and love to the non-Maximum Football purchasers.

[cartman]

Yet another example of MaxFB math.

Release date: March 3, 2006
Today's date: Dec. 18th, 2007

The difference in MaxFB land is "just over one year".

[Mustang]

Unlike Remo Williams, the adventure of this thread continues...

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by cartman

Yet another example of MaxFB math.

Release date: March 3, 2006
Today's date: Dec. 18th, 2007

The difference in MaxFB land is "just over one year".

I believe the new patch fixes that.

[Passacaglia]

What you may not know is that Antmeister has his own axe to grind because he was repeatedly warned not to troll on the Matrix Games forums, and that didn't sit well with him. He also believes that I am somehow going to be stunned by his revelation that David and I sometimes debate issues in the private forum.

But...I thought all of us trolled those forums. Why would we care about Antmeister doing it in particular?